DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Sandisw]

But unlike so many anonymous mom and pop rental owners, they are running around with an air horn blowing and banners waving, arguably thumbing their nose at a set of rules literally and specifically aimed at them, and letting DVC and the world know exactly who’s doing it.

I'm guessing if this were a thread solely about online rental brokers and resale agents, and I had posted this back on Page 1:


This thread would have struggled to make it to 10 pages before a consensus was reached.

No because those of us who knew about that language discussed it back in February of last year in that long thread.

That’s not what this thread has been about…it’s been people having a conversation about what DVC not only should do but also what people think DVC is allowed to do because the preRIV resorts are vague.

For RiV and beyond, DVC has included it for everyone so there would have been no need to debate it.

 

[Sandisw]

How can you look at that aggregator and not see a problem?

Because, as I said, I don’t distinguish between who an owners lets use their room as I see it as the same when it comes to availability.

Plus, there are probably somewhere in the range of over 100K memberships and even if everyone rented simply two reservations a yearr, that could put a minimum of 200k rental reservations into the market every single year.

For me, if I lose out on getting a room, I lose out. I don’t feel more or less upset if it’s to an owner who uses it, who turned around and let a renter have it or gifted it to family/friend.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I'd prefer not to share who I rented from, but it was at BLT on short notice (booked less than 30 days from date of stay), not a spec reservation.

Oh, I absolutely wasn't suggesting you should. I tried to go out of my way to suggest that it didn't matter who you rented from, but more importantly what you rented from.

 

[DonMacGregor]

No because those of us who knew about that language discussed it back in February of last year in that long thread.

That’s not what this thread has been about…it’s been people having a conversation about what DVC not only should do but what people think DVc is allowed to do because the preRIV resorts are vague.

For RiV and beyond, DVC has included it for everyone so there would have been no need to debate it.

I fully understand that. Hense my "slow morning" comment. I think the pre-RIV POS has been debated to death at this point and slowing down. I just found it interesting that there are entities out there in what would seem to be in pretty clear violation of that new language and I'm curious as to what will happen, DVC reservation policing-wise, in a situation without the pre-RIV ambiguity.

Didn't mean to derail the thread, merely to take it on a scenic trip down a short siding before getting back on the main line.

 

[lowlight]

Sorry if you've already posted but what are you trying to book that you aren't able to?

1st week of December. There are other rooms available, but the SV studio's have been walked for a month.

 

[Sandisw]

I fully understand that. Hense my "slow morning" comment. I think the pre-RIV POS has been debated to death at this point and slowing down. I just found it interesting that there are entities out there in what would seem to be in pretty clear violation of that new language and I'm curious as to what will happen, DVC reservation policing-wise, in a situation without the pre-RIV ambiguity.

Didn't mean to derail the thread, merely to take it on a scenic trip down a short siding before getting back on the main line.

Hey..I think it is a good thing to take a different angle.

I am really curious why they made the changes to the transfer rules and if it is somehow connected to what they plan to do.

I posted in the other thread, but first they eliminate the $95 fee for exchanges for those who join MMB, now they are allowing owners to transfer points that are in more than just current year status and even added that you can do more than one transfer to exchange, at the time you are booking.

Could we see the point charts for those exchanges get better to encourage owners to trade directly instead of renting and paying cash…which is a common suggestion here?

I mean, could DVC be making a play to take more of the rental market for themselves?

I’m using points for my AP renewal because at the approximate $14/pt value, it’s much easier than renting.

Everyone who now trades points for these will be taking a room from points bookings and giving it to DVC to rent.

Just have to wonder if they have something up their sleeve to entice owners away from renting to trading???

I have another theory too but it falls into the highest level of conspiracy!!! lol

 

[Sandisw]

1st week of December. There are other rooms available, but the SV studio's have been walked for a month.

Did you not waitlist? I put in a waitlist for my second room the morning of December 3rd for Dec 3rd to 5th to replace the PV I had and it filled in three days! I picked up the 2nd on my own.

If you have a waitlist, keep up hope

 

[lowlight]

Did you not waitlist? I put in a waitlist for my second room the morning of December 3rd for Dec 3rd to 5th to replace the PV I had and it filled in three days! I picked up the 2nd on my own.

If you have a waitlist, keep up hope

I am waiting for my last 3 days. They've been waitlisted for many days now and nothing. I've actually never had a waitlist come through that I can recall. I always have to resort to stalking, but that didn't work out last year either.

 

[Sandisw]

I am waiting for my last 3 days. They've been waitlisted for many days now and nothing. I've actually never had a waitlist come through that I can recall. I always have to resort to stalking, but that didn't work out last year either.

I have only had one waitlist in all my years not fill it was a RIV GV for just one night. It went in in August for a January night and never filled.

Don’t lose hope…I put a waitlist in this year for a BWV studio for two December nights in September and it filled in October.

Of course, I use stalking too!! Sending you some pixiedust!!!

 

[DonMacGregor]

Hey..I think it is a good thing to take a different angle.

I am really curious why they made the changes to the transfer rules and if it is somehow connected to what they plan to do.

I posted in the other thread, but first they eliminate the $95 fee for exchanges for those who join MMB, now they are allowing owners to transfer points that are in more than just current year status and even added that you can do more than one transfer to exchange, at the time you are booking.

Could we see the point charts for those exchanges get better to encourage owners to trade directly instead of renting and paying cash…which is a common suggestion here?

I mean, could Disney be making a play to take more of the rental market for themselves?

I’m using points for my AP renewal because at the approximate $14/pt value, it’s much easier than renting.

Everyone who now trades points for these will be taking a room from points bookings and giving it to DVC to rent.

Just have to wonder if they have something up their sleeve to entice owners away from renting to trading???

I think it's a parallel play to make it much easier to use points that would otherwise either be distressed or lost if they weren't rented out. Shrink the pool of the "have-tos", and your left with the "want-tos". Then you can figure which in that group are in it solely as a business venture, versus those following the renting rules.

 

[Sandisw]

I think it's a parallel play to make it much easier to use points that would otherwise either be distressed or lost if they weren't rented out. Shrink the pool of the "have-tos", and your left with the "want-tos". Then you can figure which in that group are in it solely as a business venture, versus those following the renting rules.

Which does mean that the more people trade with them, instead of renting, it will reduce the open market rentals.

But, then again, it means DVC gets them and it would be a way to increase their breakage.

I really do hope they make the exchanging better!

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I'd prefer not to share who I rented from, but it was at BLT on short notice (booked less than 30 days from date of stay), not a spec reservation.

When you say not spec, do you mean you picked room type and view and dates and then they booked it for you (quite possibly with distressed points)?

Could we see the point charts for those exchanges get better to encourage owners to trade directly instead of renting and paying cash…which is a common suggestion here?

I mean, could DVC be making a play to take more of the rental market for themselves?

I’m using points for my AP renewal because at the approximate $14/pt value, it’s much easier than renting.

I really hope that is what is happening, because I would not think twice about trading in extra points above say $15/pt (enough to cover dues and annualized upfront costs with a little extra for time value of money) from basically all resorts for a DCL cruise, gift card, hotel room credit, park tix, etc., it Disney made it a one click (or even one call) transaction, it’s just not worth the effort to make an extra $2-5 per point on anything other than a giant rental (which I don’t do and suspect most members don’t do) plus you could potentially have flexibility for the exact number you want to trade. But when they want to give you less than $10/pt, it’s a transparently terrible way to use points (for anybody who bought in the last decade anyway), it’s obvious you are losing money on the trade, even before time value of money and sometimes before any buy in cost at all (looking at you DCL exchange value!).

Which does mean that the more people trade with them, instead of renting, it will reduce the open market rentals.

But, then again, it means DVC gets them and it would be a way to increase their breakage.

I really do hope they make the exchanging better!

The main reason I don’t see Disney stepping up its exchange values is because they already have more hotel inventory (especially in deluxe) than they can rent at full price— but with the broker middleman taking a huge cut, maybe they would rather buy for $15/night and rent for $30 a night (on their own websites) and then at least they are getting $15/pt in profit from a room that they otherwise got nothing on?)…which raises questions on what kind of competitor Disney itself will be as a commercial renters owner— do they just use it to grab the best rooms at the best time as well? Do they get advance booking benefits on points they own? I have absolutely rented a 2Bd BCV villa direct from Disney over the holiday period (in 2019) at over $2000 a night.

 

[nalababybear]

There's some margin spread that Disney has for whatever reason. Eg, vgc direct is 310pts and they go relatively fast.

You'd think Disney would rofr anything 250 and make 20% pretty quickly. It doesn't. It has a 30% it seems. Why? They don't pay broker fees so this is easy money for anyone not named Disney

 

[JackosinDIS]

I have another theory too but it falls into the highest level of conspiracy!!! lol

You can’t leave us hanging like that!

 

[Cyberc1978]

There's some margin spread that Disney has for whatever reason. Eg, vgc direct is 310pts and they go relatively fast.

You'd think Disney would rofr anything 250 and make 20% pretty quickly. It doesn't. It has a 30% it seems. Why? They don't pay broker fees so this is easy money for anyone not named Disney

Correct thread?

 

[Judique]

Did you not waitlist? I put in a waitlist for my second room the morning of December 3rd for Dec 3rd to 5th to replace the PV I had and it filled in three days! I picked up the 2nd on my own.

If you have a waitlist, keep up hope

At BWV nothing is coming back for people possibly following behind.

I was lucky I changed my mindset from 'get a standard view' to 'get anything' and I was able to get the end of the first week into the 2nd week. I immediately put in 2 waitlists for Thursday Dec 4th for Garden/Pool which I was able to snag starting on Friday. Was hoping to roll it backward into more of the first days. Expense is nominal as weekend versus weekday is only 1 point more expensive.

I have been watching very closely for almost 2 weeks now and this year is so much more intense than last year or even the previous 5 years when standard view became slightly more time consuming to book. I haven't had the ability to book any standard view studios since I started this year.

I was lucky enough to catch a garden view and have a set vacation now across both 1st and 2nd week.

However I'm not finished as I want 2 more winter trips for 2025 into 2026. If I were trying to walk I wouldn't be able to right now on any view at BWV. I will continue to watch as last year I couldn't get January for my birthday trip but was happy to get February which is just a bit over a month away.

And this morning I witnessed the disappearing room at 7:59am. I clicked on at 7:58 and a standard view studio and a BW view studio were there. Ever the optimist I get set to book at 8am, but was too quick as I landed on 7:59. Standard view was now gone in that last minute; so I had to set up again. Got there at 8am but I was too slow to grab the BW view, it was gone, but I got garden view. I wanted it as a single night this time around as I want a gap in my reservation to go somewhere else and return to Disney.

So who knows who got that room before 8? We all know there are options for that. Those options could also 'take' that room a lot earlier. Let's face it: the playing field is not even for everyone. I'm ready for 'seasons' for all studios December and January at BWV. Either that or have the points equalized across all rooms.

I think these conditions will eventually hit every resort. The points cost rises for every new resort. 2042 will be a new frontier. BWV and BCV (my two home resorts) will not be the cheap ones (whatever they do) and Riviera will be some kind of bargain, being a so called Epcot resort. The LLC's will start gobbling up points for it. (I actually think they are doing it now!)

 

[nalababybear]

At BWV nothing is coming back for people possibly following behind.

I was lucky I changed my mindset from 'get a standard view' to 'get anything' and I was able to get the end of the first week into the 2nd week. I immediately put in 2 waitlists for Thursday Dec 4th for Garden/Pool which I was able to snag starting on Friday. Was hoping to roll it backward into more of the first days. Expense is nominal as weekend versus weekday is only 1 point more expensive.

I have been watching very closely for almost 2 weeks now and this year is so much more intense than last year or even the previous 5 years when standard view became slightly more time consuming to book. I haven't had the ability to book any standard view studios since I started this year.

I was lucky enough to catch a garden view and have a set vacation now across both 1st and 2nd week.

However I'm not finished as I want 2 more winter trips for 2025 into 2026. If I were trying to walk I wouldn't be able to right now on any view at BWV. I will continue to watch as last year I couldn't get January for my birthday trip but was happy to get February which is just a bit over a month away.

And this morning I witnessed the disappearing room at 7:59am. I clicked on at 7:58 and a standard view studio and a BW view studio were there. Ever the optimist I get set to book at 8am, but was too quick as I landed on 7:59. Standard view was now gone in that last minute; so I had to set up again. Got there at 8am but I was too slow to grab the BW view, it was gone, but I got garden view. I wanted it as a single night this time around as I want a gap in my reservation to go somewhere else and return to Disney.

So who knows who got that room before 8? We all know there are options for that. Those options could also 'take' that room a lot earlier. Let's face it: the playing field is not even for everyone. I'm ready for 'seasons' for all studios December and January at BWV. Either that or have the points equalized across all rooms.

I think these conditions will eventually hit every resort. The points cost rises for every new resort. 2042 will be a new frontier. BWV and BCV (my two home resorts) will not be the cheap ones (whatever they do) and Riviera will be some kind of bargain, being a so called Epcot resort. The LLC's will start gobbling up points for it. (I actually think they are doing it now!)

Who says DVC will retain those properties post 2042? If I were Disney, those are becoming full time hotels.

 

[lowlight]

Who says DVC will retain those properties post 2042? If I were Disney, those are becoming full time hotels.

I’m curious why you think that? Turning hotel rooms into DVC is the best investment Disney has ever made for their immediate bottom line.

 

[Sandisw]

When you say not spec, do you mean you picked room type and view and dates and then they booked it for you (quite possibly with distressed points)?

I really hope that is what is happening, because I would not think twice about trading in extra points above say $15/pt (enough to cover dues and annualized upfront costs with a little extra for time value of money) from basically all resorts for a DCL cruise, gift card, hotel room credit, park tix, etc., it Disney made it a one click (or even one call) transaction, it’s just not worth the effort to make an extra $2-5 per point on anything other than a giant rental (which I don’t do and suspect most members don’t do) plus you could potentially have flexibility for the exact number you want to trade. But when they want to give you less than $10/pt, it’s a transparently terrible way to use points (for anybody who bought in the last decade anyway), it’s obvious you are losing money on the trade, even before time value of money and sometimes before any buy in cost at all (looking at you DCL exchange value!).

The main reason I don’t see Disney stepping up its exchange values is because they already have more hotel inventory (especially in deluxe) than they can rent at full price— but with the broker middleman taking a huge cut, maybe they would rather buy for $15/night and rent for $30 a night (on their own websites) and then at least they are getting $15/pt in profit from a room that they otherwise got nothing on?)…which raises questions on what kind of competitor Disney itself will be as a commercial renters owner— do they just use it to grab the best rooms at the best time as well? Do they get advance booking benefits on points they own? I have absolutely rented a 2Bd BCV villa direct from Disney over the holiday period (in 2019) at over $2000 a night.

IIRC, The rule for one transfer in and out was put in place back when that 2008 interpretation was given to owners, along with limiting home many accounts one could be added as an associate member.

Now, you have a similar situation. So, after all these years, it would be an odd coincidence that they happen to increase the flexibility…knowing that people receive money for transfers…including adding that reservation points can be transferred and allowing people to do more when booking an exchange, not to mention the elimination of the fee for MMB…if it isn’t related to this.

While you might not take advantage of it unless it’s at that level, doesn’t mean others wouldn’t if the message is put out that renting is going to be scrutinized much closer.

And, when an owner trades, DVC is in full control of what rooms it take from the inventory. I am trading VGF points for my AP so they can certainly take VGF rooms if they want…and nothing stops them from taking the hard to get rooms. This program alone will move rooms that otherwise would not if the person trading, like me, is not renting…and now will downsize one trip to a studio.

If they are losing those moderate level guests to DVC rentals, maybe having more DVC to offer as a “special offer” works?

All we know is that the new transfer rules give owners the ability to transfer a wider type of points and there must be something to it given, they know owners take money for them.

IMO, I don’t think the exchange rate needs to be that high because not everyone looks at the return the same way….so, move the exchange closer to $12/point and put out the message renting rules will be stricter, then who knows what impact it will have.

Giving owners more flexibility to use their points within the program instead of renting to get the cash, certainly is one way to potentially reduce the rental martlet….

 

[Sandisw]

At BWV nothing is coming back for people possibly following behind.

I was lucky I changed my mindset from 'get a standard view' to 'get anything' and I was able to get the end of the first week into the 2nd week. I immediately put in 2 waitlists for Thursday Dec 4th for Garden/Pool which I was able to snag starting on Friday. Was hoping to roll it backward into more of the first days. Expense is nominal as weekend versus weekday is only 1 point more expensive.

I have been watching very closely for almost 2 weeks now and this year is so much more intense than last year or even the previous 5 years when standard view became slightly more time consuming to book. I haven't had the ability to book any standard view studios since I started this year.

I was lucky enough to catch a garden view and have a set vacation now across both 1st and 2nd week.

However I'm not finished as I want 2 more winter trips for 2025 into 2026. If I were trying to walk I wouldn't be able to right now on any view at BWV. I will continue to watch as last year I couldn't get January for my birthday trip but was happy to get February which is just a bit over a month away.

And this morning I witnessed the disappearing room at 7:59am. I clicked on at 7:58 and a standard view studio and a BW view studio were there. Ever the optimist I get set to book at 8am, but was too quick as I landed on 7:59. Standard view was now gone in that last minute; so I had to set up again. Got there at 8am but I was too slow to grab the BW view, it was gone, but I got garden view. I wanted it as a single night this time around as I want a gap in my reservation to go somewhere else and return to Disney.

So who knows who got that room before 8? We all know there are options for that. Those options could also 'take' that room a lot earlier. Let's face it: the playing field is not even for everyone. I'm ready for 'seasons' for all studios December and January at BWV. Either that or have the points equalized across all rooms.

I think these conditions will eventually hit every resort. The points cost rises for every new resort. 2042 will be a new frontier. BWV and BCV (my two home resorts) will not be the cheap ones (whatever they do) and Riviera will be some kind of bargain, being a so called Epcot resort. The LLC's will start gobbling up points for it. (I actually think they are doing it now!)

If the rooms don’t come back and the waitlist doesn’t fill it means that demand is the culprit…now, that doesn’t means that some who got the rooms were not walkers because walkers eventually stop.

But, in my case, I obviously had dates that did include at least one person walking who kept going because of how quick it came through….and this happens to me every year for first week of December.

Now, different story for the second week…I usually need to do more stalking because the rooms don’t come back which means the rooms are being held by someone who at least wants those dates.

I definitely think that at BWV, point charts for December for studios should be closer in value to make the competition between the views more equal.

But, nothing is going to ever be perfect…when demand is this high.