DVC plans to target commercial renters

[Sandisw]

Exactly.

I am curious to hear from some of the folks here on DIS who could barely allow themselves to acknowledge that commercial renting exists and that the concern was way overblown. Even DVC is FINALLY recognizing that it's a problem.

I am one who said that all the confirmed reservations didn’t mean that all of them were in violation but it might be a a set of owners who found ways around the rules.

At todays meeting, they confirmed that it’s not widespread but that it’s a smaller subset who are breaking what the rules should be and why they are expanding the team to go after it.

But they reaffirmed an owner’s right to rent points when they need to but it’s the commercial aspect that is not allowed…those who are doing it frequently over and over.

 

[BlueGreen5]

Unlike walking, there is a clear financial advantage to Disney to shut down commercial renting... Assuming Disney can fill the rooms on their own..

Yeah, but doesn't Disney have to pay us breakage fees if they fill "our" rooms? I guess I'm not really familiar with that policy, but I always thought that if they can't fill a room and convert it to cash, they have to pay some amount for the room which probably eats into profit quite considerably.

 

[Sandisw]

Yeah, but doesn't Disney have to pay us breakage fees if they fill "our" rooms? I guess I'm not really familiar with that policy, but I always thought that if they can't fill a room and convert it to cash, they have to pay some amount for the room which probably eats into profit quite considerably.

Rooms that are rented for cash by DVC created breakage income. We get up to 2.5% if the operating budget to offset dues.

Every resort reaches the maximum every year. The income beyond that goes directly to DVC.

So, in one way, less breakage is less money for them. But they don’t have a penalty to owners if they can’t rent them.

 

[DonMacGregor]

It will be interesting to see how Disney executes on this. The balance is to be able to say to say to prospective buyers "you can rent out your points when you don't want to use them" while still doing everything they can to limit these commercial points out there...

Friends at home playing along, in mind those commercial renters are "competing" with Disney to fill the rooms... Mickey would rather keep all that money to himself than have to split it with a middleman or three.... Unlike walking, there is a clear financial advantage to Disney to shut down commercial renting... Assuming Disney can fill the rooms on their own..

BUT IT'S NOT AGAINST THE RUUUUUUUUUULES!!!!!

 

[Sprinkles&Sprints]

I would not personally support this, but I could get behind something like the initial reservation you make can only be modified say 3 times.

Agreed. There’s so much day to day variability with flight prices, there are times when I’ll book a longer stay until I know my exact arrival/departure dates and then drop front/back if needed.

 

[AstroBlasters]

On Walking, I would favor a new booking rule being implemented saying that reservations made during the first month of the 11-month Home Resort period cannot be modified to drop days at the beginning of the reservation. If a member drops a day(s) at the start of a reservation then the entire reservation will be canceled and the member has to rebook the days they want. The member could still modify a reservation during the first month to add days at the back end of the reservation and/or to add/change names of guests on the reservation. Any reservation made at the 10-month mark or later would not be subject to this rule.

Someone trying to Walk a reservation could still gamble that they could cancel their reservation and quickly rebook a new reservation with a later start date. But they run the risk of losing some or all of their dates if another member steps in and grabs those dates before the first member can begin a new booking.

Yeah…. absolutely not. We don’t need an overly complex system getting even more complex. Stop the commercial renting and bots and then see what happens.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I am one who said that all the confirmed reservations didn’t mean that all of them were in violation but it might be a a set of owners who found ways around the rules.

At todays meeting, they confirmed that it’s not widespread but that it’s a smaller subset who are breaking what the rules should be and why they are expanding the team to go after it.

But they reaffirmed an owner’s right to rent points when they need to but it’s the commercial aspect that is not allowed…those who are doing it frequently over and over.

Speaking as a corporate lawyer (not at Disney!), I would *not* say they confirmed it is not widespread—they stated it is not widespread, which is exactly what a corporate lawyer would tell them to stay, irrespective of truth (so they don’t hand disgruntled owners unable to use points for certain room types most of the year an easy lawsuit). My guess is that it’s widespread at some resorts (e.g. BWV and AKV) but less widespread at others (e.g. RIV and VGF). The fact that they have assembled a team (and evidently new hires, per the reporting) to go after it suggests that it is widespread (likely on the most profitable rooms) and that Disney has decided it’s worth investing money, time, and technology to crackdown.

I have said for a while that once they unload as many PVB tower points as they can at high initial sales prices, they may try to clamp down on commercial renting because they are having real trouble filling all their hotel rooms both this year and next.

 

[Sandisw]

Speaking as a corporate lawyer (not at Disney!), I would *not* say they confirmed it is not widespread—they stated it is not widespread, which is exactly what a corporate lawyer would tell them to stay, irrespective of truth (so they don’t hand disgruntled owners unable to use points for certain room types most of the year an easy lawsuit). My guess is that it’s widespread at some resorts (e.g. BWV and AKV) but less widespread at others (e.g. RIV and VGF). The fact that they have assembled a team (and evidently new hires, per the reporting) to go after it suggests that it is widespread (likely on the most profitable rooms) and that Disney has decided it’s worth investing money, time, and technology to crackdown.

I have said for a while that once they unload as many PVB tower points as they can at high initial sales prices, they may try to clamp down on commercial renting because they are having real trouble filling all their hotel rooms both this year and next.

Thank you…the word stated is definitely better choice of words.

One thing they did state at more than one of the meetings…I attended two…is that it is about the frequency of rentals from those with a lot of points and when they made the comment about not widespread, my take is they were referring to the number of owners who are crossing the line into the commercial world.

So that seems to be in line with the language of the contract that talks about “pattern of rental activity” and that as owners we have the right to rent when we can’t use our points.

They were very specific to include that commercial is not allowed, so I think this is about stopping the owners in violations vs looking at specific rooms being rented.

But also to confirm that owners are definitely allowed to rent.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Thank you…the word stated is definitely better choice of words.

One thing they did state at more than one of the meetings…I attended two…is that it is about the frequency of rentals from those with a lot of points and when they made the comment about not widespread, my take is they were referring to the number of owners who are crossing the line into the commercial world.

So that seems to be in line with the language of the contract that talks about “pattern of rental activity” and that as owners we have the right to rent when we can’t use our points.

They were very specific to include that commercial is not allowed, so I think this is about stopping the owners in violations vs looking at specific rooms being rented.

But also to confirm that owners are definitely allowed to rent.

I wonder what threshold constitutes “a lot of points” in a DVC executive’s minds….

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Thank you…the word stated is definitely better choice of words.

One thing they did state at more than one of the meetings…I attended two…is that it is about the frequency of rentals from those with a lot of points and when they made the comment about not widespread, my take is they were referring to the number of owners who are crossing the line into the commercial world.

So that seems to be in line with the language of the contract that talks about “pattern of rental activity” and that as owners we have the right to rent when we can’t use our points.

They were very specific to include that commercial is not allowed, so I think this is about stopping the owners in violations vs looking at specific rooms being rented.

But also to confirm that owners are definitely allowed to rent.

Thanks for sharing the extra commentary— what you are saying makes a lot of sense. I would guess they want to reassure most owners with less than a few thousand points that they aren’t likely to be targeted, but only the people who own a lot of points specifically to run sophisticated rental enterprises?

I wonder what threshold constitutes “a lot of points” in a DVC executive’s minds….

Haha, that is the question. I wonder if it will be a total amount of points owned and percentage of points rented question?

A person with 3000 points who rents about 400 a year should be viewed differently than a person with 1000 points who rents 900 a year, in my opinion—-but then there’s the devil in the details— how do you know that 900 were rented versus gifted to family friends?

Presumably they have the ability to see which accounts have made a lot of bookings right at 8:00:00 on the nose, only to change names later? I would start there.

 

[sndral]

I don't know which bandwagon to jump on. It is tough to choose between the newly announced anti-walking effort or the crusade against commercial renting about to be launched. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

They pretty much promised to take steps to curb commercial rentals by ‘this time next year,’ they said they’ve hired folks & are focused on the practice of commercial rentals. So my money’s on…commercial renting.

Thank you…the word stated is definitely better choice of words.

One thing they did state at more than one of the meetings…I attended two…is that it is about the frequency of rentals from those with a lot of points and when they made the comment about not widespread, my take is they were referring to the number of owners who are crossing the line into the commercial world.

So that seems to be in line with the language of the contract that talks about “pattern of rental activity” and that as owners we have the right to rent when we can’t use our points.

They were very specific to include that commercial is not allowed, so I think this is about stopping the owners in violations vs looking at specific rooms being rented.

But also to confirm that owners are definitely allowed to rent.

When you are listening to executives who’ve been coached by the legal team about what they can & cannot say regarding interpretation of documents, best to listen carefully to their actual words & to not make assumptions about what they ‘meant.’
For example just because they described big point owners renting multiple times a year as conduct they are focusing on does not mean that is the only type of owner/conduct they are scrutinizing, they very well could also be looking at less egregious conduct but chose not to talk about that at this meeting.
They did describe the type of rental activity that was ‘allowed’ as someone who can’t go one year and rents out their points to just recover their MFs. So anyone who’s renting for $8/9 per point (depending on their MFs) can breathe a sigh of relief .
It’ll be fascinating to see what course they take - as @Brian Noble suggests they’ll likely adopt rules similar to those used by other timeshares systems, so anyone eager for a hint of what’s next may want to dive into some of those court cases.

 

[Sandisw]

I wonder what threshold constitutes “a lot of points” in a DVC executive’s minds….

My impression from both meetings is that it’s people with a lot of points who are renting a lot…and that the threshold is high based on the comment that they do monitor and act but it’s not widespread…which as I explained, I interpreted to mean number of owners.

The notion that we are allowed to rent as owners, just not commercially was clear. Two examples were can’t travel that year, want to offset some dues you are paying.

IIRC this part…they know that there is an ease in renting with social media and stuff for owners, but that has also increased the other part.

After both meetings, I left feeling confident that they are going after owners who have worked around current rules that have been in place.

 

[Phatscott25]

After both meetings, I left feeling confident that they are going after owners who have worked around current rules that have been in place.

By current rules, are you referring to the "20 rentals per year" rule?

 

[DonMacGregor]

I'm still trying to get my (somewhat sore) head around the cognitive dissonance required to hear them say " "[w]e’ve got a whole team of folks focused on this.” while still maintaining that it is a small problem involving only a few members. Or, that the targets are relatively few and limited to only those with a high number of contracts or a high number of points.

DVC (and Disney as a whole) isn't going to create "a whole team of folks focused on this" if they thought that it truly is only a very minor number of offenders. If they did, it would be a handful of existing cast members who spend a couple of hours every other Tuesday working on it.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I'm still trying to get my (somewhat sore) head around the cognitive dissonance required to hear them say " "[w]e’ve got a whole team of folks focused on this.” while still maintaining that it is a small problem involving only a few members. Or, that the targets are relatively few and limited to only those with a high number of contracts or a high number of points.

DVC (and Disney as a whole) isn't going to create "a whole team of folks focused on this" if they thought that it truly is only a very minor number of offenders. If they did, it would be a handful of existing cast members who spend a couple of hours every other Tuesday working on it.

It’s going to have to be like an FBI or IRS team trying to work through all of the shell companies to see who actually owns what and what the overall impact is.

 

[Genie+]

NOPE, JUST A NORMAL DVCer HERE!

Yikes. I think I need to figure out how to add a disclaimer to my profile!

If you click your own username, go into Account Details, you’ll find something like:



That Custom title is currently showing as Mouseketeer for you and can be changed.

 

[Sandisw]

By current rules, are you referring to the "20 rentals per year" rule?

My take is that they are looking at the high point owners more strategically and it may or may not still involve that.

One comment said something to the effect it was about those being smart enough to get around the rules of what they have in place for commercial.

Maybe those technical things like LLCs, multiple memberships, etc. I get the sense they may be adjusting how they handle it and why they have increased the team to make sure it’s being dealt with.

They did state that it’s not widespread…which I interpreted to mean in relationship to the ownership as a whole.

What was reaffirmed was that renting is allowed when owners need to do it and that with all the social media outlets, etc. it is easier for rentals to happen…or something to that effect.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm still trying to get my (somewhat sore) head around the cognitive dissonance required to hear them say " "[w]e’ve got a whole team of folks focused on this.” while still maintaining that it is a small problem involving only a few members. Or, that the targets are relatively few and limited to only those with a high number of contracts or a high number of points.

DVC (and Disney as a whole) isn't going to create "a whole team of folks focused on this" if they thought that it truly is only a very minor number of offenders. If they did, it would be a handful of existing cast members who spend a couple of hours every other Tuesday working on it.

I got the sense….could be wrong…that the team was created behind the scenes to handle the situation to address the concerns…as well as to ensure consistent enforcement and even to update the idea of commercial.

No mention of how many people that entails, but they did say it’s always been monitored and enforced….

 

[muppets3d]

I feel like scaring away the commercial renters will help with the walking substantially. Nobody wants to lose any of the flexibility we enjoy as DVC members that’s for sure

 

[TCRAIG]

I'm still trying to get my (somewhat sore) head around the cognitive dissonance required to hear them say " "[w]e’ve got a whole team of folks focused on this.” while still maintaining that it is a small problem involving only a few members. Or, that the targets are relatively few and limited to only those with a high number of contracts or a high number of points.

DVC (and Disney as a whole) isn't going to create "a whole team of folks focused on this" if they thought that it truly is only a very minor number of offenders. If they did, it would be a handful of existing cast members who spend a couple of hours every other Tuesday working on it.

Well, at least in theory, it could be a team of 1 and (at least it’s not how I’m reading their statement) they could be tasked with other projects as well - in other words - blowing smoke…while I think we’ll get some action on shutting down a small group of known commercial renters - I’m not so sure we’ll end up with massive/major changes to DVC booking/modification rules….at least I hope not…but I could be wrong.