DVC Point Charts for 2011 - Post chart release discussion begins on Pg 14

[SuzanneSLO]

[snip]
I agree with this, it is when they lowered the minimum number of points, and people with small contracts began the Sun to Thur stay pattern as "norm" that the demand began beig thrown out of whack. Disney could have kept the 230 point minimum, and used ROFR to pick-up any smaller add-on contracts that hit the resale market, the impact to the average owner would have been much less.

Just to give a different perspective for those with less than 230 points, we have 175 points (a 150 initial minimum buy-in and a 25 point addon). We stay about 10 nights per year at BWV, which is plenty for us. As someone who stays a week plus, we were not effected in any meaningful way by either the 2010 reallocation or the 2011 reallocation.

I do think that there is an nudge in the reallocations to either make more owners indifferent to arrival date and/or encourage weeklong stays. By minimizing the Sunday check in bottlenecks and creating less need for housekeeping, this should increase the operational efficiency at DVC.

I also noted last year that there has also been a nudge to discourage members from changing to non-home resort at 7 months due to changes between same night values for same size units at almost every resort from and after 2010.

-- Suzanne

 

[Chuck S]

Lets also remember that in a "traditional timeshare", you get the same unit (room) every year for the same week. It is always there for you and only annual MF will change. But DVC is a "hybrid" timeshare that allows the flexability of use. This option of flexability is what enticed many of us to buy at Disney. Now after seeing what this "flexability" can do to our memberships, perhaps it is no longer a benefit that works in our favor as owners. When you buy you should be given a point chart that stays with your points until they expire. Adjustments made by DVC can be passed along to new purchasers, and just as Disney has ROFR on resales, they can have the right to adjust point charts on resales. The opinions of owners seems split on the 2011 reallocation. Personally I do not like it. I have 3 upcomming trips. All will cost more points. I have adjusted 2 of them to include weekend stays and they still cost me more points.

Keeping the same point chart by grandfathering existing members would not only be expensive, but would likely not allow the point charts to be in balance overall, legally. Imagine having several point charts (4 now for OKW) to work from for MS, and then meeting the legal requirements of total points for the resort.

For instance, not only would you have the formula at OKW of X number of days per season times number weekday nights, and weekend nights, times number of units of each type...you now add to that equation the number of variables because of the 4 charts AND the number of owners working from each chart. The system would be a wreck, as the charts would HAVE to be realigned constantly, as the number of owners for each version of the chart would constantly be changing, both from new sales, but from older members selling. Constant flux.

 

[tjkraz]

Will these changes benefit some Members, sure, but I bet that based upon todays vacation patterns, it will hurt more Members than it helps.

You are probably correct there...but that speaks to the severity of the problem. It's clear from the posts here that some people bought points for week-long stays. Many more (IMO) bought points for exclusive use on Sunday - Thursday nights. But unless there are an equal number of members who bought for exclusive weekend use, the resorts are going to sit empty.

As Sammy said a few pages ago, you can often call on a few weeks (or days) notice and have your choice of resorts for a weekend stay--particularly in One and Two Bedroom villas. Having dozens (hundreds?) of rooms sitting empty every single weekend is not healthy for a program designed to have year-round occupancy of 100%.

Last year when they moved points around, they were so busy selling add-ons and re-writing contracts that were in process, that they brought in temps from other Disney units to help screen the Guides telephone calls. It worked in 2009 and it will work in 2011.

I didn't buy that logic a year ago and I still don't buy it today.

Only a fraction of members will respond by adding-on. Some will borrow points...some will lop a day off their trip every year or two...some will reduce their trip frequency...some will occasionally stay in smaller villas...some will visit during a cheaper season...and so on.

If 500 current members do 25-point add-ons due to the reallocation, that's about 12,000 points sold. That number is small potatoes compared to the sales DVC stands to lose for decades to come as new buyers decide the value is no longer there.

Based upon the 2009 point charts, a minimum purchase of 160-165 points was adequate for an annual Sunday-Thursday stay in a Savanna View Two Bedroom in Adventure or Choice season. By 2010 it will take 200 points to make that same stay.

Month-after-month, DVC stands to lose future sales from people who no longer find DVC to be the value that it once was.

If the only goal is to even things out, why not just do it correctly one time?

Because the POS has a stated limit that points for a given night cannot increase by more than 20% from one year to the next.

 

[Greatfalls]

This is my first post on this discussion, but just to give my thoughts on Disney's motivation. IMHO, the main purpose of DVC is to get people into the resort to spend money elsewhere (parks, restaurants, shopping). I doubt that it is much of a profit center itself. This is pretty much the way Vegas operates. The changes over the last two years are most likely a reaction to unacceptable vacancy numbers overall at DVCs. For example, they probably found that vacancies were too high on Friday and Saturday, which could not be made up by selling the rooms. (Honestly, how many people would pay $1,000+ per night for a 2Br?) So they are rejiggering the numbers to get people to take more low-occupancy days, which would increase their annual vacancy rate, which brings more $ into the resort as a whole so they don't have to fire CMs or cut back on things like Christmas decorations.

 

[Brian Noble]

I am surprised people bought in thinking it was like a regular timeshare, with this certain week always being the same amount of points.

Lets also remember that in a "traditional timeshare", you get the same unit (room) every year for the same week. It is always there for you and only annual MF will change. But DVC is a "hybrid" timeshare that allows the flexability of use.

Fixed week timeshares do work that way---but very few have been sold in the last decade following that model. A few use a seasonal floating week system (Marriott), but most others are point-based. In particular, the point-based ones generally include terms that allow for point adjustments. I know for certain that Wyndham has such language, though as far as I know they've never actually done it. But, I am aware that they can, and I'm a little surprised that they haven't in some cases.

IMHO, the main purpose of DVC is to get people into the resort to spend money elsewhere (parks, restaurants, shopping).

I view it slightly differently. The main purpose of DVC is to (a) guarantee a near-term return on the very large investment of building new resorts, and (b) create a "captive audience" that is going to come back year after year, while being a little less beholden to economic pressures. Watching the bottom fall out of the travel market after 9/11 scared the devil out of Mickey---they had to close some resorts (parts of Port Orleans), and mothball one that was under construction (the unfinished half of POP). It is no coincidence that they have not started construction on a single cash resort room at WDW since 9/11, but have opened several DVC resorts in that time--and even cannibalized some cash rooms to do so at AKL and CR.

 

[Ramsfan28]

I'm not sure I understand that logic. I looked at the new point charts in detail. The total number of points hasn't changed for each resort....they can't. DVC is merely rearranging the already static number of points to make sure there is a more equitable distribution of demand throughout the year and seasons and weeks. I saw on the OKW point chart where some things went down in one area but up in another....that's how it works. I don't see how that effects the value of what I bought 12 years ago at all. If my time period and unit size changed for an overall week, then I would just change when I go.

Agreed and while I wasn't happy (I bought points based upon my normal vacation patterns), it could change again next year and some of us that are upset could be very happy again.

I don't feel like I have lost any value at all - I just might have to alter my vacation plans a bit going forward.

 

[TSMIII]

Hakepb,

For the GVs to contribute at all to offsetting the increases elsewhere they would have had to make close to ½ Standard view and even if they did the “count” is so low that the impact would be small. It is likely that the GVs gained points along with all the other sizes.

MroganMc,

If they will not give our the calculation, all that needs to be done is to file a fomal complaint with the regulation agency and DVC will have to supply them as part of the investigation, they are then subject to FLFIA standards and can be obtained with a little patience

Chuck S

Yes to do the formal calculation you need to have how many of each size and type of unit there is, I have an algorithm to do this that I made last year. Ayone have the “counts” of units at AKV???

Shamus

DVC cannot within the ”timeshare regulations” create points, if they want to or are just not incompetent to do the calculations they certainly can create points until someone challenges them.

bookwormde

bookwormde - Here are a couple of threads with the AKV unit breakdown in them.

LisaS catalogued all of the Jambo House units and their makeup AKV Jambo House unit map

wdrl has them by UY and has calculated number of points per unit based off the thread I started to show Kidani Village units declared. I'm not sure if the totals are for the entire AKV or just Kidani Village though. Perhaps wdrl can give us some detail on this.

AKV Kidani Village declarations thread

We would also need to know the base year DVC is using to calculate total points for the resort for a year.

One thing that may slow down the process is that unit sizes vary as wdrl has found, so not all units have the same number of points.

 

[Inkmahm]

I'm okay with the change. I just figured out based on our "normal" vacation pattern that our time at AKV will take 2 more points than before. Our BWV vacation will be 6 points less and our VWL vacation will be 4 points less. Net effect is we save 8 points per year.

Where it will likely cost more points for us is if we go to GCV. There we'd avoid the weekends if possible because too many locals are at the parks then. The cost per night increase for weekdays WILL affect us. We don't own there and won't travel there more than once every few years so I can live with the increased points there, too.

 

[DVC92]

Because the POS has a stated limit that points for a given night cannot increase by more than 20% from one year to the next.

In the POS for BLT, there is a clause that states the 20% limitation can be axed during special periods of high demand based upon Member use patterns as determined by DVCMC in its sole, absolute, and unfettered discretion. Obviously, this can't be violative of a state law. So, they might be able to get away with it.

 

[mom2rb]

So I just ran the numbers based on my families vacation usage. We go in September or May, for nine nights, spanning two week-ends. We get one or two bedrooms, depending on the number of bathrooms. Our points have come down every time. By as little as 9 points at AKL in a Savanah View one bed room in September, to as much as 34 points at BCV in May in a two bedroom.

 

[wildernessDad]

Was just told by a DVC MS CM that the standard view GV is at Kidani. Can anyone confirm?

 

[spiceycat]

not surprised - this is what come to expect.

think glad moving to Orlando (davenport) in a few months (hope). So although can't always stay at DVC resort can at least still go to the parks.


though about selling VWL and BWV since they are small points - but decided to kept them.

still have relatives who want to come - and staying 3 or 4 days is not a big problem they live in Georgia - if they want more - well guess they will need to stay with me.

 

[Muushka]

not surprised - this is what come to expect.

think glad moving to Orlando (davenport) in a few months (hope). So although can't always stay at DVC resort can at least still go to the parks.


though about selling VWL and BWV since they are small points - but decided to kept them.

still have relatives who want to come - and staying 3 or 4 days is not a big problem they live in Georgia - if they want more - well guess they will need to stay with me.

Congrats on the move to FL, Spicey.
Actually with the change in the lower points for weekends, if I lived in FL, it would be a great incentive to just go on the weekends.

 

[wdrl]

EDITED 4:45 PM 1/21/2011 to correct error in # of 2010 Choice and Dream season days. Thanks to Shamus for catching my error! Besides updating the second spreadsheet in this post, I revised some of the text, which is in red.

We assume that after a point reallocation that the total points remains the same for each resort. To test this assumption, I totaled the number of points required to book VWL for all 365 days in 2010 and in 2011. I used VWL for this exercise because the number of VWL accommodations is known AND VWL is not encumbered with different view categories.

According to several sources, such as dvcnews.com, VWL has 136 accommodations, including 20 studios, 27 dedicated one-bedrooms, and 89 two-bedrooms. For this exercise, I assumed all two-bedroom villas, whether they be lockoffs or dedicated, would be booked as a two-bedroom accommodation.

Previously, I had searched on the Orange County Comptroller's website and determined the total number of points allotted by DVD to VWL. As shown in the first spreadsheet, VWL has a total of 1,962,300 points. Although this piece of information is not essential in comparing the 2010 and 2011 point totals, it serves as a measure of how closely the point charts align with VWL's total point allottment.

I then used another spreadsheet to compute the total number of points required to book all 136 accommodations for all 365 Use Days in calendar years 2010 and 2011. On the following spreadsheet, the five booking seasons are broken out by weekdays and weekends, with the number of Use Days appearing in the first line of data. Note that the number of Use Days is exactly the same in the two years.

The Number of Points per Night is taken from the 2010 and 2011 point charts. This shows the number of points required to book each accommodation by season and day of the week.

The Number of Points by Season is the number of points to book all of the same accommodations by season and day-of-week. For example, to book all 20 VWL studios for the Adventure season weekdays, the formula is 20 (# of villas) * 13 (# of points per night) * 53 (# of Adventure season weekdays) = 13,780 points.

For 2010, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,965,636 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by 3,336 points, or 0.17%.

For 2011, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,963,094 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by only 794, or 0.04%.

The 2011 point reallocation has decreased VWL's total booking points by 2,542 points, or a decrease of 0.1293%.

Based on this exercise, I believe that VWL's points have essentially remained the same after the 2011 point reallocation. Even though some bookings have gone up at VWL (for example, a 5-night weekday stay in a studio during the Magic season went up 13.3%), there were sufficient changes in other areas so that the impact of the 2011 changes has been "point neutral." Unfortunately, this is probably of little comfort to DVC members who suffer the brunt of these reallocations.

Although this exercise applies only to VWL, I suspect that similar results will result when the other DVC resorts are studied.

If you have any questions about my methodology or data, please let me know.

 

[drusba]

Was just told by a DVC MS CM that the standard view GV is at Kidani. Can anyone confirm?

Certainly a mystery since all GVs at Kidani have a Savanna view.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

Wow!!! Can you do this for BWV?

We assume that after a point reallocation that the total points remains the same for each resort. To test this assumption, I totaled the number of points required to book VWL for all 365 days in 2010 and in 2011. I used VWL for this exercise because the number of VWL accommodations is known AND VWL is not encumbered with different view categories.

According to several sources, such as dvcnews.com, VWL has 136 accommodations, including 20 studios, 27 dedicated one-bedrooms, and 89 two-bedrooms. For this exercise, I assumed all two-bedroom villas, whether they be lockoffs or dedicated, would be booked as a two-bedroom accommodation.

Previously, I had searched on the Orange County Comptroller's website and determined the total number of points allotted by DVD to VWL. As shown in the first spreadsheet, VWL has a total of 1,962,300 points. Although this piece of information is not essential in comparing the 2010 and 2011 point totals, it serves as a measure of how closely the point charts align with VWL's total point allottment.

I then used another spreadsheet to compute the total number of points required to book all 136 accommodations for all 365 Use Days in calendar years 2010 and 2011. On the following spreadsheet, the five booking seasons are broken out by weekdays and weekends, with the number of Use Days appearing in the first line of data. Note that the number of Use Days is almost the same in the two years except that a Choice-season weekday in 2010 has shifted to a Dream-season weekday in 2011.

The Number of Points per Night is taken from the 2010 and 2011 point charts. This shows the number of points required to book each accommodation by season and day of the week.

The Number of Points by Season is the number of points to book all of the same accommodations by season and day-of-week. For example, to book all 20 VWL studios for the Adventure season weekdays, the formula is 20 (# of villas) * 13 (# of points per night) * 53 (# of Adventure season weekdays) = 13,780 points.

For 2010, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,965,152 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by 2,852 points, or 0.145%.

For 2011, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,963,094 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by only 794, or 0.04%.

The 2011 point reallocation has decreased VWL's total booking points by 2,058 points, or a decrease of 0.1047%.

Based on this exercise, I believe that VWL's points have essentially remained the same after the 2011 point reallocation. Even though some bookings have gone up at VWL (for example, a 5-night weekday stay in a studio during the Magic season went up 13.3%), there were sufficient changes in other areas so that the impact of the 2011 changes has been "point neutral." Unfortunately, this is probably of little comfort to DVC members who suffer the brunt of these reallocations.

Although this exercise applies only to VWL, I suspect that similar results will result when the other DVC resorts are studied.

If you have any questions about my methodology or data, please let me know.

 

[Chuck S]

For 2010, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,965,152 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by 2,852 points, or 0.145%.

For 2011, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,963,094 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by only 794, or 0.04%.

The 2011 point reallocation has decreased VWL's total booking points by 2,058 points, or a decrease of 0.1047%.

And that small of a difference could easily be accredited to the what DVC may use as a "base" year vs. the actual number of weekend/weekday nights in the calculated calendar years.

 

[dizfan]

We assume that after a point reallocation that the total points remains the same for each resort. To test this assumption, I totaled the number of points required to book VWL for all 365 days in 2010 and in 2011. I used VWL for this exercise because the number of VWL accommodations is known AND VWL is not encumbered with different view categories.

According to several sources, such as dvcnews.com, VWL has 136 accommodations, including 20 studios, 27 dedicated one-bedrooms, and 89 two-bedrooms. For this exercise, I assumed all two-bedroom villas, whether they be lockoffs or dedicated, would be booked as a two-bedroom accommodation.

Previously, I had searched on the Orange County Comptroller's website and determined the total number of points allotted by DVD to VWL. As shown in the first spreadsheet, VWL has a total of 1,962,300 points. Although this piece of information is not essential in comparing the 2010 and 2011 point totals, it serves as a measure of how closely the point charts align with VWL's total point allottment.

I then used another spreadsheet to compute the total number of points required to book all 136 accommodations for all 365 Use Days in calendar years 2010 and 2011. On the following spreadsheet, the five booking seasons are broken out by weekdays and weekends, with the number of Use Days appearing in the first line of data. Note that the number of Use Days is almost the same in the two years except that a Choice-season weekday in 2010 has shifted to a Dream-season weekday in 2011.

The Number of Points per Night is taken from the 2010 and 2011 point charts. This shows the number of points required to book each accommodation by season and day of the week.

The Number of Points by Season is the number of points to book all of the same accommodations by season and day-of-week. For example, to book all 20 VWL studios for the Adventure season weekdays, the formula is 20 (# of villas) * 13 (# of points per night) * 53 (# of Adventure season weekdays) = 13,780 points.

For 2010, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,965,152 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by 2,852 points, or 0.145%.

For 2011, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,963,094 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by only 794, or 0.04%.

The 2011 point reallocation has decreased VWL's total booking points by 2,058 points, or a decrease of 0.1047%.

Based on this exercise, I believe that VWL's points have essentially remained the same after the 2011 point reallocation. Even though some bookings have gone up at VWL (for example, a 5-night weekday stay in a studio during the Magic season went up 13.3%), there were sufficient changes in other areas so that the impact of the 2011 changes has been "point neutral." Unfortunately, this is probably of little comfort to DVC members who suffer the brunt of these reallocations.

Although this exercise applies only to VWL, I suspect that similar results will result when the other DVC resorts are studied.

If you have any questions about my methodology or data, please let me know.

wdrl, thank you for doing this research.

 

[wdrl]

Wow!!! Can you do this for BWV?

I'd like to think I could. But, I need to know exactly how many villas are in each of the two view categories at BWV, broken down by accommodation type. If anyone can furnish me with that information, I'll gladly crunch the numbers. That is one reason why I picked VWL for my exercise; all VWL villas have the same view and I knew exactly how many studios, one-bedrooms, and two-bedrooms there were at VWL.

 

[edk35]

We assume that after a point reallocation that the total points remains the same for each resort. To test this assumption, I totaled the number of points required to book VWL for all 365 days in 2010 and in 2011. I used VWL for this exercise because the number of VWL accommodations is known AND VWL is not encumbered with different view categories.

According to several sources, such as dvcnews.com, VWL has 136 accommodations, including 20 studios, 27 dedicated one-bedrooms, and 89 two-bedrooms. For this exercise, I assumed all two-bedroom villas, whether they be lockoffs or dedicated, would be booked as a two-bedroom accommodation.

Previously, I had searched on the Orange County Comptroller's website and determined the total number of points allotted by DVD to VWL. As shown in the first spreadsheet, VWL has a total of 1,962,300 points. Although this piece of information is not essential in comparing the 2010 and 2011 point totals, it serves as a measure of how closely the point charts align with VWL's total point allottment.

I then used another spreadsheet to compute the total number of points required to book all 136 accommodations for all 365 Use Days in calendar years 2010 and 2011. On the following spreadsheet, the five booking seasons are broken out by weekdays and weekends, with the number of Use Days appearing in the first line of data. Note that the number of Use Days is almost the same in the two years except that a Choice-season weekday in 2010 has shifted to a Dream-season weekday in 2011.

The Number of Points per Night is taken from the 2010 and 2011 point charts. This shows the number of points required to book each accommodation by season and day of the week.

The Number of Points by Season is the number of points to book all of the same accommodations by season and day-of-week. For example, to book all 20 VWL studios for the Adventure season weekdays, the formula is 20 (# of villas) * 13 (# of points per night) * 53 (# of Adventure season weekdays) = 13,780 points.

For 2010, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,965,152 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by 2,852 points, or 0.145%.

For 2011, the total number of points required to book all VWL accommodations for all 365 Use Days is 1,963,094 points. This exceeds VWL's allotment of points by only 794, or 0.04%.

The 2011 point reallocation has decreased VWL's total booking points by 2,058 points, or a decrease of 0.1047%.

Based on this exercise, I believe that VWL's points have essentially remained the same after the 2011 point reallocation. Even though some bookings have gone up at VWL (for example, a 5-night weekday stay in a studio during the Magic season went up 13.3%), there were sufficient changes in other areas so that the impact of the 2011 changes has been "point neutral." Unfortunately, this is probably of little comfort to DVC members who suffer the brunt of these reallocations.

Although this exercise applies only to VWL, I suspect that similar results will result when the other DVC resorts are studied.

If you have any questions about my methodology or data, please let me know.

WOW .....are you an accountant, math teacher, professor or do you just love math?? LOL