DVC Response About Ebay Commercial Sellers

[waltfan1957]

I'm not really sure that I understand what you are saying here. I agree that the renter could make a lot of ressies with their points....but, I think what people were trying to say in this thread is that renters were upsetting the system by morphing points. This renter actually OWNS BCV/BWV points. I'm not saying I am happy about one person owning 18K points....that is against DVC rules as well...probably exactly for this reason. I am just pointing out that SSR owners are CONVINCED that people like this are causing ALL the problems....I don't think that is accurate.

Maybe you can quote some posts where posters are blaming SSR OWNERS and not DVC (i.e. "the system")?

sorry I dont get this post at all its not the ssr owners that are doing the most complaining its the bw/bcv owners saying we are taking there ressies when we are not its the renters messing it up by block booking as it has been shown on numerous occasions

 

[wdwstar]

The frustration caused is due to the fact that many contract owners that shelled out big bucks for their memberships can't get ressies for certain dates because other members are reserving large lots at a time and putting them on auction/rental sites.

I totally Agree !

 

[wdwstar]

sorry I dont get this post at all its not the ssr owners that are doing the most complaining its the bw/bcv owners saying we are taking there ressies when we are not its the renters messing it up by block booking as it has been shown on numerous occasions

I would like to say that SSR, BWV & BCV Members are not complaining
about each other, I believe the complaining is towards
"Commerical/Business/Profiting Members", and its not towards the average Joe members that occasionally rents out points or ressies. Not that i have anything against the name Joe, its just a figure of speech.

I believe we are getting away from what the true meaning of this thread.

 

[Anjelica]

that even if you only rent your points out only once or twice a year for peak times only (and not because you had a last minute emergency, had a pre-existing reservation and couldn't go) are commercial renters?

Maybe, again I am in the minority, but I thought I've read a few times here and there where folks say they book a week for their family and then use the extra points they don't plan on using to book prime weeks and then rent those out prior to getting any renters (again not due to last minute emergencies, etc.).

To me **and this is solely my opinion only** I don't view those that have 2000 points who rent them out during peak weeks any different than I view those that rent out say 250 points of their 500 points during peak week solely for the purpose of "making money".

 

[Muushka]

that even if you only rent your points out only once or twice a year for peak times only (and not because you had a last minute emergency, had a pre-existing reservation and couldn't go) are commercial renters?

Maybe, again I am in the minority, but I thought I've read a few times here and there where folks say they book a week for their family and then use the extra points they don't plan on using to book prime weeks and then rent those out prior to getting any renters (again not due to last minute emergencies, etc.).

To me **and this is solely my opinion only** I don't view those that have 2000 points who rent them out during peak weeks any different than I view those that rent out say 250 points of their 500 points during peak week solely for the purpose of "making money".

You are not alone in that opinion.

 

[tmt martins]

You are not alone in that opinion.

I'm right there with you guys I also stated this earlier in the thread.

They are USING Renters to pay for their DVC membership by booking at the 11 month window on peak desired weeks then waiting to rent them when things are filled up.

Someone here on the board openly admits they go for 5 days offpeak but book 2 weeks at X-mas for VWL at the 11 month mark just to rent on here and E-bay.

Same thing maybe just not as great of an impact but if the want to go after any they should go afte them all.

Anything not WORD OF MOUTH is using commerce to rent there for a commercial renter IMO.

 

[Groucho]

I got curious and did a little more sleuthing on our friend Mushpurple...

There is an eBay user called "mushpurple1" who has, on occasion, bought up DVC sales, judging by the feedback comments:
"Enjoy your wonderful stay at DISNEY OLD KEY WEST Resort"
"Enjoy your Disney vacation!"
"Pleasure to do business with Enjoy your vacation" (twice, bought two from the same buyer)
"PERFECT EBAY TRANSACTION--THANK YOU--ENJOY YOUR TRIP"

Looks like she may use her own accounts to bump an auction if she's not getting what she wants, and even give herself good feedback:
"Great Transaction! Past Pay and Good Communication!" -Seller: smw (she seems to have a thing for typos, as well)

Google's cache includes one of the older SMW auctions - surprise surprise! Mushpurple1 bought it! (Are we still supposed to believe that they've not the same person?) Thanks Google! Their cache also has some of the original mushpurple1 Disboard postings that she edited, including the infamous "We were going to be a smaller group, but not we are a larger one" (sic) one. (What kind of large group needs more than 18,000 points?!?!?!?)

I'm pretty sure that this type of shill bidding is against eBay rules. I wonder if anyone's brought it to their attention...

Mushpurple1 bought locations as recently as April, doing a Buy It Now on a Beach Club stay during Easter. Which was sold by someone with only 15 feedback who appears to be selling several DVC stays... the Squaretrade number is slightly different than smw's but maybe that's the number of the "family children trust"? The style of the auction is pretty similar, especially the large-font, multicolored, underlined, centered opening text. However, Squaretrade indicates that that person is "Armen Kasabian" so who knows?

SMW's descriptions linked to her feedback... guess that'll have to be changed now that it's private! And how will potential bidders like looking at completed auctions and seeing descriptions like "bite me"? And I think someone already pointed out that her descriptions still claim that the renter can call MS. It looks like the recent auctions that she wasn't able to change the text on have a private buy-it-now, so we can't see just what userid those were. (That may be a side-effect of having private feedback?)

Then there's the TripAdvisor comment... "I am proud to say that I purchased our rental from a lady on ebay. The rates for this room at our time of stay would of been about $1200-1500, but I only paid $500! What a bargain. I am very pleased. If you are interested, on ebay her seller name is SMW." Legit? Maybe. A shill? Maybe!

The only other juicy bit I could find was her trying to sell points for $12 a year ago on Talk About Disney.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next. Will she go back on eBay, maybe under a new name? Will she attempt to unload the points? We'll probably never get the full story... but over $02,000 in monthly maintainence fees is pretty hefty! She'll have to do something quickly or that "family children trust" will empty out pretty quick!

Seriously - the whole transfers thing really is a separate issue. With that many points, it's only a drop in the bucket if they grab a small number of points for $9 and resell them at a higher cost. The big bucks come from those enormous BCV and BWV point piles, and that's a trickier nut for Disney to crack. Do you limit the number of concurrent reservations? If so, how many? They don't want to impact the legitimate DVC owner who is planning a big family gathering at VWL and reserves a one-bedroom and three studios for the same busy week...

I think the only really safe option for DVC is to do it on a case-by-case basis, and start individually identifying the problem renters (and I don't think anyone would argue that the Welchslers, with their underhanded tactics, are problem renters), and go after them one by one, rather than trying to make a rule change.

 

[Anjelica]

I'm right there with you guys I also stated this earlier in the thread.

They are USING Renters to pay for their DVC membership by booking at the 11 month window on peak desired weeks then waiting to rent them when things are filled up.

Someone here on the board openly admits they go for 5 days offpeak but book 2 weeks at X-mas for VWL at the 11 month mark just to rent on here and E-bay.

Same thing maybe just not as great of an impact but if the want to go after any they should go afte them all.

Anything not WORD OF MOUTH is using commerce to rent there for a commercial renter IMO.

Good to know I'm not wayy out in left field by myself. If they want to stop commercial renting then yes, they need to STOP all offenders not just the big fish.

 

[Dean]

I understand that you feel that someone who has the points should be able to use them anyway they see fit ... and I agree with that ... but only to the extent of what was intended by DVC. I don't think that someone with 20k points should be able to book all the prime time slots for sale on eBay or some other real-estate website.

Overall we agree on much of the information. DVD's intent was to make money for Disney plain and simple. Much of the rest of the legal wording was required by the state to be included in the POS in one form or another. I know many here on DIS try to read too much into some of the wording but those that understand the workings of the state of FL laws and timeshares in general, know better how to understand the overall picture. Here is a quote from the POS that many would point to.

The purchase of an Ownership interest should be based upon its value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the Ownership Interest may be rented or resold.

Ownership Interests are offered for personal use and enjoyment only and should not be purchased by any prospective purchases for resale or as an investment opportunity or with any expectation of achieving rental income, capital appreciation........

Owners should not purchase an Ownership Interest based upon any expectation of deriving any rental or other revenue or profit therefrom.

Many would like to think this is a prohibition against renting, etc. All it is is a CYA section so that DVD can say they didn't promise you that a profit could be made or that you'd even be successful selling or renting.

And the following

Personal Use. ....Use of the Accomodations and recreatinal facilities of the Condominium is limited solely to the personal use of Owners or Cotenants, their guests, invitees and lessees...

It then goes on to include the "commercial renter" clause we've talked about over the years. To me this is a definition of personal use which includes leasing as personal use.

 

[LisaS]

The only other juicy bit I could find was her trying to sell points for $12 a year ago on Talk About Disney.

I think she has some connection to that website. There are posts by both Mush and Arlene on the Budget board here on the DIS encouraging people to check out that new website: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=911780&referrerid=93883 claiming they just "stumbled across it". About one third of the home page for that website consists of a large ad for Arlene's vacation home rental business.

 

[Dean]

Anything not WORD OF MOUTH is using commerce to rent there for a commercial renter IMO.

In todays society with the use of computes and internet, that is simply nuts. They can go after use of copywrited materials but that's a totally different discussion. Each of us would likely have a different definition of commercial vs personal. As I noted in my post above, there is info related to this in the POS, far more than the vague commercial renter clause. Actually the closest thing to a definition of WHAT constitutes personal use is the inclusion of ownership limits who's stated purpose is related to this very topic. So the closest we have to a definition would allow 5000 points a year to be rented. To take any action under this clause, DVC would have to have a formal definition of commercial renter and it'd have to be something basically everyone could agree was such, basically the lowest common denominator. And the way I read the info I have including the state statutes, it'd have to apply to everyone that rented DVC including CRO.

 

[Groucho]

I think she has some connection to that website. There are posts by both Mush and Arlene on the Budget board here on the DIS encouraging people to check out that new website: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=911780&referrerid=93883 claiming they just "stumbled across it". About one third of the home page for that website consists of a large ad for Arlene's vacation home rental business.

Very well could be; I had never heard of the site before and that's the only page I looked it. There are too many Disney sites to follow as is.

 

[LisaS]

Very well could be; I had never heard of the site before and that's the only page I looked it. There are too many Disney sites to follow as is.

Both mush and alwechsler have edited their posts on that budget board thread recently, but it's still pretty clear what their intent was. If you read Google's cached version of that thread, mush states that "Some of the new restrictions on the rent trade make it hard for me to offer what I have on here at times."

 

[Groucho]

Many would like to think this is a prohibition against renting, etc. All it is is a CYA section so that DVD can say they didn't promise you that a profit could be made or that you'd even be successful selling or renting.

It seems like we've been through this before...

Anyway, there's another section which clearly states that no money should change hands when renting/transferring/etc points. Whether or not that's just legal boilerplate, it is there and could be used against the commercial renters.

The paperwork does say that you're perfectly entitled to rent, so that's certainly not the issue.

 

[Dean]

Anyway, there's another section which clearly states that no money should change hands when renting/transferring/etc points. Whether or not that's just legal boilerplate, it is there and could be used against the commercial renters.

The paperwork does prohibit payment for transfer and I happen to think it's potentially enforceable. More likely, they'd just do away with transfers altogether which most points systems don't allow anyway. But is it only and specifically for transfers, not rentals.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Well... I have avoided this thread because I just didn't understand all the particulars involved. I have tried to catch up and read all the posts, but I just can't read them all. However, I think I now have good understanding of what is going on... Please forgive my novice take on this, but here we go. Commercial renting is bad... it sucks in all the good dates. Disney has been much too relaxed in preventing this, and now there is going to be a backlash. I like the blue card idea, but it isn't going to do anything for opening up peak dates for true DVC'rs. Disney WILL get this under control, but unfortunately (and to their blame) many true DVC'rs will be hurt. I think Disney is closely following this thread and will make some adjustment to their policy to reduce the impact on the true DVC'rs. It is easy to see and sometimes more than obvious who the commercial renters are, and I think Disney will focus on them first. This thread is unreal. Obviously, everyone has a different take on the situation. All I know is that we own a meager 220 points and want to be treated as true owners and don't want some businesses to reduce the inherent value (not even real value) of being a true DVC owner. I don't know what the best solution is, but Disney has finally awakened, and is starting to address the situation. Only threads like this will give Disney the information needed to formulate an ultimate solution, so I guess, let's keep the info flowing. That's all I'm going to say about that.

 

[simzac]

that even if you only rent your points out only once or twice a year for peak times only (and not because you had a last minute emergency, had a pre-existing reservation and couldn't go) are commercial renters?

Maybe, again I am in the minority, but I thought I've read a few times here and there where folks say they book a week for their family and then use the extra points they don't plan on using to book prime weeks and then rent those out prior to getting any renters (again not due to last minute emergencies, etc.).

To me **and this is solely my opinion only** I don't view those that have 2000 points who rent them out during peak weeks any different than I view those that rent out say 250 points of their 500 points during peak week solely for the purpose of "making money".

I agree completely Anjelica. Glad to see someone else feels like I do.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Good to know I'm not wayy out in left field by myself. If they want to stop commercial renting then yes, they need to STOP all offenders not just the big fish.

No... I have to disagree. There are TRUE DVC'rs and then there are commercial renters. Somehow we have to distinguish between the two. Renting to recover unused points is VERY different from selling them as a business by booking up peak dates. Very different.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Look... I said "that was all I had to say about that" and now I am caught up on this thread... and posted again. I have to stop this... I am not going to look at this thread again. Honestly.

 

[Deb & Bill]

that even if you only rent your points out only once or twice a year for peak times only (and not because you had a last minute emergency, had a pre-existing reservation and couldn't go) are commercial renters?

Maybe, again I am in the minority, but I thought I've read a few times here and there where folks say they book a week for their family and then use the extra points they don't plan on using to book prime weeks and then rent those out prior to getting any renters (again not due to last minute emergencies, etc.).

To me **and this is solely my opinion only** I don't view those that have 2000 points who rent them out during peak weeks any different than I view those that rent out say 250 points of their 500 points during peak week solely for the purpose of "making money".

I'm with you on this. It's one thing to realize you can't use your points and make a reservation for a friend or family member or even a complete stranger and to book prime time and sell that reservation. That reeks of commercialism to me.

It even bothers me when a member makes 14 reservations in one year, with 13 of them going to complete strangers. Why that isn't perceived as commercial renting, I don't know.