DVC plans to target commercial renters

[nalababybear]

I understand you are championing the pro-rental position, but you can't keep saying new rules and processes will suppress the enthusiasm for product sales as if it's a fact. I would have already added on if renting wasn't such a viable option. When I ran out of points last year, I rented for basically what dues cost from someone who apparently needed to get rid of their points. Why would I ever buy a new contract when I can rent that low? The more renters, the cheaper rentals will be. The cheaper rentals are, the less incentive to purchase resale or direct, OR to rent a moderate from Disney direct. You vastly overestimate how many people care about being able to rent or renting for profit if you think it will suppress sales. If anything, it will suppress sales from the exact kind of people DVC doesn't need any more of- timeshare landlords.

Not championing anything beyond keeping it simple. People like simple. That's a fact.

Complexity and rules suppresses things. That's a fact.

Will it translate to lower sales? Perhaps. Will Disney wants that? My bet is no.

What's changed? My bet is occupancy rates.

We consumers like to think its our collective complaints. It's not. It's the dollars we don't spend coupled with complaints that will garner attention.

Complaints alone has rarely bothered Disney.

 

[karen4546]

As a single guy with more than 3 weeks worth of points - I tend to end up renting some each year ( twice last year)

I would not have purchased as many points if renting was not allowed.
1. Guests of mine have cancelled where I was left with a 250 point 2br reservation
2. Work has caused me to trim down vacation some years.
3. Many of us were sold on buying more points to rent and help cover our dues.

The “ fix” to the the problem would cause hardship for people who need to rent points from time to time.

In general- I think people are creating a rental boogeyman when they don’t get the week they wanted. I did my homework and knew that I was not guaranteed the value room on demand at 11 months.

If you purchased knowing you would be renting points regularly then you are a commercial renter.
Commercial renting is not allowed.
You signed the contracts intending to break the rules by your own words.

Members may rent their Vacation Points. However, the use of your Vacation Points for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Member that the Board of Condominium Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

 

[Genie+]

What's changed? My bet is occupancy rates.

We consumers like to think its our collective complaints. It's not. It's the dollars we don't spend coupled with complaints that will garner attention.

Does it need to be one or the other though?

I wouldn’t expect DVC to do anything if there was really zero impact but WDW Resorts called them up and said, “Hey, can you enforce renting because we’re sweating over here.” Especially if those rentals were selling DVC and making DVD huge profits, and renting had zero impact on the product they were trying to sell.

If there is higher and higher impact from rentals the last several years and negatively hitting multiple things… then maybe DVC finally decides to respond. They wouldn’t just respond to negative feedback that was baseless, no matter how common it was.

 

[Mouseforward]

What exactly do you consider “actual evidence”? Do you have actual evidence that DVC encouraged you to buy extra points to rent to pay your dues? I’d imagine this could be useful evidence if they send you a letter about your pattern of behavior.

They will not because DVC does not consider rental to pay your due or any other reason commercial - Show me anything to support that. Or better yet call a guide and see if it is legal and within the contact to rent.

 

[Genie+]

That is not what commercial means - and renting points for paying your dues is encouraged by DVC
Call a guide and ask - and then come back and apologize

You live up to your screen name Karen

That’s not nice. It’s better to go after people’s ideas, no? Not their name

 

[Mouseforward]

If this means what I think it means, the only explanation is that you are being deliberately obtuse.

There have been people running side hustle-businesses in DVC rentals for a very long time.

I have yet to see any evidence of that - this very forum has a rental section with repeat renters posting , and Psst look who sponsors it.

Rental activity is allowed - I don't see any evidence of rule breaking

 

[Nabas]

If you purchased knowing you would be renting points regularly then you are a commercial renter.
Commercial renting is not allowed.
You signed the contracts intending to break the rules by your own words.

Members may rent their Vacation Points. However, the use of your Vacation Points for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Member that the Board of Condominium Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

As previously discussed on this thread, there is a considerable gap between a “commercial enterprise” and renting some extra points. Since we signed a contract, using the legal definition of commercial enterprise is critical to understand what is and is not permitted.

I suggest reading this and this to better appreciate the language in the POS (Public Offering Statement) from a legal perspective.

I hope you find this information helpful.

 

[lowlight]

That is not what commercial means - and renting points for paying your dues is encouraged by DVC
Call a guide and ask - and then come back and apologize

You live up to your screen name Karen

It's ok, no offense taken. We disagree is all, I think you're a commercial renter- you bought extra to rent, that's a pretty solid clue there. Like we've said many times here though, what I feel doesn't matter, same with your thoughts. Doubtful a guide would put it on record or on paper that buying extra points to rent every year is encouraged, but sure maybe they'd say it during a sales pitch. DVC gets to make the decision, and if either of us aren't happy with the outcome, we have choices.

 

[Mouseforward]

It's ok, no offense taken. We disagree is all, I think you're a commercial renter- you bought extra to rent, that's a pretty solid clue there. Like we've said many times here though, what I feel doesn't matter, same with your thoughts. Doubtful a guide would put it on record or on paper that buying extra points to rent every year is encouraged, but sure maybe they'd say it during a sales pitch. DVC gets to make the decision, and if either of us aren't happy with the outcome, we have choices.

Call MS and ask , or call a guide - Your "thoughts" are not material to the discussion when your accusing someone - get the facts.

 

[Hubalorian]

Call MS and ask , or call a guide - Your "thoughts" are not material to the discussion when you’re accusing someone - get the facts.

just 2 cents here

Yea, this car is great. It’ll make 3-400k miles no problem. Yes you can absolutely Lyft/Uber/Doordash on the side. Buy here, you can do those things for these many miles. Don’t ask me to put those miles in the contract, because I won’t acknowledge it then. Breaks down at 85k. The seller isn’t responsible for what they said, unless you can proof it and in court that’s in writing or a recording. So it’s what in the document that counts, not what you are told in a sales pitch.

All I’m saying is, interpretation can change. No where in our contracts does it say we can rent out our points every year for however many points we want. However it does say, a pattern of rental activity can be viewed as a commercial enterprise.

 

[Mouseforward]

just 2 cents here

Yea, this car is great. It’ll make 3-400k miles no problem. Yes you can absolutely Lyft/Uber/Doordash on the side. Buy here, you can do those things for these many miles. Don’t ask me to put those miles in the contract, because I won’t acknowledge it then. Breaks down at 85k. The seller isn’t responsible for what they said, unless you can proof it and in court that’s in writing or a recording. So it’s what in the document that counts, not what you are told in a sales pitch.

All I’m saying is, interpretation can change. No where in our contracts does it say we can rent out our points every year for however many points we want. However it does say, a pattern of rental activity can be viewed as a commercial enterprise.

Or you can call and ask DVC for what constitutes commercial rental vs allowed rental and they will tell you.

But no, more fun to speculate and don't ask the one party that matters.

 

[lowlight]

Call MS and ask , or call a guide - Your "thoughts" are not material to the discussion when your accusing someone - get the facts.

This thread has been pretty long and civil for the most part. We can disagree like adults. You don't see a problem with renting, because you bought extra points to rent yourself. There are a lot of people on this thread who agree with you, as they are doing the same thing. Ask a guide to put it on paper, then I will come back here and amend my statements admitting that I was wrong.

 

[Hubalorian]

Or you can call and ask DVC for what constitutes commercial rental vs allowed rental and they will tell you.

But no, more fun to speculate and don't ask the one party that matters.

Since you seem so knowledgeable on this topic, can you please tell me what constitutes a commercial rental? Especially since members services is closed, please enlighten me

 

[davidhr]

Surprised this thread has been going for so long without being locked. Seems it's approaching that point.

Chill people!

 

[Mouseforward]

Since you seem so knowledgeable on this topic, can you please tell me what constitutes a commercial rental? Especially since members services is closed, please enlighten me

My opinion does not matter - call MS and they will give you the approved response - why is everyone so afraid to do the only thing that would answer the debate.

 

[Mouseforward]

This thread has been pretty long and civil for the most part. We can disagree like adults. You don't see a problem with renting, because you bought extra points to rent yourself. There are a lot of people on this thread who agree with you, as they are doing the same thing. Ask a guide to put it on paper, then I will come back here and amend my statements admitting that I was wrong.

I dont have a problem with renting since it is literally approved in the FAQ -
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/faq/points/renting

The issue is what they define as a commercial enterprise and for that you have to ask them.

But when I asked they mentioned 20 / year and specifically told me that I was well within acceptable limits renting 1wk a year to help pay my dues.

 

[Sandisw]

Let’s not get into posts that become accusations. We have had really spirited debates and so far, they have been in bounds.

And I think the biggest thing one can gleam from this thread, including the DVC people reading it…I am sure they are..waving here!…is that “a pattern of rental activity that the board, in their reasonable discretion, can conclude you are a commercial enterprise or practice” means a lot of different things to a lot of owners and what actual actions an owner is taking turns them into an owner who is in violation of that.

The only thing we know 100% is true is that in 2008 DVC interpreted that clause to say that once you hit 20 reservations in a 12 month period, they could reasonably conclude you were one”.

Whether that still exists or is used for the preRIv resorts, we don’t know. DVC has never said.

We know that you can’t find it anymore in the official HRRs…but we do know that for RiV and beyond that decided to add more specific actions that can be used by them to come to that conclusion.

Beyond that, it’s all about where one sets the threshold between allowable rentals and non allowable rentals…which will determine how one is evaluating the situation.

DVC gets to decide what it means, and how to enforce it, and hopefully make it clear to owners as to what that is.

The RiV, VDH, and CFW language certainly gives us some insight into where they might be going and the new updated transfer language could be related to this..or not.

So, if we want to continue talking…let’s continue to keep it appropriate!

 

[lowlight]

And I think the biggest thing one can gleam from this thread, including the DVC people reading it…I am sure they are..waving here!

Imagine being assigned social media duty and having to read through these 92 pages. That's a job for the new guy.

 

[ShaneDJ]

DVC gets to decide what it means, and how to enforce it, and hopefully make it clear to owners as to what that is.

Well said, as usual.

Only when DVC provides clarity, can both sides know for sure.

Can we now please close this thread before it reaches 100 pages?

 

[Sandisw]

I dont have a problem with renting since it is literally approved in the FAQ -
https://disneyvacationclub.disney.go.com/faq/points/renting

The issue is what they define as a commercial enterprise and for that you have to ask them.

But when I asked they mentioned 20 / year and specifically told me that I was well within acceptable limits renting 1wk a year to help pay my dues.

Appreciate you sharing your experience and what you were told was in bounds.

We shall see if DVC decides to amend that. Last year when I spent an extensive amount of time, going to the chain, they did not mention the 20 reservations limit.

But did refer me to that language, other parts of the contract and said, as an owner, it’s up to you to look at it and not rent in a way that turns you into a commercial enterprise..

I happen to agree that the 20 reservations per 12 month period is a reasonable threshold but others may not..

So, let’s see if we get any updated adjustments. Until then, owners should go by what they are told!