Dream, veteran cruiser and 2 big disappointments

[RedSox68]

I just did Palo brunch on the wonder last month, and we were able to serve ourselves, so what you had sounds weird.

As far as the kids club, yes, I heard that changed some time ago, luckily after my kids aged out of the club. When ours were younger, we did want them together, and that's why we scheduled the cruises when they would hit the same club age group. Nowadays it's just too big of an age gap.

Sorry you had so many disappointments.

We've done Palo brunch on both Wonder and Magic, but when we did it on the Fantasy in 2014 they "served" us while holding our plates. I didn't like it at all. In fact we like the set up at the old Palos rather than the one on the new ships. Just our preference.

 

[Hundredacre]

While I agree that part of parenting is preparing your kids for a world where people are frequently selfish and discourteous, I respectfully and completely disagree that a vacation is the appropriate time to send your kid to the school of hard knocks. A family vacation should be a fun time to escape from the everyday grind and a time to make fond memories, not to have a 4 year old learn that some people just plain suck.

Part of me agrees with you. And the other part of me grappling with my "millennial" child feels we worry to much about this. It's not like there is gang violence and drug dealing in there. I remember fifteen years ago watching through the glass as the day was ending at my son's over priced pre school and seeing another child (same age) take the toy he had been happily playing with out of his hands while my child sat stunned. My heart ached and I got flushed, angry. There was a teacher right there!! Why didn't she rectify the situation! For me this was a clear cut case of right and wrong. My child still just sat stunned. I made my way into the room (it was the end of the day, remember) and gave him another toy and told him not to let people take his toys away. It has taken me 15 years to realize why that teacher did not intervene. I took away his moment. His moment to feel violated and angry and to decide what to do about it-- even if he didn't do anything about it. I set up a situation where he began looking to others to solve his problems. The teacher never said anything to me and I was subtle and did not make a big deal but I know she saw. And now I know what she was probably thinking.

Now with my younger two children-- I like it when someone does something like that. I like watching them face adversity. I am not talking about endangering them or subjecting them to abuse. But someone pushing ahead at a video game? Yes, I let it happen. Even if they don't react. I know they are mulling it over, processing it.

Our last assistant server actually told us how horrified she was at how most parents on dcl catered to their children's every whim. I was kind of shocked she had said it, but it stuck with me. I think she was trying to complement me but it made me uncomfortable because I was thinking i am actually one of them!! This new me is recent! I think it is hard sometimes to realize we are over bearing. I thought I was the most liberal parent on the planet. I do totally get where you're coming from. And I was there once. I am just offering my experience.

 

[FigmentSpark]

Some kids need to be told that they shouldn't let others step on them. Kids will take what they can and if your child just lets people cut in, thinking they are being nice, kids will take advantage of that. Sometimes you have to tell your kid not to let others take advantage.

I think you did the right thing by telling your child they shouldn't let others take things away, rather than have him learn that others just take stuff away and he should just expect it. And that other teacher was not thinking what you think. The teacher was thinking 'I'm glad the mom didn't berate me for not doing my job'. Her job is to teach manners in her classroom, not allow that sort of bullying (yes, it starts there).

As for letting them experience the bad, as well, of course, but you have to be able to follow it with a lesson. The right thing for that teacher to have done would be to call the offending child over to yours and have him/her apologize, then use that as a teaching moment of how to behave. Yes, in the 'real world' that will happen to them. They have time to learn that. It doesn't have to be in preschool.

 

[arlopop]

Part of me agrees with you. And the other part of me grappling with my "millennial" child feels we worry to much about this. It's not like there is gang violence and drug dealing in there. I remember fifteen years ago watching through the glass as the day was ending at my son's over priced pre school and seeing another child (same age) take the toy he had been happily playing with out of his hands while my child sat stunned. My heart ached and I got flushed, angry. There was a teacher right there!! Why didn't she rectify the situation! For me this was a clear cut case of right and wrong. My child still just sat stunned. I made my way into the room (it was the end of the day, remember) and gave him another toy and told him not to let people take his toys away. It has taken me 15 years to realize why that teacher did not intervene. I took away his moment. His moment to feel violated and angry and to decide what to do about it-- even if he didn't do anything about it. I set up a situation where he began looking to others to solve his problems. The teacher never said anything to me and I was subtle and did not make a big deal but I know she saw. And now I know what she was probably thinking.

Now with my younger two children-- I like it when someone does something like that. I like watching them face adversity. I am not talking about endangering them or subjecting them to abuse. But someone pushing ahead at a video game? Yes, I let it happen. Even if they don't react. I know they are mulling it over, processing it.

Our last assistant server actually told us how horrified she was at how most parents on dcl catered to their children's every whim. I was kind of shocked she had said it, but it stuck with me. I think she was trying to complement me but it made me uncomfortable because I was thinking i am actually one of them!! This new me is recent! I think it is hard sometimes to realize we are over bearing. I thought I was the most liberal parent on the planet. I do totally get where you're coming from. And I was there once. I am just offering my experience.

You make great points - it is surprising sometimes (for me at least) how much WE grow after becoming parents.

I'm relatively rare. Since the birth of our first 11.5 years ago I have been a stay-at-home-dad. I am the primary caretaker. My experience has revealed some interesting (though not universal) differences in parenting styles from moms and dads.

Early on, during visits to playgrounds, it seemed that if a child fell or got a "boo-boo" the moms would often hurry in to see if the child was ok or comfort them. However, the few dads that would be there would observe, holding back, and making sure it wasn't serious. If it wasn't, the dads would watch the kid pick themself up, dust themself off, and move on. Again, this was a general observation and not universal. It actually gave me a (now laughable) sense of gender vanity: "we dads have got it going on! We are teaching our kids to be independent and take care of themselves."

Not so fast.

Because when there was a conflict on the playground I found the moms became the observers. They watched and let it play out, intervening only if it got out of hand. But we guys would often step in immediately, imposing a resolution on the kids. We dads were preventing them from figuring out how to get along by themselves. We might be helping their independence, but dads seem to be inhibiting the skills needed to get along with others. It seemed like moms intrinsically understood that learning how to deal with conflict, and the possibility that the solution might be unfair, was part of growing up.

Once more let me say that it wasn't always the case that gender determined the action, but it was a pattern. And that observation helped me realize that I needed to step back, let the kids figure it out. It might not always end happily for all but the process was more important than the result. It changed the way I parented (it is actually an acronym in our house - whenever my kids have a conflict and complain about it to me my response is almost always "FIO", which they know means "figure it out.")

Your experience with your oldest was something along those lines. And like you, learning to trust my child's experience and believe in its value to their development is one of the best lessons I have had.

 

[Club Disney Chandler]

You make great points - it is surprising sometimes (for me at least) how much WE grow after becoming parents.

I'm relatively rare. Since the birth of our first 11.5 years ago I have been a stay-at-home-dad. I am the primary caretaker. My experience has revealed some interesting (though not universal) differences in parenting styles from moms and dads.

Early on, during visits to playgrounds, it seemed that if a child fell or got a "boo-boo" the moms would often hurry in to see if the child was ok or comfort them. However, the few dads that would be there would observe, holding back, and making sure it wasn't serious. If it wasn't, the dads would watch the kid pick themself up, dust themself off, and move on. Again, this was a general observation and not universal. It actually gave me a (now laughable) sense of gender vanity: "we dads have got it going on! We are teaching our kids to be independent and take care of themselves."

Not so fast.

Because when there was a conflict on the playground I found the moms became the observers. They watched and let it play out, intervening only if it got out of hand. But we guys would often step in immediately, imposing a resolution on the kids. We dads were preventing them from figuring out how to get along by themselves. We might be helping their independence, but dads seem to be inhibiting the skills needed to get along with others. It seemed like moms intrinsically understood that learning how to deal with conflict, and the possibility that the solution might be unfair, was part of growing up.

Once more let me say that it wasn't always the case that gender determined the action, but it was a pattern. And that observation helped me realize that I needed to step back, let the kids figure it out. It might not always end happily for all but the process was more important than the result. It changed the way I parented (it is actually an acronym in our house - whenever my kids have a conflict and complain about it to me my response is almost always "FIO", which they know means "figure it out.")

Your experience with your oldest was something along those lines. And like you, learning to trust my child's experience and believe in its value to their development is one of the best lessons I have had.

I really like the way you think and express yourself. I love that there is no judgement at all in your posts, you rock man!

 

[Ofinn]

I'm sorry to go off-topic, but I totally LOL'd at that. I used to homeschool DD, and man alive - the judgey comments about that (which I won't repeat here) make the disboards judgey comments aimed at parents look incredibly tame.

Yep. Not one person at work knows I homeschool.

You make great points - it is surprising sometimes (for me at least) how much WE grow after becoming parents.

I'm relatively rare. Since the birth of our first 11.5 years ago I have been a stay-at-home-dad. I am the primary caretaker. My experience has revealed some interesting (though not universal) differences in parenting styles from moms and dads.

Early on, during visits to playgrounds, it seemed that if a child fell or got a "boo-boo" the moms would often hurry in to see if the child was ok or comfort them. However, the few dads that would be there would observe, holding back, and making sure it wasn't serious. If it wasn't, the dads would watch the kid pick themself up, dust themself off, and move on. Again, this was a general observation and not universal. It actually gave me a (now laughable) sense of gender vanity: "we dads have got it going on! We are teaching our kids to be independent and take care of themselves."

Not so fast.

Because when there was a conflict on the playground I found the moms became the observers. They watched and let it play out, intervening only if it got out of hand. But we guys would often step in immediately, imposing a resolution on the kids. We dads were preventing them from figuring out how to get along by themselves. We might be helping their independence, but dads seem to be inhibiting the skills needed to get along with others. It seemed like moms intrinsically understood that learning how to deal with conflict, and the possibility that the solution might be unfair, was part of growing up.

Once more let me say that it wasn't always the case that gender determined the action, but it was a pattern. And that observation helped me realize that I needed to step back, let the kids figure it out. It might not always end happily for all but the process was more important than the result. It changed the way I parented (it is actually an acronym in our house - whenever my kids have a conflict and complain about it to me my response is almost always "FIO", which they know means "figure it out.")

Your experience with your oldest was something along those lines. And like you, learning to trust my child's experience and believe in its value to their development is one of the best lessons I have had.

You make me feel better about locking myself in the office and putting on head phones when my kids are arguing. LOL

 

[wombat_5606]

I think a lot of this parenting advice is good, but I just can't see any 3 year old standing up to a 12 year old.

 

[Hundredacre]

Some kids need to be told that they shouldn't let others step on them. Kids will take what they can and if your child just lets people cut in, thinking they are being nice, kids will take advantage of that. Sometimes you have to tell your kid not to let others take advantage.

I think you did the right thing by telling your child they shouldn't let others take things away, rather than have him learn that others just take stuff away and he should just expect it. And that other teacher was not thinking what you think. The teacher was thinking 'I'm glad the mom didn't berate me for not doing my job'. Her job is to teach manners in her classroom, not allow that sort of bullying (yes, it starts there).

As for letting them experience the bad, as well, of course, but you have to be able to follow it with a lesson. The right thing for that teacher to have done would be to call the offending child over to yours and have him/her apologize, then use that as a teaching moment of how to behave. Yes, in the 'real world' that will happen to them. They have time to learn that. It doesn't have to be in preschool.

I agree with you in theory. And two years ago I would have agreed fully. But i am in a time in my life where i find that some theories look good on paper and make a lot of sense, but in practice-- they do not work. It is hard to figure out why sometimes. But after having my millennial go off to college, I have come to the idea that there are things your child can only learn on their own. It is like when you are in a literature class. A good instructor doesn't start the class by telling you the entire meaning of the book. They allow you to arrive at the meaning yourself by asking a series of questions and requiring your own textual analysis. I can give my kids the answers, and on paper the idea of the "teachable moment" is great. But I think it is more meaningful if the kid figures it out themselves. I respect that there are a lot of different approaches to raising kids-- I am just throwing mine out there and saying that having been that helicopter parent (and not realizing it until it was kind of too late), I am now trying a different method on my younger two kids. I think one of the messages in Inside Out (to reference disney/pixar ) is that if you do not allow your children to feel a full range of emotions, if you want them to feel "joy" all the time, they end up miserable and unable to cope. It doesn't make sense on paper, but in practice... something else. So when ds tells me he didn't get to play Disney infinity during his afternoon at the kids club, in my head I am thinking, that's not fair! And part of me wants to complain to the staff that everyone isn't getting a turn. But I stop myself and ask him instead if he has any ideas about how he might get to play next time. It is hard not to give him my ideas. Even if he never gets a turn he will live. Maybe he will figure out how to get a turn next trip. I comfort myself that walt Disney and many other successful people throughout history i admire probably figured things out without helicopter parents. And were better for it!

 

[arlopop]

I really like the way you think and express yourself. I love that there is no judgement at all in your posts, you rock man!

I'm genuinely flattered. Thank you.

 

[mab2012]

I think a lot of this parenting advice is good, but I just can't see any 3 year old standing up to a 12 year old.

I really don't think they need to. The 12 year-olds aren't generally going to be bothered with a 3-year-old stranger, especially when there are other kids around closer to their own ages. There might be the occasional issue with a particularly poorly behaved child (but a narrow age range wouldn't help with that), or a group of older children getting too wound up and rough for the environment. But this isn't Lord of the Flies, and I don't think anyone is suggesting it should be. There are adult supervisors to step in if things get out of hand.

 

[Trera]

While I agree that part of parenting is preparing your kids for a world where people are frequently selfish and discourteous, I respectfully and completely disagree that a vacation is the appropriate time to send your kid to the school of hard knocks. A family vacation should be a fun time to escape from the everyday grind and a time to make fond memories, not to have a 4 year old learn that some people just plain suck.

I agree. I dont want my child having to figure stuff out on vacation any more than I want to have to figure stuff out.

Too many are comparing their kids to other kids, or they are sending multiple kids to the club while others send an only child........................there are too many variables to try to put this in a box and call it right.

We can all have our opinions but we all know how to best raise and develop our own kids. I will never be happy with other kids being rude, bossy or physical with my 3 year old DD but I also know that I will not be there all the time and she will get to experience her feelings then.

 

[Hundredacre]

You make great points - it is surprising sometimes (for me at least) how much WE grow after becoming parents.

I'm relatively rare. Since the birth of our first 11.5 years ago I have been a stay-at-home-dad. I am the primary caretaker. My experience has revealed some interesting (though not universal) differences in parenting styles from moms and dads.

Early on, during visits to playgrounds, it seemed that if a child fell or got a "boo-boo" the moms would often hurry in to see if the child was ok or comfort them. However, the few dads that would be there would observe, holding back, and making sure it wasn't serious. If it wasn't, the dads would watch the kid pick themself up, dust themself off, and move on. Again, this was a general observation and not universal. It actually gave me a (now laughable) sense of gender vanity: "we dads have got it going on! We are teaching our kids to be independent and take care of themselves."

Not so fast.

Because when there was a conflict on the playground I found the moms became the observers. They watched and let it play out, intervening only if it got out of hand. But we guys would often step in immediately, imposing a resolution on the kids. We dads were preventing them from figuring out how to get along by themselves. We might be helping their independence, but dads seem to be inhibiting the skills needed to get along with others. It seemed like moms intrinsically understood that learning how to deal with conflict, and the possibility that the solution might be unfair, was part of growing up.

Once more let me say that it wasn't always the case that gender determined the action, but it was a pattern. And that observation helped me realize that I needed to step back, let the kids figure it out. It might not always end happily for all but the process was more important than the result. It changed the way I parented (it is actually an acronym in our house - whenever my kids have a conflict and complain about it to me my response is almost always "FIO", which they know means "figure it out.")

Your experience with your oldest was something along those lines. And like you, learning to trust my child's experience and believe in its value to their development is one of the best lessons I have had.

Your kids are lucky to have a stay at home dad like yourself. It is really helpful to read about people's similar experiences (and different experiences). I agree with Disney Chandler and really appreciate your posts. I also agree that there are gender differences (in general) in parenting-- and especially with kids and how they negotiate when playing (girls can be something else!). My husband has gotten involved more at the playground. I did not really think about it until reading you post. And if someone gets hurt, I do comfort them, not so much him.

 

[wombat_5606]

I really don't think they need to. The 12 year-olds aren't generally going to be bothered with a 3-year-old stranger, especially when there are other kids around closer to their own ages. There might be the occasional issue with a particularly poorly behaved child (but a narrow age range wouldn't help with that), or a group of older children getting too wound up and rough for the environment. But this isn't Lord of the Flies, and I don't think anyone is suggesting it should be. There are adult supervisors to step in if things get out of hand.

I can see where a younger child could get something taken away from them and if they don't make a huge noise about it, the adult supervisors may or may not even see it happen. Or some activity where the younger child is pushed out of the way and it's not seen by a CM. So the younger child is disappointed, the older child and the aggressor, finds out there is no consequence if there wasn't any adult to see what happened. I seriously doubt the CM's can see everything. I believe I just read it's 1 CM to 15-25 children.

The younger child learns that no one is watching/helping and the older child learns "I can do what I want as long as I make sure the adult doesn't see me". Over time the younger child will learn what to do in that situation, but on a one week cruise, it isn't going to happen with a group of older kids they don't even know. So, usually the younger child is going to lose out. They are probably not going to want to go back and the parent may not even know why, because the child won't complain. Some may but some may not and it's those that don't speak up that get shorted on the fun they could be having if the clubs were split into different age groups.

 

[Hundredacre]

I really don't think they need to. The 12 year-olds aren't generally going to be bothered with a 3-year-old stranger, especially when there are other kids around closer to their own ages. There might be the occasional issue with a particularly poorly behaved child (but a narrow age range wouldn't help with that), or a group of older children getting too wound up and rough for the environment. But this isn't Lord of the Flies, and I don't think anyone is suggesting it should be. There are adult supervisors to step in if things get out of hand.

I agree and have only once seen a child in the clubs that I thought was older than 8 or 9. She was hanging out with a younger sister. Once ours hit 9 or ten he refused to go into the club (even when I tried to get him to go with a younger sibling once). And around 8 he barely wanted to go- just for specific activities.

I can see where a younger child could get something taken away from them and if they don't make a huge noise about it, the adult supervisors may or may not even see it happen. Or some activity where the younger child is pushed out of the way and it's not seen by a CM. So the younger child is disappointed, the older child and the aggressor, finds out there is no consequence if there wasn't any adult to see what happened. I seriously doubt the CM's can see everything. I believe I just read it's 1 CM to 15-25 children.

The younger child learns that no one is watching/helping and the older child learns "I can do what I want as long as I make sure the adult doesn't see me". Over time the younger child will learn what to do in that situation, but on a one week cruise, it isn't going to happen with a group of older kids they don't even know. So, usually the younger child is going to lose out. They are probably not going to want to go back and the parent may not even know why, because the child won't complain. Some may but some may not and it's those that don't speak up that get shorted on the fun they could be having if the clubs were split into different age groups.

A three year old may be more at risk of another three, four, or five year old taking a toy. IMHO

 

[wombat_5606]

A three year old may be more at risk of another three, four, or five year old taking a toy. IMHO

Yes, and then the 3 year old would probably handle it themselves. But, I have personally seen a 9, 10, 11 year old knock a younger kid out of the way, too. No 3 year old is going to resolve that kind of situation on their own.

 

[mab2012]

The younger child learns that no one is watching/helping and the older child learns "I can do what I want as long as I make sure the adult doesn't see me". Over time the younger child will learn what to do in that situation, but on a one week cruise, it isn't going to happen with a group of older kids they don't even know. So, usually the younger child is going to lose out. They are probably not going to want to go back and the parent may not even know why, because the child won't complain. Some may but some may not and it's those that don't speak up that get shorted on the fun they could be having if the clubs were split into different age groups.

Could a much older child take something from a younger child and "get away with it"? Sure. Is it happening rampantly? Doubt it. Generally, what the 3-year-old has is not what the 12-year-old wants; that's the point I was trying to make.

What you're talking about amounts to bullying, and again, I don't think narrow age ranges help a lot with that problem. I also think it's a mistake to assume that older kids are frequently bullying younger kids in the clubs. Most kids are NOT bullies, particularly towards much younger kids, and those who are will cause problems no matter the age range.

Are there really a lot of pre-schoolers who are refusing to go to the clubs specifically because they are intimidated by the presence of older kids? What I'm mostly hearing is pre-emptive parental concern on behalf of their younger children, not so much actual reports of young kids who don't want to go. In fact, in my experience the opposite is much more likely to be true - the 9+ crowd avoid the clubs because the space and activities are mostly (not exclusively) geared towards younger children.

 

[MrsSmalls]

if my 10 or 11 year old knocked a 3 year old out of the way, there'd be some hell to pay. I wouldn't even tolerate that from my 6 year old!

 

[belac]

The best solution is to find a cruise line with a policy that works for you. DCL worked for us because they allow 10 year olds to move up to edge. Now that bothers some people because they think 13 year olds don't like to be around 10 year olds. It worked for us and honestly it's the only reason weve stayed with dcl the last two years. I wont book a cruise if it doesn't fit my families needs. Now I have two cruises booked on other lines that work for us. There is another I would like to try, but doesn't fit our needs at this time.
I really don't think there is much you can do to change a cruise lines policy. They can't make everyone happy so find a cruise line that has kids clubs that your kids will like.

When did this happen? DS would be so happy if he could go to Edge.

As far as the groups go I think I have been lucky. DS school is K-8 in one building. They all eat lunch together and share the playgrounds together Every morning they all have assembly as well. They have school programs that have K with the 8th grade and all in between ages. So DS is comfortable with ages from 5 to 13 (even the pre K). They learn to treat each other well, watch out for the younger ones and generally work together. It isn't perfect, I hear the stories of this one did this or that one got in trouble for pushing a second grader but I see a difference between the children in his school and the children in a larger school district where they are separated by elementary & middle school. Now the program of study and some social events are separate (7 &8 grade dance ect..) but for the most part they respect each other all ages. It is fun to see the older ones help the younger ones even though yesterday they didn't want to play with the them or something.

I have been on the Wonder (Classic and smaller) and saw a little one get knocked down in the club without a second glance from the older kids that knocked him down. I also saw two other older kids help the little one up, call a counselor and rat out the boys that did it. Kids are resilient, they figure it out. I don't mind the age differences, probably because I am used to it but, it allows them to grow, learn and get up again and know that not all older kids are mean.

 

[wombat_5606]

Could a much older child take something from a younger child and "get away with it"? Sure. Is it happening rampantly? Doubt it. Generally, what the 3-year-old has is not what the 12-year-old wants; that's the point I was trying to make.

What you're talking about amounts to bullying, and again, I don't think narrow age ranges help a lot with that problem. I also think it's a mistake to assume that older kids are frequently bullying younger kids in the clubs. Most kids are NOT bullies, particularly towards much younger kids, and those who are will cause problems no matter the age range.

Are there really a lot of pre-schoolers who are refusing to go to the clubs specifically because they are intimidated by the presence of older kids? What I'm mostly hearing is pre-emptive parental concern on behalf of their younger children, not so much actual reports of young kids who don't want to go. In fact, in my experience the opposite is much more likely to be true - the 9+ crowd avoid the clubs because the space and activities are mostly (not exclusively) geared towards younger children.

I don't know how old your kids are, but mine are 32 and 26, so I've seen a lot of interactions. I have a granddaughter now and we took her on a cruise when she was almost 3. The second day we were in Nemo's Reef, some older kids were in there and just mowed her over, pushed her out of the way on the slide, sprayed her straight in the face with the water feature. Well, it was no surprise to me that she wouldn't step foot in the place the rest of the trip.

I don't think this kind of behavior is limited to Nemo's Reef.

You don't know how many times it's happening in the club. Maybe Disney can do a survey of how many young children go in the club and then never return and why. All I'm saying is that I see a lot of misbehavior on the cruise and I think the age range of the club is inappropriate.

What I see is that parents who have kids spanning across many ages is pre-emptive parental concern, to use your words, that they want their siblings to be together to protect each other and to play with each other in case no one will play with them. Their children or the parents have decided this is what makes them happy, rather than having to learn to get along on their own.

if my 10 or 11 year old knocked a 3 year old out of the way, there'd be some hell to pay. I wouldn't even tolerate that from my 6 year old!

Thank you, MrsSmalls, I wish all parents on a Disney cruise felt like you.

 

[Hundredacre]

if my 10 or 11 year old knocked a 3 year old out of the way, there'd be some hell to pay. I wouldn't even tolerate that from my 6 year old!

To me this is so out there. We have had 2 go through this age level and neither would have ever done anything like that. In fact they would have protected a much younger child.