DVC Point Charts for 2011 - Post chart release discussion begins on Pg 14

[photobob]

Bob:

You can borrow those 10 points for a long time before you run out of points.

You are absolutely right, but I have a problem wanting to use more than my year's allotment for a five night stay! It is more likely that I would drop down in room size than fork out more points. One of the bad things for me is that I will be getting to a point in my life in the near future that will allow me to take more trips and when that time gets here my points won't get me what it used to!

 

[Dean]

The "flexibility" is a major selling point, so I do not see DVC contemplating to implement such a policy when they are in active sales, but I have read the 5 night minimum stay in my POS, and the ability to declare some holidays special holidays with minimum length bookings...

I think there changes they could make and have it both ways where they could still tout the flexibility. Plus most people that buy just buy because it's Disney, most aren't like us here analyzing everything to the nth detail. And even if they are, emotion will often win out. But remember that while somewhat connected, DVC and DVD are two separate legal entities with different agendas and different legal mandates. That their mission conflicts is not unusual. Another point we might consider is that they may have decided that HI is the last and this will make little difference anyway.

I agree with most of this. I'm sure they have some data that they are basing the changes on. You can make numbers say just about anything you want, and I'm sure they have numbers that say what they want them to say. It would be stupid legally to not have that.

True only up to a degree. I KNOW DVC and disney has a lot of occupancy data. That doesn't know they can predict the exact outcome of such changes but they should be able to be fairly close. Given that I feel they've over shot on some items, this is one of the reasons I wonder if we'll see something else to combine with these changes.

 

[Muushka]

You are absolutely right, but I have a problem wanting to use more than my year's allotment for a five night stay! It is more likely that I would drop down in room size than fork out more points. One of the bad things for me is that I will be getting to a point in my life in the near future that will allow me to take more trips and when that time gets here my points won't get me what it used to!

Which I agree with (although getting my husband into a studio will not be pretty).

So, if people like Photobob and I are possibly downsizing in rooms, I wonder if the larger accommodations (GV, 2 bedroom, 1 bedroom) will have an excess of. I imagine studios will be in even shorter supply.

I wonder what DVC will do to rectify that?

 

[Dean]

Which I agree with (although getting my husband into a studio will not be pretty).

So, if people like Photobob and I are possibly downsizing in rooms, I wonder if the larger accommodations (GV, 2 bedroom, 1 bedroom) will have an excess of. I imagine studios will be in even shorter supply.

I wonder what DVC will do to rectify that?

I doubt the % of times people downsize will be that great but even if it's a lot, there are only so many studios and they already tend to go before the 1 BR units. Thus I don't think a fix would be needed. That phenomena is likely what allowed DVC to put off the reallocation for years also, because if you have the points and can't get anything else, some would stay weekends that would not have otherwise. I love the sarcasm though when DVCMC is doing it's job as directed.

 

[Muushka]

I doubt the % of times people downsize will be that great but even if it's a lot, there are only so many studios and they already tend to go before the 1 BR units. Thus I don't think a fix would be needed. That phenomena is likely what allowed DVC to put off the reallocation for years also, because if you have the points and can't get anything else, some would stay weekends that would not have otherwise. I love the sarcasm though when DVCMC is doing it's job as directed.

Good point. When they run out, they run out.

I just wanted to say that yes, I was being sarcastic. But I also wanted to say that after reading the many posts to this thread 2 things happened.

1. I became infuriated with the condescension and sarcasm to those of us who find ourselves short of points.

2. After all of these posts, and I think the most recent awakening for me:

Other members were supplementing those stays in some ways and this usage was part of the reasons that forced the change. I was right there with you but realized all along that it was too good to be true long term and I am surprised it lasted this long.

you are right. This did last a long time and I was naive to think that it would never change. Peace?

 

[Brian Noble]

Here in MD, you can drive down in 1-2 nights. It's a lot cheaper to drive than fly, especially if you have a family of 4-6.

In terms of cash paid, yes. In terms of "true costs" (using AAA's or IRS' estimates of $0.40-$0.60/mile, depending) a lot less clear. Once you add in the value of your time, probably not, unless your time is worth extremely little.

 

[Dean]

Good point. When they run out, they run out.

I just wanted to say that yes, I was being sarcastic. But I also wanted to say that after reading the many posts to this thread 2 things happened.

1. I became infuriated with the condescension and sarcasm to those of us who find ourselves short of points.

2. After all of these posts, and I think the most recent awakening for me:

NO sarcasm on my part that I can recall, just honesty and reality. I certainly haven't intended to be consdescending but if one wants to take an honest view hat people should have known about the risk and that they were taking a chance, as such, so be it. It's also frustrating seeing people that should have known better whining about a change the the legal paperwork specifically covers in such a way as to attempt to blame the system. As I've said before, being upset over one's personal changes are OK, being upset AT DVCMC for making the change is not. IMO it is a black and white issue and personal affect should not alter the decision making process if the basis is sound otherwise.

 

[Muushka]

NO sarcasm on my part that I can recall, just honesty and reality. I certainly haven't intended to be consdescending but if one wants to take an honest view hat people should have known about the risk and that they were taking a chance, as such, so be it. It's also frustrating seeing people that should have known better whining about a change the the legal paperwork specifically covers in such a way as to attempt to blame the system. As I've said before, being upset over one's personal changes are OK, being upset AT DVCMC for making the change is not. IMO it is a black and white issue and personal affect should not alter the decision making process if the basis is sound otherwise.

Dean, I did not mean to imply that you were responsible for my feelings. Many other posters contributed to the effort, believe me.

I guess I just need to take back the peace . I didn't mean to start it all over again.

 

[BroganMc]

That it quite a blanket statement. Do you know for a fact they don't have true statistic and data to warrant a change? I would certainly bet that they do, considering they collect data on almost everything else. Just because they choose not to publish the data publicly does not mean it does not exist, simply that they consider proprietary, as do other vacation venues. A visit to Celebration would likely turn up some data, but they wouldn't let you copy or disseminate it to everyone.

Ok, I should have explicitly added the phrase "DVC owners are not made privy to supporting stastical data unless they enter the Cone of Silence". It's the same difference, IMHO, for the purposes of a board post.

This board (and no other I've visited) has more than anecdotal evidence that is at best conflicting. Requests for data from Guest Satisfaction give you no answers. All we have as evidence is DVC's word that they have data but they won't share it.

My point remains the same, with the absence of any factual data the DVC member can't begin to factor the company's truthfullness into their equation of whether the program currently works for them. There is no evidence (shared with us) that confirms nor denies their truthfullness on this issue.

One of the things I think a lot of members (particular the point short) are debating is whether the company will roll out even more changes for 2012? DVC won't tell us. That has a lot of folks getting edgy because they are loosing their trust in the company. Sure, maybe they have enough points to weather this point increase, can shave off a night, downsize a unit, bank/borrow to make up the difference. But what about the next point increase?

That's why I keep hammering on the reliability angle of point reallocation. First thing it does is hurt potential sales. Buyers get turned away. Then it brushes off smaller investment owners. At some point, if the company is not careful, it could turn off the middle investors as well. Then the bottom falls out. The disappointing thing is all that could be solved if MS just talked to members and explained themselves more often. Didn't someone point out that before the '96 reallocation, MS told members one would come if more weekend use wasn't seen? Where was the fair warning for this in 2008 or 2007? For that matter, why didn't they bother telling us last year that there would be another reallocation this one? Their silence on whether this is the last year of reallocation has me worried there will be another in 2012. Of course, I'm a middle to high investor so I'll probably stick around through a few more quakes.

 

[Dean]

Dean, I did not mean to imply that you were responsible for my feelings. Many other posters contributed to the effort, believe me.

I guess I just need to take back the peace . I didn't mean to start it all over again.

It's cool. Sometimes my cold, factual method of posting rubs people the wrong way (andat times implies I'm not sympathetic when I am), esp if they are looking at things more in an emotional line of thinking.

 

[BroganMc]

In terms of cash paid, yes. In terms of "true costs" (using AAA's or IRS' estimates of $0.40-$0.60/mile, depending) a lot less clear. Once you add in the value of your time, probably not, unless your time is worth extremely little.

You're forgetting the value of being able to take all your stuff with you in your vehicle as well as avoid paying the car rental fee.

For a lot of folks, they can take a lot more on a car trip than plane ride, what with all the baggage fees and extra security.

 

[Brian Noble]

You're forgetting the value of being able to take all your stuff with you in your vehicle as well as avoid paying the car rental fee.

No, I'm including rental car costs as well. I just did this computation a week ago in the Transportation forum. My round trip drive, using IRS reimbursement rate, is about $1270 and four days' worth of drive time. Add two nights hotel: about $150-200. Round trip airfare, including enough luggage for the four of us, runs about $1200 most of the year. The rental car is another $250-300 (usually less).

So, for me, it's practically break-even, ignoring time saved (flying wins) and capacity to haul stuff (driving wins). But, with a 1-2BR unit's equipment and washer/dryer, there's no need to take much down at all. And while we all value our time differently, my wife is an independent contractor and I have a consulting business on the side. So, we can put a very precise dollar figure on that 2.5 days saved, and it is substantial.

 

[BroganMc]

No, I'm including rental car costs as well. I just did this computation a week ago in the Transportation forum. My round trip drive, using IRS reimbursement rate, is about $1270 and four days' worth of drive time. Add two nights hotel: about $150-200. Round trip airfare, including enough luggage for the four of us, runs about $1200 most of the year. The rental car is another $250-300 (usually less).

So, for me, it's practically break-even, ignoring time saved (flying wins) and capacity to haul stuff (driving wins). But, with a 1-2BR unit's equipment and washer/dryer, there's no need to take much down at all. And while we all value our time differently, my wife is an independent contractor and I have a consulting business on the side. So, we can put a very precise dollar figure on that 2.5 days saved, and it is substantial.

Fair enough. Unfortunately your calculations don't work as well for me or my brother. He has a family of 6 which makes driving much more preferable. They save on food costs by bringing supplies from CostCo, can split drive time between he and his wife so can shave a day off the travel, and can carry much more luggage cheaply.

My calculations are affected by my HA needs. For instance, car rentals for me work out to $100 per day (yes that's the going rate for a wheelchair minivan, and yes that's why when I fly down I use Disney transportation exclusively).

Pay $150-$200 for a hotel on the drive through the Carolinas & Georgia? Where are you staying? It's more like $59-$99. One night needed only to make the 900 mile drive from MD or points around. 450 miles per day is average. Some do it in one 18 hour drive.

So while it may be a wash for you, it isn't so even in at least two cases. If we're talking about any member within a day's drive of Orlando, I'm guessing that would make 3 cases.

 

[bookwormde]

I got my answer about Kidani and the reallocation. I talked to a very nice person who is deeply involved in the point reallocation process.

Here is is the information was given.

DVD does not differentiate classes of rooms when they do their sales filings it is just dedicated studios, dedicated 1brs, 2 bedrooms (both dedicated and splitable and GVs). I have asked for a copy of the initial filling to verify this.

After I finished talking I realized that as a 2 phase resort it is hard to fully understand how they set the total number of points at Kidani without considering the view since the point charts for Jambo were just extended to Kidani.

DVC creates the initial charts bases on the total number of points and their best interpretation of what the room categories should be.

Again since AKV is a 2 phase project I am having a hard time figuring this since the room type ratios are very different between the 2 resorts how DVD could do this without looking at room type and the chart not have to change the room point charts at the opening of Kidani. I believe that the person I talked to was sincere in the belief that this information given by DVD about just assigning point per 2br irregardless of view was accurate, but I have my doubt that that is technically possible and not have to change the charts at the opening of Kidani. This is critical to DVDs responsibility in the matter. I will query the person I have been talking to about this issue.

As a tidbit there were rooms, which change in Jambo also. (my guess would likely be 5210 to 5222 changing from SV to standard.

I have also requested the calculations for the reallocation.

I also got the clearest explanations of transferring (although I still had examples which were unclear) I will post this in a separate thread.

I emphasized that most of these issues and problems come form DVC not communicating fully with the members with adequate details so we can have comfort that DVC is making decision in the best interest of the membership.

Again I want to say how sincere and nice the person I talked with was (even when I was obviously frustrated with the answers), and I had a strong sense that this person was truly focused on the best interests of the membership.

I will update when I get the additional information and ask the question about how they could have arrived at the point value per room for Kidani, kept the points unchanged and not considered the views.

boo

 

[Dean]

I got my answer about Kidani and the reallocation. I talked to a very nice person who is deeply involved in the point reallocation process.

Here is is the information was given.

DVD does not differentiate classes of rooms when they do their sales filings it is just dedicated studios, dedicated 1brs, 2 bedrooms (both dedicated and splitable and GVs). I have asked for a copy of the initial filling to verify this.

After I finished talking I realized that as a 2 phase resort it is hard to fully understand how they set the total number of points at Kidani without considering the view since the point charts for Jambo were just extended to Kidani.

DVC creates the initial charts bases on the total number of points and their best interpretation of what the room categories should be.

Again since AKV is a 2 phase project I am having a hard time figuring this since the room type ratios are very different between the 2 resorts how DVD could do this without looking at room type and the chart not have to change the room point charts at the opening of Kidani. I believe that the person I talked to was sincere in the belief that this information given by DVD about just assigning point per 2br irregardless of view was accurate, but I have my doubt that that is technically possible and not have to change the charts at the opening of Kidani. This is critical to DVDs responsibility in the matter. I will query the person I have been talking to about this issue.

As a tidbit there were rooms, which change in Jambo also. (my guess would likely be 5210 to 5222 changing from SV to standard.

I have also requested the calculations for the reallocation.

I also got the clearest explanations of transferring (although I still had examples which were unclear) I will post this in a separate thread.

I emphasized that most of these issues and problems come form DVC not communicating fully with the members with adequate details so we can have comfort that DVC is making decision in the best interest of the membership.

Again I want to say how sincere and nice the person I talked with was (even when I was obviously frustrated with the answers), and I had a strong sense that this person was truly focused on the best interests of the membership.

I will update when I get the additional information and ask the question about how they could have arrived at the point value per room for Kidani, kept the points unchanged and not considered the views.

boo

I'm glad you got the sense they are truly trying to do the right thing (I hope I'm paraphrasing correctly). Obviously they have to take the view designations into account as it affects the total number of points.

 

[bookwormde]

Dean,

I cannot overemphasize how sincere this individual was. I still have concerns about how the points at Kidani were initially created and the impact of the room type count and the “fairness” to previous owners, but I truly got a sense that they were doing what was best for the members based on the information DVD was supplying them. I do still have concerns about DVDs mythologies and its motives and their pass trough effect on DVC and the members.

bookwormde

 

[Mickey'sApprentice]

Fair enough. Unfortunately your calculations don't work as well for me or my brother. He has a family of 6 which makes driving much more preferable. They save on food costs by bringing supplies from CostCo, can split drive time between he and his wife so can shave a day off the travel, and can carry much more luggage cheaply.

My calculations are affected by my HA needs. For instance, car rentals for me work out to $100 per day (yes that's the going rate for a wheelchair minivan, and yes that's why when I fly down I use Disney transportation exclusively).

Pay $150-$200 for a hotel on the drive through the Carolinas & Georgia? Where are you staying? It's more like $59-$99. One night needed only to make the 900 mile drive from MD or points around. 450 miles per day is average. Some do it in one 18 hour drive.

So while it may be a wash for you, it isn't so even in at least two cases. If we're talking about any member within a day's drive of Orlando, I'm guessing that would make 3 cases.

I can fly from Montgomery for $630 for 2 people, or drive for 8 hours. We've flown from Atlanta before, but that has more to do with not being tired when we arrive. We would never dream of renting a car on top of airfare.

 

[Dean]

Dean,

I cannot overemphasize how sincere this individual was. I still have concerns about how the points at Kidani were initially created and the impact of the room type count and the “fairness” to previous owners, but I truly got a sense that they were doing what was best for the members based on the information DVD was supplying them. I do still have concerns about DVDs mythologies and its motives and their pass trough effect on DVC and the members.

bookwormde

That has always been my experience dealing with DVC upper management. Keep in mind that DVD sells a product and DVCMC manages that product FOR the owners, not DVD, at least once it's toward being sold out. Early DVD is the majority owner. Knowing how they look at these issues, that's one of the reasons I get frustrated seeing the koolaid drinkers turn so easily on DVC when they don't like some little detail.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

I can fly from Montgomery for $630 for 2 people, or drive for 8 hours. We've flown from Atlanta before, but that has more to do with not being tired when we arrive. We would never dream of renting a car on top of airfare.

I am from MD( hey Jen) and airfare is just so cheap from BWI. For Aug I am getting Airtran down and back $70/$65 ($135 plus taxes) per person. It would cost us more to drive just for gas alone. We have planned two 4 night trips (Fri-Tues) and (Thurs-Mon). I'm hoping the pendulum does not swing back where I can't get weekends. That's been my ace in the hole as far as dealing with the "walkers".

 

[dismedvc]

I cannot overemphasize how sincere this individual was. I still have concerns about how the points at Kidani were initially created and the impact of the room type count and the “fairness” to previous owners, but I truly got a sense that they were doing what was best for the members based on the information DVD was supplying them. I do still have concerns about DVDs mythologies and its motives and their pass trough effect on DVC and the members.

bookwormde

Whether the initial "overclassification" of some rooms was premeditated or an honest mistake is something we can never know, but since the resort is not yet sold out, DVD could have taken the "hit" rather than the members who have already purchased.

Although I stand by the above, I would feel a lot less upset if it was an honest mistake, as bookwormde seems to be implying.