DVC plans to target commercial renters

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No, you definitely have the right to book a hard to get room, and you also have the right to rent it. I never said you didn't.

But the more times you do it, and the more frequently you do it, the more it may look like it is being used as part of a commercial enterprise in Disney's eyes. And they are the ones who ultimately get to decide when it crosses the line.

I think you ultimately agreed with me but just misunderstood what I was saying, because in the end you did say essentially what my point was, which is that whatever the pattern of rental activity looks like, it just depends on when Disney thinks it crosses the line, and most members wouldn't want to be on the other end of that.

They aren't going to give a hard rule "IE 20 reservations" again, because they know that serious renters will just try to find a way around it again and do everything they can to do the absolute most they can before crossing that boundary. It makes it easier if they can just say, "we know it when we see it"

Sure…I was just saying that I don’t think which room you books matters.

Since we all get to book any room as FCFS, and renters can fall under the personal use umbrella for acceptable guests, I do not believe DVC can use the type of room booked as a determining factor.

Whether I regularly rent a ton of SSR rooms or I rent a ton of VGF deluxe studios every year in December, my actions and purpose don’t change because one is hard to get and one is not.

If I spec rent a VGF studio every December and it’s my one and only rental per year, I simply cant be deemed as using my membership as a commercial enterprise when I rented something once, even yearly because I have the right to rent under the premise that it is a condominium and the condominium states apply.

If they try, IMO, it’s a blatant violation of the contract because we simply are not supposed to be limited unless we reach that commercial enterprise level. And yes, I know some do not agree


I think we are pretty much on the same page that it is about the volumes and patterns that trigger the thresholds.

My other thought is if what people have asserted is true…that all these high demand spec rentals are from a single owner or LLC whose has flown under the radar, then DVC stopping thos moghr lessen the number of these hard to get rooms that show up.

In reality though, you will still have your average owner picking up these rooms to rent.

I mentioned this earlier too..I can see the brokers going back to owners renting on demand instead of on spec, if for no other reason to hide the level of renting their company is doing for owners.

No one would know hard to get rooms were being rented on spec if they were not advertised.
 
I'm in the opposite camp. If it is a choice between keeping the current mess (which doesn't affect me at all) or not allowing any renting (what ever that definition of renting might be) I vote to keep the current system.
I agree. It’s the system we bought into. My guide (25 years ago) told me we could rent points if need be. I’ve rented approx 5 times in that span and gifted approx 15 vacation blocks. You can’t buy a house next to a dump and complain about the smell. Standard view rooms have always been difficult to book.
 

Since we all get to book any room as FCFS, and renters can fall under the personal use umbrella for acceptable guests, I do not believe DVC can use the type of room booked as a determining factor.
I think that they would struggle to use the type of room booked as the ONLY determining factor, but even one accepts that the only test that can be used to identify a commercial practice is "a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice", then the types of rooms booked could almost certainly be one piece of evidence that is used to establish that pattern. I don't THINK that you disagree with this premise, but the phrasing of that post makes that a bit less clear to me.
 
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I think that they would struggle to use the type of room booked as the ONLY determining factor, but even we accept that the only test that can be used to determine commercial practice is "a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice", then the types of rooms booked could certainly be one piece of evidence that is used to establish that pattern. I don't THINK that you disagree with this premise, but the phrasing of that post makes that a bit less clear to me.

As long as the threshold is the same regardless if whether the room is hard to get or not, then yes.

If one owner books a lot of rooms at SSR all year long, but always in early December every year and another owner books a ton of rooms. the same number, all year long at VGF but always in early December…both should be held to the same standard.

What I don’t agree with or think DVC can do is treat the same situation different because an owner owns at a popular resort, like VGF, and another owner does not, like SSR.

Another example, someone rents 15 reservations a year every December but someone else rents their 15 during less busy times of year, they both should be treated the same.

An AKV owner who rents only standard ciee shoild be treated no differently than one who only rents values. If the number and pattern of those rentals is exactly the same

Basically, IMO, type of room or time of year does not matter in whether someone is moving into the commercial enterprise world.

And that is because the standard and declarations at all pre RIv resorts are the same…

As an owner of three resorts, one being RiV so I understand those rules could look different, I should, and expect, to be allowed to rent my SSR and VGF ownerships exactly the same way.
 
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Basically, IMO, type of room does not matter in whether someone is moving into the commercial enterprise world.
I think it absolutely does because the suspected commercial enterprise needs to be examined as a whole rather than examined as a bunch of different inputs that are each reviewed in isolation. If you're investigating fraud you don't just ignore the legal transactions because they're legal--you consider them in the context of the broader investigation and sometimes they can help establish a pattern of activity that is illegal. IMO, the same applies here--there are a bunch of things that might be allowable in isolation--frequently booking high value villas, frequently booking for third parties, frequently booking then later canceling, etc.--but when evaluated as a whole might point to a clearly commercial operation.
 
I think it absolutely does because the suspected commercial enterprise needs to be examined as a whole rather than examined as a bunch of different inputs that are each reviewed in isolation. If you're investigating fraud you don't just ignore the legal transactions because they're legal--you consider them in the context of the broader investigation and sometimes they can help establish a pattern of activity that is illegal. IMO, the same applies here--there are a bunch of things that might be allowable in isolation--always booking high value villas, always booking for third parties, frequently booking then later canceling, etc.--but when evaluated as a whole point to a clearly commercial operation.

Then we don’t agree because I don’t know how DVC can say that because you bought into a nicer resort that people want to stay at you have a different standard of what makes you engaging in it as business than someone else whose resort isn’t popular.

Especially when the whole FCFS rule comes into play.

As I said, it means I could be under a different standard as a VGF owner than as an SSR owner?

That doesn’t mesh for me.
 
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Disney benefits from a rental market and a resale market.

The rental market exists because Disney charges absurd prices to the general public for their hotels.

Disney could just drop their rack rates to something reasonable and solve the problem that way..... but then they can't justify direct dvc prices that are out of whack with reality. The only reason they can sell DVC at the absurd prices they do is because rack rates are too high.

Without a solid resale market, Disney could not sell direct for what they do.

At the end of the day, Disney only cares that these companies are cutting into their bottom line.
 
Disney benefits from a rental market and a resale market.

The rental market exists because Disney charges absurd prices to the general public for their hotels.

Disney could just drop their rack rates to something reasonable and solve the problem that way..... but then they can't justify direct dvc prices that are out of whack with reality. The only reason they can sell DVC at the absurd prices they do is because rack rates are too high.

Without a solid resale market, Disney could not sell direct for what they do.

At the end of the day, Disney only cares that these companies are cutting into their bottom line.

Or they could kill off the competition and make renting risky enough that more people book their hotel rooms at insane prices that are almost all profit. That sounds like a way better benefit for Disney than the rental market on which they just bring people into the parks. And frankly, there are lots of cheap non-Disney hotels and rentals. It isn't like the killing the rental business is going to have a huge impact on gate.
 
Is DVC the house next to the dump, or the dump itself?
The system isn’t perfect but I won’t sell due to the flexibility. We paid $57 point for our BWV contract and a little more for BRV. Sometimes I have to book preferred views if standard view rooms are not available.
 
Then we don’t agree because I don’t know how DVC can say that because you bought into a nicer resort that people want to stay at you have a different standard of what makes it a business than someone else.
They don't. They say that your booking activity has exhibited a pattern of behaviors (which considers, say, 10 different factors including room types booked) that clearly points to you operating a commercial enterprise. I'm confused as to what inputs you think are allowable in establishing a pattern of rental activity that constitutes a commercial enterprise, and why those inputs are different from room type. Is it just number of bookings? Percentage of points rented? If I'm following this logic, then it's explicitly allowed for me to own 4000 points at a single resort, and I'm explicitly allowed to rent as many of them as I'd like as long as it isn't commercial, so why should I be reviewed more closely just because I can afford to own more points than the next guy?
 
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Then we don’t agree because I don’t know how DVC can say that because you bought into a nicer resort that people want to stay at you have a different standard of what makes it a business than someone else.

Especially when the whole FCFS rule comes into play.
It is the other way around.

It is NOT that you bought at BWV/AKV, therefore you are commercially renting
It is that you wanted to commercially rent, so then you probably bought into BWV/AKV or another resort with the best possible rental returns.

And that is just one data point out of many like @Sykes is saying.

If they do crack down on commercial renters, I expect to see it skewed towards large point AKV/BWV point owners. Do you think that they should have to target the same percentage of owners at each resort? Even if the percentage of members doing rentals that may be considered commercial enterprise aren't the same percentage at each resort? That would be ridiculous but that would have to be how they do it according to how you are thinking.

And I am not sure why you bring up FCFS as FCFS booking has nothing to do with whether or not commercial enterprise renting is occurring.

If a reservation is made according to FCFS by someone looking to commercially rent, it breaks rules
If a reservation is made according to FCFS by someone looking to use it for their personal vacation use, it does not (even if they decide to or need to rent it later)
This is what they are sussing out.
 
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They don't. They say that your booking activity has exhibited a pattern of behaviors (which considers, say, 10 different factors including room types booked) that clearly points to you operating a commercial enterprise. I'm confused as to what inputs you think are allowable in establishing a pattern of rental activity that constitutes a commercial enterprise, and why those inputs are different from room type. Is it just number of bookings? Percentage of points rented? If I'm following this logic, then it's explicitly allowed for me to own 4000 points at a single resort, and I'm explicitly allowed to rent as many of them as I'd like as long as it isn't commercial, so why should I be reviewed more closely just because I can afford to own more points than the next guy?

The thresholds would be the rentals themselves and not the room types, times of year, etc,

I gave an example yesterday that if I own 500 points and rent 250 every year, DVC might not see that as a large enough pattern to say it’s for business purposes. It pretty much pays for my 500 points of dues.

However, if you have 4000 points and rent 2000 every year, then that might be looked at differently because the number of rentals you are doing is much higher and can reach a reasonable definition that you are doing it for a business because they want to use those other clarifiers.

For RIV owners, I think they can. I think the level of what a pattern is can be lowered because they can now combine them.

While I know you don’t agree, I really do think they changed the declarations because they have to be specific when limiting an owner’s right to rent and as was pointed out, being a condominium, its built in.

Going back to the examples, both are 50% but two different situations. It doesn’t matter whether you own VGF, BWV, or SSR…it’s your actions that make the difference.

DVD did include this in the contract. “To encourage personal use, you are capped at 4000 per resort or 8000 total”.

IMO, that alone gives the impression to the average owner that it takes a lot to shift to what can be considered using the membership for a business.

Not saying it’s fair game to rent all 8000 and be safe, but it is a lot of points and I can certainly see how someone might interpret that to mean that is the criteria.

Had it been capped at 2000 and 4000, then I’d say that would have been what an average DVC owner was likely to interpret as the line in the sand.

One of the reasons I have said before that I don’t like hard and fast numbers, like 20 reservations or 50%, etc because the number of points matters.

If I own 100 points and rent them every year for 3 or 4 years and I am never a guest and none of them are family or friends, then I think there is a high probability I have begun to use it a business.

But, if I have 900 points and one year rent all of them and then the next few years I rent a few hundred, but the rest I use, then I don’t see that as a pattern that means it’s a business…it’s an owner who has something else going on.

There are a lot of situations that I could suggest that match what I believe is a violation and what is not. It’s not cut and dry.

In terms of the RiV and beyond language, I think DVC could include that as additional info to an owner, but IMO, they don’t have the authority to make those the reasons or to be able to lower the level of what constitutes a pattern of rental activity below what would be reasonable it is a business.

And that is why I will be surprised if we see anything more than DVC going after the large point owners because that is what they talked about in the meeting…in that they recognized that those are the owners who are doing things like walking and renting high demand rooms because they know how to use things to their advantage.

But it’s being the large point owner renting a lot that is the issue and not the other things they are doing to make them into a more lucrative business
 
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The threshjolds would be the rentals themselves and not the room types, times of year, etc,

I gave an example yesterday that if I own 500 points and rent 250 every year, DVC might not see that as a large enough pattern to say it’s for business purposes. It pretty much pays for my 500 points of dues.

However, if you have 4000 points and rent 2000 every year, then that might be looked at differently because the number of rentals you are doing is much higher and can reach a reasonable definition that you are doing it for a business because they want to use those other clarifiers.
In all scenarios we're talking about activity and factors that are explicitly allowed until it is commercial--percentage of points rented, total point ownership, types of units rented, the resorts owned, etc. It seems like you've arbitrarily chosen percentage of points rented and total point ownership (and other similar factors) as the allowed inputs to determine a pattern of commercial activity because it suits how you would like them to enforce it. I won't be surprised if that is how they choose to do so, but I don't think that is their only option, and I don't think that any assertion that they can't use room type rented as a factor in determining whether or not a pattern of rental activity constitutes a commercial enterprise is supported by either the contract OR by @drusba's analysis of the situation (but I'm happy to be corrected if they feel differently).
 
In all scenarios we're talking about activity and factors that are explicitly allowed until it is commercial--percentage of points rented, total point ownership, types of units rented, the resorts owned, etc. It seems like you've arbitrarily chosen percentage of points rented and total point ownership as the input for the pattern of rental activity because it suits how you would like them to enforce it. I won't be surprised if that is how they choose to do so, but I don't think that is their only option, and I don't think that any assertion that they can't use room type rented as a factor in determining whether or not a pattern of rental activity constitutes a commercial enterprise is supported by either the contract OR by @drusba's analysis of the situation (but I'm happy to be corrected if they feel differently).

You use the word commercial and I say it’s making it a commercial enterprise which is defined as a business.

I think that is the big area we differ and why I don’t see how the resort matters. When you only use the general word commercial, it allows one to define a lot more actions as being a “violation”

Think about…DVC starts setting different rules for different resorts and what might someone do…who wants to push the rental limits…buy SSR and rent those instead because they know that since that resort isn’t as popular it is easier to get around the rules.


But, the one thing everyone agrees on is that in the end, only DVC and their lawyers know what they believe is legally in bounds for enforcing the resorts set out in the declarations of all the resorts.
 
Going back to the examples, both are 50% but two different situations. It doesn’t matter whether you own VGF, BWV, or SSR…it’s your actions that make the difference.

But, if I have 900 points and one year rent all of them and then the next few years I rent a few hundred, but the rest I use, then I don’t see that as a pattern that means it’s a business…it’s an owner who has something else going on.
Let's simplify this. Look at these 2 examples you just made. Yes your actions are what matter, none of us are saying they aren't.

1. A member renting 50% of their points per year. Total point number can be whatever you want.
  • If it is a VGF or SSR owner renting SSR or VGF rooms at around a pretty standard rate of around $20 or just over double their dues per point. They are earning around enough to pay off all their dues and still use their other points. Great for them, and may be could be allowed under personal use, even though some here may argue it may not be.
  • Now take a BWV owner, renting out the same number and percentage of their points. But this time it is all BWV standard rooms at very popular times booked and instantly listed for rentals that regularly can bring in around $35 per point or almost 4x dues! This member has now paid for all of their dues for the year, used all of their points, AND has an extra $15 per point in profit.
  • Which of these members is more likely to be running a commercial enterprise? I think it is the second. While you seem to think there is no difference???

2. You rent out all of your 900 points the first year, and a few hundred each year for the next 3 years. 1800 points total
  • You own at SSR and rent out rooms that usually rent for $20 per point at SSR. Bringing in around $36,000 over the course against $30,744ish in dues for ALL of your points (the ones you use and the ones you rented). A slight profit, less if you include your yearly cost from the up front purchase. And you went on some vacations. Nice!
  • You own at BWV and rent out Standard View Studios during the most popular times that regularly can rent at around $35 per point. Bringing in around $63,000 over the course against around $32,616 in dues for all of your points, both rented and used.
  • Which of these members would you investigate and mark as being more likely to be running a commercial enterprise? The one who made a few thousand dollars over a few years or the one who likely brought in around $30,000 in profit on the same number AND percentage of points? I would 100% be more likely to suspect the second member more than the first member. But you think that they are equally likely to be running a commercial enterprise? Really? 🙀

In summary, room types and reservation dates absolutely can matter in determining a pattern of rentals that may be indicative of a member running a commercial enterprise. And Disney can look at that as one of their factors if they wish to.
 
In addition, people who have been owners for a LONG time should understand and accept that even if Disney could waive a magic wand and get rid of renting and walking tomorrow (which they aren’t) that owners still aren’t going to have the same 7m non-home resort availability that they are used to because of how many more points have flooded the system and how many more members are competing for the same rooms and most desired times of year.

I specifically purchased a war chest of points at resorts that I want to stay at to be able to completely avoid the studio and SAP battlefields…. the same way that I now try to pre-purchase seating at Aulani 90-days in advance.
Monkeypods and Costco help with AUL :)

Yes, 7m availability is just bonkers and will continue to do so since the system is so much larger now and can shift to any month at any time.
 
You use the word commercial and I say it’s making it a commercial enterprise which is defined as a business.
I started quoting the POS to eliminate any ambiguity, but I guess I made the mistake of reverting to colloquial language in this situation because the distinction is mostly irrelevant--we're discussing what factors the Board is allowed to consider when determining whether or not a pattern of rentals constitutes a commercial enterprise. Nonetheless, I'll go back to only using properly defined terms in future posts.

While I don't want to ask too much, I hope that @drusba can chime in as to whether or not they believe that the Board is prohibited from considering the types of rooms rented when determine whether or not a pattern of rentals constitutes a commercial enterprise. While you are mostly aligned with them, I feel like you are taking some logical leaps that aren't supported by the contract or case law but still using their arguments to try to bolster your own. But it's entirely possible that I'm the one misunderstanding.
 
It is the other way around.

It is NOT that you bought at BWV/AKV, therefore you are commercially renting
It is that you wanted to commercially rent, so then you probably bought into BWV/AKV or another resort with the best possible rental returns.

And that is just one data point out of many like @Sykes is saying.

If they do crack down on commercial renters, I expect to see it skewed towards large point AKV/BWV point owners. Do you think that they should have to target the same percentage of owners at each resort? Even if the percentage of members doing rentals that may be considered commercial enterprise aren't the same percentage at each resort? That would be ridiculous but that would have to be how they do it according to how you are thinking.

And I am not sure why you bring up FCFS as FCFS booking has nothing to do with whether or not commercial enterprise renting is occurring.

If a reservation is made according to FCFS by someone looking to commercially rent, it breaks rules
If a reservation is made according to FCFS by someone looking to use it for their personal vacation use, it does not (even if they decide to or need to rent it later)
This is what they are sussing out.

And again, doesn’t matter why you chose a resort.

If you are renting for a business, then you are. If you are not, then you are not.

Obviously, if more of the owners who are using DVC as a business own at those popular resorts, the crackdown is going to hit a higher percentage of owners at that resort.

That’s not what I am talking about. I am talking about DVC setting restrictions that look at the room type as a way of determining someone has hit the threshold.

And that is what I don’t agree with. They don’t get to treat the BWV owner renting resort view rooms differently than the SSR owner if the actions of both and situations of both are exactly the same.

2000 point BWV owner, renting more than half their points in a BWV Resort View studio every year.

2000 point SSR owner, renting more than half their points in a SSR Preferred View studio every year.

Same exact actions. Enforcement should be the same. Sure, the BWV owner is making more profit than then the SSR owner but they both appear to be using DVC as a commercial enterprise.

Now flip it, a 500 point BWV owner rents three BWV resort view studios every December and uses only 150 points.

The 500 point SSR owner does the same thing in early December for the PV studio.

If I am understanding your position, the BWV owner is running a business but the SSR owner is not?

That’s what I am talking about.
 
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