DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Sandisw]

If non-personal use and walking get corrections… does point washing come next?

Is this part of a long term recipe. DVD better protecting the member experience and redirecting paths of profiteering back to themselves. Keep the membership satisfied, lure more renters into buying, and differentiate direct enough to push more of those buyers into direct or upgrading to direct.

I am not sure what will happen with walking but to be honest, I think they recognize that any changes to stop that could have unintended consequences and that is a line they won’t cross lightly.

So, the sense is it’s certainly something being looked

However I think the comments about making sure owners aren’t negatively impacted or that it doesn’t cause owners ability to book go back to having to go in more often remains a priority for them in any potential change they could make.

 

[mort1331]

As long as I can still make changes to my reservations.....We have Mar2025 booked,,,,I have prob changed 10 times since I am not sure what I really want to do. I put in waitlist,,they came up,,,I dropped days,,,added days....I think I am set now,,,but hey,,they wife always says,,,"what about\" so lets see what they do

 

[samsp99]

Thanks for sharing the extra commentary— what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I would guess they want to reassure most owners with less than a few thousand points that they aren’t likely to be targeted, but only the people who own a lot of points specifically to run sophisticated rental enterprises?

Haha, that is the question. I wonder if it will be a total amount of points owned and percentage of points rented question?

A person with 3000 points who rents about 400 a year should be viewed differently than a person with 1000 points who rents 900 a year, in my opinion—-but then there’s the devil in the details— how do you know that 900 were rented versus gifted to family friends?

Presumably they have the ability to see which accounts have made a lot of bookings right at 8:00:00 on the nose, only to change names later? I would start there.

Based on the rash of listings from the one broker who also lists rentals, who has been dumping stripped contracts, they may have already started the crack down. The interesting thing is those are all smaller 100-300pt contracts - what isn’t clear is if there is a small set of owners, or if they are straw purchases through LLC’s etc.

 

[samsp99]

They’ve made a start on this by equalising the BWV points required across seasons…

I would suggest the problem is more the delta between the value rooms, pool/garden and boardwalk view. The latter 2 are the same point cost, but the view is more popular. During some periods, the value rooms are considerably cheaper point wise than the others.

 

[samsp99]

When Disney rents DVC villas for $$, what rooms are they renting, and when do those get taken out of the system for members to be able to book - aka how do they interact with the 11mo and 7mo windows?

What would be the overall impact if Disney offered members the ability to rent back points to disney, similar to magical beginnings? For example if they offered $15/pt on a semi-restricted gift card that could be used by the named owner(s) for dues, tickets and meals (I am thinking restricted to reduce the opportunity for laundering via facebook marketplace etc, and in exchange for high profit items for them). It would certainly be more reliable for owners (no flakey customers/ cancellations) and renters have the benefit of working with Disney rather than some rando from the interwebs.
For those who can’t use the points one year, it certainly would be easier, and the GC can be turned into due payments or passes for the next trip.

You could say they have done this with the ability to buy passes with points, but that is only available for magic extra customers, and the exchange rate sucks.

 

[VGCgroupie]

In all seriousness, I am happy to see that DVC is at least (seemingly) acknowledging that walking and commercial renting are activities in which they need to take an active interest and potential action. I am all for it.

In fairness people may not need to walk reservations if there wasn’t as much heavy commercial renting of desirable dates happening. So if they fix commercial renting they may just solve the walking problem as a bonus.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Assuming DVC does indeed clamp down on commercial renters, what impact (if any) do we see a clampdown having on these two things:

1. Resale contracts - will commercial renters begin dumping contracts on the market if they can no longer easily rent the points?
2. Rental market - will average rental rates go up, down, or remain static if commercial renting is reduced meaningfully?

1. This is already happening right now.
2. Static or increased.

 

[Genie+]

I would suggest the problem is more the delta between the value rooms, pool/garden and boardwalk view. The latter 2 are the same point cost, but the view is more popular. During some periods, the value rooms are considerably cheaper point wise than the others.

Yes as a BWV owner I wouldn’t mind Standard, P/G and BW views point charts better reflecting demand. I seem to recall someone saying it might not be legal though.

 

[Leight19]

Yes as a BWV owner I wouldn’t mind Standard, P/G and BW views point charts better reflecting demand. I seem to recall someone saying it might not be legal though.

As a bwv owner I would be upset if they changed the distribution of points between standard and p/g. A lot of the value of owning at bwv is the standard view point chart even knowing the rooms are competitive to book and I won’t always get it. I also own akv and it’s even more extremely true here with value rooms. In the absence of value rooms at akv there’s virtually no reason to own akv vs sleep around points.

Bwv is not quite as true because it’s not always easy to get p/g at 7mo but still to some degree if you’re just booking P/g view you may be able to get by with SAP.

To me these value categories have an outweighed benefit to the value of the contract more than a neutral sum of its part. The deal with value category is more positive then the negative of the room categories that are less of a deal.

 

[Sandisw]

When Disney rents DVC villas for $$, what rooms are they renting, and when do those get taken out of the system for members to be able to book - aka how do they interact with the 11mo and 7mo windows?

What would be the overall impact if Disney offered members the ability to rent back points to disney, similar to magical beginnings? For example if they offered $15/pt on a semi-restricted gift card that could be used by the named owner(s) for dues, tickets and meals (I am thinking restricted to reduce the opportunity for laundering via facebook marketplace etc, and in exchange for high profit items for them). It would certainly be more reliable for owners (no flakey customers/ cancellations) and renters have the benefit of working with Disney rather than some rando from the interwebs.
For those who can’t use the points one year, it certainly would be easier, and the GC can be turned into due payments or passes for the next trip.

You could say they have done this with the ability to buy passes with points, but that is only available for magic extra customers, and the exchange rate sucks.

DVC owns there own points and they can book rooms with those points under the same rules as the rest of us. In addition, DVC gets to rent out rooms not booked at the 60 day mark to create breakage income. They have the ability to anticipate that based on trends and therefore can take them before that 60 day mark.

Any income generated from breakage is split between owners and DVC. We get up to 2.5% of our operating costs to offset dues. Anything about that amount goes to DVC.

Not sure that Disney would want to pay owners for the ability to rent our points because we compete with the cash side of things. The more points DVC is offering to rent for owners, the fewer cash rooms there are out there....

 

[Sandisw]

Yes as a BWV owner I wouldn’t mind Standard, P/G and BW views point charts better reflecting demand. I seem to recall someone saying it might not be legal though.

I don't know if there is anything from stopping them from adjusting the charts by view....they just have to balance. The problem is that the ratio of p/g to the others is large and so there may not be much they can do to even it more out to decrease the demand.

However, one thing DVC has the ability to do is level the chart so all days are the same, no matter the day.

 

[theww228]

If non-personal use and walking get corrections… does point washing come next?

What is point washing?

IMHO if Disney puts limits on the number of changes to the lead guest on reservations it will eliminate 99% of the issues with “commercial renting”. It would be very rare that an owner has a renter all lined up at the 11 month mark to grab a highly sought after date or room type. It might happen here and there, but it eliminates someone booking 10 studios for a race weekend or scooping up every AK value room and boardwalk standard view. I personally see no issue with someone renting a majority of their points if they are being used to book a reservation, and it stays in the name of the renter. Most renters are generally looking out less than the seven month period anyway. The points would be used regardless of it’s an owner or renter and is the same fairness where when someone is ready to book they can book.

 

[Genie+]

What is point washing?

Other timeshares have added the ability to ‘upgrade’ resale points for a price. DVC could offer resale owners a way to turn resale points into direct points.

DVD doesn’t make any profit from resale right now. This could add a new revenue stream beyond just selling direct points.

 

[bdrex28]

I am not sure what will happen with walking but to be honest, I think they recognize that any changes to stop that could have unintended consequences and that is a line they won’t cross lightly.

So, the sense is it’s certainly something being looked

However I think the comments about making sure owners aren’t negatively impacted or that it doesn’t cause owners ability to book go back to having to go in more often remains a priority for them in any potential change they could make.

Considering "walking" is typically you move your block of days slowly forward day by day or every few days, it shouldn't be hard to stop.

If their system sees a single room reservation advancing forward as a block multiple times AT their window then that's walking. It doesn't take away from being able to make changes, it takes away from doing whatever knows they are doing which is manipulating the system.

Now, let me also say that unless they come out and say "walking is against the rules" and they define what that is, then it's manipulating the system, but it's not "wrong" or against the "rules" IMO.

 

[Tatebeck]

Considering "walking" is typically you move your block of days slowly forward day by day or every few days, it shouldn't be hard to stop.

If their system sees a single room reservation advancing forward as a block multiple times AT their window then that's walking. It doesn't take away from being able to make changes, it takes away from doing whatever knows they are doing which is manipulating the system.

Now, let me also say that unless they come out and say "walking is against the rules" and they define what that is, then it's manipulating the system, but it's not "wrong" or against the "rules" IMO.

You could say they are technically skirting the rules by using the system in a way in which allows them to secure a room prior to the 11 month (or 11 month+7) window of their intended stay, when it is supposed to be first come first serve at that 11 month window. But some people are being served before that window by putting in a fake start date to begin the reservation early.

It's like traveling in the NBA. It's technically against the rules, but the system isn't really set up to stop it. But they may call someone out if it is egregious.

 

[Sandisw]

Considering "walking" is typically you move your block of days slowly forward day by day or every few days, it shouldn't be hard to stop.

If their system sees a single room reservation advancing forward as a block multiple times AT their window then that's walking. It doesn't take away from being able to make changes, it takes away from doing whatever knows they are doing which is manipulating the system.

Now, let me also say that unless they come out and say "walking is against the rules" and they define what that is, then it's manipulating the system, but it's not "wrong" or against the "rules" IMO.

But given the number of reservations done every day, it doesn’t seem like it’s an easy thing to set up in terms of a reservation being flagged as moving forward

Regardless the rules have to be clear to owners that certain modifications are okay and certain are not.

And since walking is really only a big concern when it happens at the exact 11 month, they have to decide how to set rules to fix that vs when moving it doesn’t really matter.

I just do not see DVC making booking rules that seem complicated to owners.

Honestly, though, I am holding out hope that they don’t change things because they realize that walking is the lesser of all evils.

 

[Tatebeck]

I've said it before, they could really fix it instantly by just making it so that when you make an 11+7 reservation, starting on the 7th day of the reservation and going forward, the single room you currently have locked down is not shown as a valid start date, only a middle or end date. You can see and choose as a starting date only the dates that other members making a new reservation can choose.

You can extend as normal, walk/push the start date up to those 7 days into the future, and if you try to move it further while it is still in the 11+7 the system can just say "sorry, you are trying to advance your reservation beyond what the first come first serve 11+7 reservation rules allow. Please choose different dates or wait for this date to be bookable under normal 11+7 rules"

And it wouldn't effect anyone except those walking reservations forward for more than a week

 

[Sandisw]

I've said it before, they could really fix it instantly by just making it so that when you make an 11+7 reservation, starting on the 7th day of the reservation and going forward, the single room you currently have locked down is not shown as a valid start date, only a middle or end date. You can see and choose as a starting date only the dates that other members making a new reservation can choose.

You can extend as normal, walk/push the start date up to those 7 days into the future, and if you try to move it further while it is still in the 11+7 the system can just say "sorry, you are trying to advance your reservation beyond what the first come first serve 11+7 reservation rules allow. Please choose different dates or wait for this date to be bookable under normal 11+7 rules"

And it wouldn't effect anyone except those walking reservations forward for more than a week

Except they have to allow for people to extend beyond 7 days as some people do take longer trips.

That means some large point owners might end up with an advantage here and could still tie up a room for a few weeks by extending and then dropping initial days when they pass whatever window is there to modify.

That is why having different rules for different situations makes this not as easy as it seems because DVC needs to take all that into consideration when deciding the rules.

If we here on the DiS can come up with the what if situations, and we are pretty advanced in our thinking, so will owners who don’t understand why DVC is making it complicated.

Right now, it’s simple…you can make a reservation 11 months plus 7 days from the calendar check in date for home resort and 7 plus 7 for others

You can modify the reservation without penalty up until 31 days before the check in day.

I just think that if they decide to actually implement changes, they will want to keep it as simple as the can so that it is seen as an enhancement to being able to book our trips.

 

[theww228]

I don't know if there is anything from stopping them from adjusting the charts by view....they just have to balance. The problem is that the ratio of p/g to the others is large and so there may not be much they can do to even it more out to decrease the demand.

However, one thing DVC has the ability to do is level the chart so all days are the same, no matter the day.

Why don’t they adjust the points so that it equals demand if the animal kingdom value rooms were a point or two less than a standard room there wouldn’t be such high demand for them. If the boardwalk standard view rooms were only two points less than a pool and garden view they wouldn’t be as popular so maybe all the pool and gardens drop by a point and the standards come up if Disney wants to “fix the problem”, adjust the points to bring down the regular rooms and bring up the points of the specialty rooms or with the concierge level at animal Kingdom maybe they need to be a couple points higher.

 

[Sandisw]

Why don’t they adjust the points so that it equals demand if the animal kingdom value rooms were a point or two less than a standard room there wouldn’t be such high demand for them. If the boardwalk standard view rooms were only two points less than a pool and garden view they wouldn’t be as popular so maybe all the pool and gardens drop by a point and the standards come up if Disney wants to “fix the problem”, adjust the points to bring down the regular rooms and bring up the points of the specialty rooms or with the concierge level at animal Kingdom maybe they need to be a couple points higher.

They can make changes but they still have to balance against total points at the resort.

For example, there are 246 studios at BWV…IIRC, only 52 BW view. are SV, 29 SV, and 165 pool/garden view

The average difference is 4 or 5 nights so in order to to close that gap they have to work with the ratio between room types.

So, it’s not quite as easy as it sounds because they need to make the numbers work.

But, in theory, I agree..if one view is out of whack with the rest, then up the cost…which seems to have happened in 2026.

They also have to work within the no more 20% change rule. The number of points can never go up or down more than 20% in any one year.

That means a change can take a few years to accomplish it.