Dream, veteran cruiser and 2 big disappointments

[volfan1978]

This has been a great discussion...and again I think I'm in violent agreement with Hundredacre about the fact that kids need to learn toughness and healthy conflict resolution as part of growing up. The kids who don't learn those lessons are the ones crying about "safe spaces" on college campuses right now.

But while we're on vacation having fun I'm not going to stand by and let bullying and abuse by older children become "teachable moments". Too much other stuff to do on the ship to let poorly parented children ruin my kids' fun.

 

[mab2012]

To me this is so out there. We have had 2 go through this age level and neither would have ever done anything like that. In fact they would have protected a much younger child.

I'm sure it happens. Especially when a few kids get together, and get overexcited and rambunctious, and stop paying attention to their actions. Most of the time it's probably not even deliberate. But I also think that the counsellors are watching out for this sort of thing, and will intervene when they see it. Disney does NOT want kids to get hurt in the clubs; it's bad for business. They likely don't catch it every time, but I'm certain it's not simply ignored.

 

[mab2012]

I don't know how old your kids are, but mine are 32 and 26, so I've seen a lot of interactions. I have a granddaughter now and we took her on a cruise when she was almost 3. The second day we were in Nemo's Reef, some older kids were in there and just mowed her over, pushed her out of the way on the slide, sprayed her straight in the face with the water feature. Well, it was no surprise to me that she wouldn't step foot in the place the rest of the trip.

I don't think this kind of behavior is limited to Nemo's Reef.

You don't know how many times it's happening in the club. Maybe Disney can do a survey of how many young children go in the club and then never return and why. All I'm saying is that I see a lot of bullying/misbehavior on the cruise and I think the age range of the club is inappropriate.

What I see is that parents who have kids spanning across many ages is pre-emptive parental concern, to use your words, that they want their siblings to be together to protect each other and to play with each other in case no one will play with them. Their children or the parents have decided this is what makes them happy, rather than having to learn to get along on their own.

Post #82.

 

[gotomu212]

I don't know how old your kids are, but mine are 32 and 26, so I've seen a lot of interactions. I have a granddaughter now and we took her on a cruise when she was almost 3. The second day we were in Nemo's Reef, some older kids were in there and just mowed her over, pushed her out of the way on the slide, sprayed her straight in the face with the water feature. Well, it was no surprise to me that she wouldn't step foot in the place the rest of the trip.

I don't think this kind of behavior is limited to Nemo's Reef.

You don't know how many times it's happening in the club. Maybe Disney can do a survey of how many young children go in the club and then never return and why. All I'm saying is that I see a lot of bullying/misbehavior on the cruise and I think the age range of the club is inappropriate..

I don't want to make assumptions or discount your experience but in the spirit of arlopop's excellent gender parenting post I'd like to add that I've also noticed "grandparent"-ing differences in perceived wrongs.

Obviously this doesn't apply universally, but I have noticed a distinct difference in what my mother perceives as bullying or aggressive play towards her grandson and what I would perceive. We have been at a playground where my son was innocently knocked over and my mom was up and over there so fast, picking him up, complaining to me about how rough this other bully was, and in general fussing over him. I on the other hand saw it as an accident that didn't even warrant a raised eyebrow and wouldn't have even stood up.

Hilariously this was the same woman who once told me as a kid that I was fine and to not be so over dramatic when my friend hit me in the face with a baseball (and my grandma rushed over and ended up giving me ice cream and talking about that "bad Heather girl" for years). I think that's a granparents job. I can honestly say that while I have witnessed rowdy kids on a cruise I have never seen actual bullying or any behavior that I thought I needed to intervene in.

 

[wombat_5606]

Post #82.

Interesting. But Disney used to separate the kids clubs till some very vocal parents complained. Now it might be that some very vocal parents want it be like it was originally.

 

[belac]

I know they are watching, saw it first hand when a child (that we knew) accused mine of hitting her. When she saw us at pick up she came running over to us saying that DS hit her and the counselor stepped right in, stating to the girl no he did not, I saw what you did to him and all he did was walk away from you and you went back and slapped him. She reassured us he did not touch her or provoker her in any way. Same aged children and they knew each other. I am very happy she saw that all play out or it would have been an issue. Funny thing is when the counselor was speaking to her, her parents showed up who thought their little sweetie would never do what the others were complaining about the whole cruise. it was awesome.... for us that is.

 

[wombat_5606]

I don't want to make assumptions or discount your experience but in the spirit of arlopop's excellent gender parenting post I'd like to add that I've also noticed "grandparent"-ing differences in perceived wrongs.

Obviously this doesn't apply universally, but I have noticed a distinct difference in what my mother perceives as bullying or aggressive play towards her grandson and what I would perceive. We have been at a playground where my son was innocently knocked over and my mom was up and over there so fast, picking him up, complaining to me about how rough this other bully was, and in general fussing over him. I on the other hand saw it as an accident that didn't even warrant a raised eyebrow and wouldn't have even stood up.

Hilariously this was the same woman who once told me as a kid that I was fine and to not be so over dramatic when my friend hit me in the face with a baseball (and my grandma rushed over and ended up giving me ice cream and talking about that "bad Heather girl" for years). I think that's a granparents job. I can honestly say that while I have witnessed rowdy kids on a cruise I have never seen actual bullying or any behavior that I thought I needed to intervene in.

Yes, I have seen parents and grandparents like that. It's not me. Well, see I don't really understand how you innocently knock someone over if you are looking at them and reach out to push them out of your way. Or aim a spraying feature at someone, not one child accidentally, but one after the other.

Maybe I have a different perspective because I have only sailed Disney one time with my sweet little granddaughter. I'm sure when you are on your vacation with your family, you aren't paying much attention to others. I, on the other hand, have sailed most of my cruises, solo...not single...solo. So, it allows me a lot of time to "people watch". I've observed a lot of children, parents and grandchildren. I've observed quite a few children that needed some one to intervene.

I have also read about and seen with my own eyes, children pushing past people to get on the elevator, pushing all of the buttons on the elevator, sitting as a group on the stairs and making no effort to let someone pass, stealing things from fish extenders........just to name a few.

Perhaps I've been on more cruises. I would venture to say this behavior goes on, on all cruise lines. But, I think you are mistaken if you don't think it happens on Disney.

Just to clarify, I never said it was bullying. Another poster used that term.

 

[gotomu212]

Yes, I have seen parents and grandparents like that. It's not me. Well, see I don't really understand how you innocently knock someone over if you are looking at them and reach out to push them out of your way. Or aim a spraying feature at someone, not one child accidentally, but one after the other.

Maybe I have a different perspective because I have only sailed Disney one time with my sweet little granddaughter. I'm sure when you are on your vacation with your family, you aren't paying much attention to others. I, on the other hand, have sailed most of my cruises, solo...not single...solo. So, it allows me a lot of time to "people watch". I've observed a lot of children, parents and grandchildren. I've observed quite a few children that needed some one to intervene.

I have also read about and seen with my own eyes, children pushing past people to get on the elevator, pushing all of the buttons on the elevator, sitting as a group on the stairs and making no effort to let someone pass, stealing things from fish extenders........just to name a few.

Perhaps I've been on more cruises. I would venture to say this behavior goes on, on all cruise lines. But, I think you are mistaken if you don't think it happens on Disney.

Just to clarify, I never said it was bullying. Another poster used that term.

Fair enough. We have different points of intervention and that's fine. I've been on a lot of cruises too and people watch obsessively so I think we're seeing the same behaviors and just having different reactions to it. I also cruised starting when my son was 2 so I've experienced the younger kid in older settings, but I don't think kids sitting on stairs or pushing past people on an elevator is the same as mistreating a 3 year old in the club.

Just for the record in your post #119 you did use the term bullying. You specifically said "all I'm saying is that I see a lot of bullying/misbehavior in the cruise". I'm fine with having a difference of opinion but please don't say I misquoted you.

 

[TestingH2O]

I have noticed a distinct difference in what my mother perceives as bullying or aggressive play towards her grandson and what I would perceive

This is so true!

In terms of the gender parenting question, it's interesting that, in our family, we are definitely opposite the typical gender divide. I'm much more likely to tell DD to brush off a bump or scrape than DH is.

Being a parent is an impossible task. Are you involved enough? Too much? Are you protecting them from danger? Keeping them from learning resilience? I'm probably more hands off than many, but I know I'm more involved than my parents were. I try to talk myself down, but, honestly, I'm more afraid of what other parents will say if I let my child live a little than I am afraid of something actually happening to her at the hands of another child or via an accident.

 

[wombat_5606]

Fair enough. We have different points of intervention and that's fine. I've been on a lot of cruises too and people watch obsessively so I think we're seeing the same behaviors and just having different reactions to it. I also cruised starting when my son was 2 so I've experienced the younger kid in older settings, but I don't think kids sitting on stairs or pushing past people on an elevator is the same as mistreating a 3 year old in the club.

Just for the record in your post #119 you did use the term bullying. You specifically said "all I'm saying is that I see a lot of bullying/misbehavior in the cruise". I'm fine with having a difference of opinion but please don't say I misquoted you.

We do have a difference of opinion. I don't understand why you point out that pushing past people on an elevator isn't the same as mistreating a 3 year old in the club but don't mention if you think someone pushing a 3 year old down is mistreatment and worthy of intervention. If seeing these types of behavior don't elicit the same type of reactions as me, we have a huge difference of opinion.

I wasn't accusing you of misquoting me, just wanted to clarify. I can understand why there is confusion. I only used that term because mab2012 defined what I described as bullying. It was just in response to that post. Perhaps I should have said "what you call bullying"/misbehavior in my response to mab2012, instead of using the bullying/misbehavior. Misbehavior was mine. So, technically, you are right, I used the term, but it wasn't mine. Perhaps I will go and delete it.

 

[Ofinn]

I cant imagine an older kid bullying a toddler. Whats the point? You will see kids bullying other kids their own age. Especially the Edge age. There's bullying, fights, kissing, all the stuff you would expect from middle schoolers. They also have a great time, and make lots of friends, but not without some tween drama mixed in. My youngest tells me everything.

 

[gotomu212]

We do have a difference of opinion. I don't understand why you point out that pushing past people on an elevator isn't the same as mistreating a 3 year old in the club but don't mention if you think someone pushing a 3 year old down is mistreatment and worthy of intervention. If seeing these types of behavior don't elicit the same type of reactions as me, we have a huge difference of opinion.

I really will make this my last post because I feel like I'm dominating this thread and don't want to completely hijack it... But this thread is about little kids being mistreated in the clubs and none of your examples included your granddaughter being mistreated in a club. As someone who has used the clubs considerable times I do not see the level of aggression you note. I don't necessarily think a 3-year being pushed over is an automatic action requiring intervention. Many posters have said when something like this occurs in the Club counsellors and other kids step in to protect the younger kids so I don't see this as a problem that requires them to separate the clubs.

I also noted that you said your granddaughter wasn't yet 3 on the ship and under the current rules wouldn't be allowed in the clubs so similar to others who have posted on a simliar thread I'm just confused why you and others have such strong opinions on what you think occurs in clubs that you havent had the experience of using? I don't mean that condescendingly, but I think that might be why we have such different reactions to the perceived dangers of having mixed ages in the club.

Thanks for a very interesting discussion

 

[wombat_5606]

I really will make this my last post because I feel like I'm dominating this thread and don't want to completely hijack it... But this thread is about little kids being mistreated in the clubs and none of your examples included your granddaughter being mistreated in a club. As someone who has used the clubs considerable times I do not see the level of aggression you note. I don't necessarily think a 3-year being pushed over is an automatic action requiring intervention. Many posters have said when something like this occurs in the Club counsellors and other kids step in to protect the younger kids so I don't see this as a problem that requires them to separate the clubs.

I also noted that you said your granddaughter wasn't yet 3 on the ship and under the current rules wouldn't be allowed in the clubs so similar to others who have posted on a simliar thread I'm just confused why you and others have such strong opinions on what you think occurs in clubs that you havent had the experience of using? I don't mean that condescendingly, but I think that might be why we have such different reactions to the perceived dangers of having mixed ages in the club.

Thanks for a very interesting discussion

Well, I did state that I have read about it happening in the clubs. In fact, there is a current thread called Kids Club Concerns that illustrates some occasions where young children have been mistreated by older kids in the clubs, with no CM intervention.

The very reason I am on this thread is because I saw first hand what happened in Nemo Reef to my granddaughter. It stands to reason that this could occur in the clubs also. I would be surprised if that boy wasn't in the club that trip.

Just because I saw it at Nemo Reef and not in the club, doesn't mean it won't or hasn't occurred in the club. Because I experienced it in Nemo Reef I would be hesitant to have her use the clubs until she was older.

This thread is about someone who is disappointed in the ages in the clubs. I am too, for the valid reasons I have stated.

I don't mean to disagree with you again, but I don't think that just because you didn't see anything when you dropped off or picked your child up, it's not happening. How many unhappy young children is acceptable?

So disagree all you want, but I will maintain that the behavior I have seen outside the club by the older children, will occur in the club at some point. If it's to the extent that my vacation is impacted by another, then I'm going to speak up.

You know there are myriad experiences that impact the conclusions that people make. But to dismiss my or someone else's concerns because you haven't seen it or your child hasn't been impacted, isn't very productive. You could just state that you haven't experienced this and leave it a that.

I'm glad you and your children can currently enjoy the clubs.

 

[arlopop]

I feel as if I've started a conflict here about misbehavior and the proper responses to it. That wasn't my intention. People parent very differently and we have ALL been judged for it at some point. I really didn't want this to be that way at all. I hoped we could share experiences and points of view. That's the way I learn best.

In addition, I don't want to give the impression that I think a "hands-off - kids will be kids" approach is ideal, for my kids or even for kids I encounter. Let me share another story.

13 years ago I took my wife to Paris. I had been before and wanted to show her one of my favorite cities. During the trip we visited the Eiffel Tower. We toured it. There are a series of elevators you take up as you go and after we had gone up we came back down to a middle level for lunch. We noticed there appeared to be a field trip of middle-school aged French students exploring as well.

When we finished lunch we went back to the elevator and were in the front of the queue. The elevators take a loooooong time. As we waited, some other couples joined the queue behind us. They were older. I believe one couple was German and the other Belgian. We smiled and waited. After a bit a group of 6 or 7 of the students got in line behind us. They were loud and goofy and had no chaperone apparently. The kids were speaking in French to one another, but the boys, perhaps having seen too many American movies, began yelling English profanities at one another - "m****r f****r, *******, etc - and laughing at it. They were following a path exactly like all kids that age everywhere do - finding the edges of the envelope and pushing, testing boundaries.

The older couples looked a little uncomfortable but we looked at one another shrugging. As the elevator approached however the kids began pushing their way forward to get in first, cutting towards the front of the queue, and sidling by the older couples. As the elevator stopped and the doors opened the kids began trying to push by my wife and me.

I threw out my arm in front of the first and shouted, "Arretez!" (Stop). They all halted. As I stepped in front of the now wide-eyed kids I turned to the older couples and waved them in with, "Apres Vous, s'il vous plais" (after you, please.) They smiled and stepped in. I waved in my wife. I turned to the kids and said smilingly, "Merci, merci beaucoup," before getting in myself. I held the door for the kids who shamefully entered and stayed at the back wall, heads down. It was the quietest elevator ride ever.

At the bottom the older couples got off smiling at us (whispering, "Danke") and I led my wife out.

I only tell this story to show that I believe sometimes, when the kids are not our own, if there isn't an adult in charge of them, we are responsible for helping them "get it" - politely, and in the most adult way possible, but in a manner that makes certain they understand. I am aware it can be touchy and uncomfortable for all of us (my wife still questions my wisdom that day,) but when boundaries are crossed a flare in the darkness can make things brighter and better, for everyone.

 

[arlopop]

I should say I have enjoyed this discussion and honestly got some insight. I appreciate it. Thank you.

We leave in 20 days on the EBPC (!!!) and just want to say if anyone here is on that cruise as well and happens to see one of my children behaving in a manner that is inappropriate, you have my permission- indeed, my blessing - to call them out on it. With any luck there will be no need, but kids will always be kids.

 

[TestingH2O]

I don't want to give the impression that I think a "hands-off - kids will be kids" approach is ideal, for my kids or even for kids I encounter.

I don't think anything you've said at all indicates you think Lord Of the Flies is a great work of non-fiction you think we should emulate. But I appreciate that your posts have brought up the idea that, as with most things in life, there is a range of what people think is "normal." Each child is a unique person with his/her own needs and history. Any thought that one set of discipline, boundaries, or expectations would fit all children is, I think, what makes this particular discussion so frustrating for many. What works for one child won't work for another. What one parent sees as normal childhood interactions will make another very uncomfortable.

We all have to do what's right for our own kids and make sure we are putting them in situations that honor who they are.

 

[mike0035]

Just off the Fantasy 3 weeks ago, at Palo Brunch we served ourselves from the buffet

 

[Hundredacre]

I should say I have enjoyed this discussion and honestly got some insight. I appreciate it. Thank you.

We leave in 20 days on the EBPC (!!!) and just want to say if anyone here is on that cruise as well and happens to see one of my children behaving in a manner that is inappropriate, you have my permission- indeed, my blessing - to call them out on it. With any luck there will be no need, but kids will always be kids.

Wish we were going to be on that one! Have a great cruise!!!