Down Syndrome child, corporal punishment & school.. need input.. long

[Scurvy]

I found an interesting article on CNN regarding corporal punishment in schools.


Corporal punishment in schools remains legal in 21 U.S. states and is used frequently in 13: Missouri, Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and Florida, according to data received from the Office for Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education and cited in the report.

The highest percentage of students receiving corporal punishment was in Mississippi, with 7.5 percent of students. The highest number was in Texas, with 48,197 students.





http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/20/corporal.punishment/

I have worked with schools in Alabama and Tennessee for the last 15 years and in that time I have never known of a child to be spanked in school. It may happen in some areas but it is far from the norm in either state. Just because it is legal in the state does not mean that it is allowed in the individual school districts.

(I realize that this thread has devolved into a fight between those "for" and "against" corporal punishment, but I felt compelled to weigh in.)

 

[Mkaz]

The child and aide enter the principal's office and I hear the principal yelling at another child and then the door shuts and he is spanked.. very loudly three times. I can hear ever y hit.. and was standing prob at least 20 feet away with several people around me talking.

Wait, I'm confused. Were they both spanked?

Nevermind... I'm not going to allow myself to get sucked into this thread. However, I'd like to offer some advice.

I have a SIL with Down Syndrome. My MIL never spanked her or her other children. My MIL had very effective parenting skills. There are a few that dh told me about that actually made me laugh so hard I cried. I won't risk embarassing him, so I will leave it at that.

Back to the topic. I suggest you google Down Syndrome for a clear answer on medical issues of people with Down Syndrome. They can have a whole host of medical issues such as: heart defects, muscle weakness, microcephaly etc. As far as their mental capacity, it varies. Good luck with your search.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Corporal punishment in schools remains legal in 21 U.S. states and is used frequently in 13: Missouri, Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and Florida, according to data received from the Office for Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education and cited in the report.
n addition, special education students with mental or physical disabilities were more likely to receive corporal punishment, according to the ACLU and Human Rights Watch.


wow, such cultural differences in the South as opposed to up here in the North,

I'm not sure if it depends on the district, but I've not heard of any schools here in central Kentucky using corporal punishment. Now, when I was in middle school, years ago (here in Kentucky), I was caught talking in class (I was asking my friend a question about our assignment) and the teacher sent me down to the office to get "paddled". I asked to call my mom (our parents did not have to sign anything) before I got paddled and they let me. My mom got on the phone and threw a fit. I ended up having to write a paragraph about why I shouldn't talk in class instead.

 

[Liberty Belle]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

Sorry, I, for one, can't "trust you," because I do work with children all day long. I suspect I can tell which ones are physically disciplined - they're the ones who are disrespectful and do not respond to other measures of discipline - they just seem not to worry about doing wrong.

All children need discipline - no child needs (or deserves) to be hit, especially by an adult they trust.

 

[Liberty Belle]

Have you even read any of my posts??? I do not like a child having to be spanked!!! It breaks my heart but what breaks my heart even more is a child who is not disciplined at all and left to their own devices,those children trun out to be brats and do not live up ot their potential! I do spank my children from time to time when needed and all else fails and I too get many compliments fom their teachers here at school. Both are very well behaved and in the gifted program here at school. I think it is great that your children are well behaved but some parents choose to discipline different than you and thats okay too. I spank and my children are both very happy,well adjusted children. My 7 yr old DD's gym teacher was just telling me that she has never seen a happier child. I know that there are other forms of discipline and some work very well for some children but again if the parents consented to it it's no one else buisness. I will say this again for the last time, it is used here as a LAST RESORT when the child has not responded to other multiple forms of discipline.

Interesting. Do you think spanking them increased their intelligence?

 

[brockash]

Interesting. Do you think spanking them increased their intelligence?

 

[dimimi]

Well that is a thought... BUT I live very far from town . The closest private school is prob an hour away.
The reason there are no private school's near us is because the school system we live in is the 2nd best in the state.
Home schooling not an option. I really do know my limitations with my son.

BUT .. not the response I need right now : ).

Our school does NOT do corporal punishment....but when they used to...a parent could write a letter stating their child could NOT be punished with corporal punishment. I could not send my child to that school unless I was sure that my child would not be punished in this way and that my child would not have to witness this kind of public humiliation.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Have you even read any of my posts??? I do not like a child having to be spanked!!! It breaks my heart but what breaks my heart even more is a child who is not disciplined at all and left to their own devices,those children trun out to be brats and do not live up ot their potential! I do spank my children from time to time when needed and all else fails and I too get many compliments fom their teachers here at school. Both are very well behaved and in the gifted program here at school. I think it is great that your children are well behaved but some parents choose to discipline different than you and thats okay too. I spank and my children are both very happy,well adjusted children. My 7 yr old DD's gym teacher was just telling me that she has never seen a happier child. I know that there are other forms of discipline and some work very well for some children but again if the parents consented to it it's no one else buisness. I will say this again for the last time, it is used here as a LAST RESORT when the child has not responded to other multiple forms of discipline.

Wow, this post says a lot.

First bolded above: there is a HUGE and COMPLETE difference between physically striking a child and 'no discipline at all'. This whole comment does not even begin to make any sense whatsoever. What is tragic are parents who have no parenting skills and do not effectively discipline, and then, when the children are too far gone, they hit them, and hit them... always with the mantra "but I've tried everything else...". Thus the children are both undisciplined and physically accosted.

Second bolded above: Spanked and gifted in the same thought.
I don't even have words to respond to that.

And, the last comment bolded: To anyone who mentions physically striking a child as a last resort, I find that to be indicative of a parent who simply has NO better parenting skills to have resorted to.

Also, just to mention, children that truly do not respond in reasonable/normal ways to basic discipline and to basic situations, most often are doing this because of some kind of disability/impairment/delay... or simply unrealisticly high expectations by poor parents/teachers. Or, very often, both.

In either case, physical discipline will do absolutely NOTHING to address the real issue.

 

[dimimi]

To the original poster.

I am a special education teacher. I can't imagine a special education teacher taking a child for swats. I would find out who the child it and make sure the parent knows. Any special education teacher who thinks a downs child should be spanked at school...should not be teaching special education and should retake her special education courses. Trust me, in all my teaching experience and education, I also have a degree in behavior disorders...NEVER...is corporal punishment discussed as a form of appropriate disciplien.

Whew...glad to get that off my chest! This is hot topic for me.

Besides public school, I have also been a director at a day care. Believe it or not, we had over 150 kids a day, behaving...and not using corporal punishment.

 

[TomLovesBecky]

So help me God, I would have called the police on the spot and filed a complaint. Even if it never went anywhere, at least I could sleep at night knowing I did what I could to protect that poor kid.

Just love all these "schools treating children like chattel" threads.

I wanted to add that the parents must be real pieces of work if they ALLOWED this. I'm sorry, but if you willingly let someone hit your disabled child, for any reason, then you are a scumbag, in my book. And you should not have power over that helpless, defenseless child!

 

[mark&sue]

I have been really shocked reading this thread as I had no idea that the US allow children to be spanked in schools as it is illegal over here in the UK.

As others have said a child who is spanked will just learn that if you are bigger than someone it is ok to spank them. I am assuming you cannot spank co-workers at work if they do something naughty and adults are not allowed to hit their partners if they do something naughty? I cannot understand how if you think it would be unacceptable for adults to hit each other how can you think it acceptable for adults to hit children.

Flame away.


Susan

 

[themilesfamily]

And so when spanking doesn't improve this child's behavior, what do they do next? Hit the child harder? I mean, once you've hit a child, where do you go from there?

Why is this form of punishment still legal in any school in the United States???

 

[Wishing on a star]

To the original poster.

I am a special education teacher. I can't imagine a special education teacher taking a child for swats. I would find out who the child it and make sure the parent knows. Any special education teacher who thinks a downs child should be spanked at school...should not be teaching special education and should retake her special education courses. Trust me, in all my teaching experience and education, I also have a degree in behavior disorders...NEVER...is corporal punishment discussed as a form of appropriate disciplien.

Whew...glad to get that off my chest! This is hot topic for me.

Besides public school, I have also been a director at a day care. Believe it or not, we had over 150 kids a day, behaving...and not using corporal punishment.

My thoughts EXACTLY!!!!

I would probably feel blessed to have you (or someone like you) as my child's teacher!!!

It is sad to think that there are a good number of teachers/educators/principals (both special ed and otherwise) who do not feel the same way.

 

[NotUrsula]

So help me God, I would have called the police on the spot and filed a complaint. Even if it never went anywhere, at least I could sleep at night knowing I did what I could to protect that poor kid.

Just love all these "schools treating children like chattel" threads.

I wanted to add that the parents must be real pieces of work if they ALLOWED this. I'm sorry, but if you willingly let someone hit your disabled child, for any reason, then you are a scumbag, in my book. And you should not have power over that helpless, defenseless child!

And the dispatcher would have told you what several posters here have pointed out -- as this is a perfectly legal activity there is no grounds for a law enforcement officer to do anything. Having lived in rural Louisiana most of my life, I can tell you that you would also receive a rather sharp reprimand for tying up the line and wasting their time.

The fact is, folks, that you have a better chance of ordering the sun to rise in the west than you would of getting the Louisiana State Legislature to completely outlaw corporal punishment in schools anytime in the near future. It is still there because the majority of voters want it there, and their elected representatives know it. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a parent tell a child in public that "I'm going to whup your a__!" then I would be very rich. The standard when I was a child was that you took three licks at school, your parents were told, and you inevitably got another, more severe spanking as soon as your father got home (and most of the time, if you were school-aged, Dad used a belt, not his hand.) In most of the economically-disadvantaged parts of the Deep South, corporal punishment at home may not be as common as it was 30 years ago, but it's still not rare--not by a long shot.

I wasn't spanked as a child (long story why not), but I can very clearly remember my parents being laughed at for it by every adult they knew who found out about that.

 

[IDoDis]

I didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up. First of all, the aide or whoever escorted the child into the office and left the punishment paper in plain sight has clearly violated FERPA (Family Rights and Privacy Act) and could lose her license should a family member of the child file charges.

Also, it's not uncommon for kids with special needs to be in some kind of foster care. If this is the case with this child, the foster parent may have said it was okay for the punishments. I've dealt with many students over the years who were in foster care, and while some of the foster parents were awesome and went on to adopt the child they fostered, there are others who do foster care just for the money and don't give a hoot about the kids. It's very sad, but true. One time I reported a foster mom's abuse on one of my students and he had to be removed from that home.

I am also surprised that this kind of discipline goes on in your area. It's been banned here for more than 30 years. My heart breaks for that child.

 

[freepixie]

You apparently do not work around children all day long. Trust me you can tell the differnece between a child who is spanked at home and one who is not! The spnaked children behave better! You know what "disgusts" me. A child who is not disciplined at all!!!! That is outrageous!!!!! Trust me In most cases the children whom the principal has to spank see NO form of discipline at home spanking or otherwise!!!

I do work with children all day long - yes you can tell the difference between children who are spanked and those who are not. When a child is having difficulty in their behavior, I get down on their level (sitting or squatting) and talk to them about what is going on. The children who are not spanked stand and listen. The children who ARE spanked cower until they realize I am not going to strike them. That is how I tell the difference.

 

[daisax]

The fact is, folks, that you have a better chance of ordering the sun to rise in the west than you would of getting the Louisiana State Legislature to completely outlaw corporal punishment in schools anytime in the near future. It is still there because the majority of voters want it there, and their elected representatives know it.

Then the matter has to be brought to the forefront over and over and over and over and over and over again until the people still living in the dark ages see the light, and/or the silent majority who never really thought about it too much (maybe because their children were unlikely to "deserve it") consider whether this special needs child could have deserved it, and reconsider their views.

It's not a reason for not trying -- it's the reason people have to speak up over and over again.

 

[Stitchfans]

I don't know what a "corporal punishment letter" is, or what this poor child did to "deserve" to bit hit at school, but if anyone ever put their hands on my child that way there would be hell to pay.

This totally baffles me. I never dreamed that spanking still went on in any schools any more. I also agree with this person if anyone every touches my DD I'll end up behind bars for beating them to a pulp.

 

[MELSMICE]

Then the matter has to be brought to the forefront over and over and over and over and over and over again until the people still living in the dark ages see the light, and/or the silent majority who never really thought about it too much (maybe because their children were unlikely to "deserve it") consider whether this special needs child could have deserved it, and reconsider their views.

It's not a reason for not trying -- it's the reason people have to speak up over and over again.

Agreed!

Also, Stitchfans, I am as baffled as you are that this still goes on in our country.

 

[TomLovesBecky]

And the dispatcher would have told you what several posters here have pointed out -- as this is a perfectly legal activity there is no grounds for a law enforcement officer to do anything. Having lived in rural Louisiana most of my life, I can tell you that you would also receive a rather sharp reprimand for tying up the line and wasting their time.

The fact is, folks, that you have a better chance of ordering the sun to rise in the west than you would of getting the Louisiana State Legislature to completely outlaw corporal punishment in schools anytime in the near future. It is still there because the majority of voters want it there, and their elected representatives know it. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a parent tell a child in public that "I'm going to whup your a__!" then I would be very rich. The standard when I was a child was that you took three licks at school, your parents were told, and you inevitably got another, more severe spanking as soon as your father got home (and most of the time, if you were school-aged, Dad used a belt, not his hand.) In most of the economically-disadvantaged parts of the Deep South, corporal punishment at home may not be as common as it was 30 years ago, but it's still not rare--not by a long shot.

I wasn't spanked as a child (long story why not), but I can very clearly remember my parents being laughed at for it by every adult they knew who found out about that.

So? I'd still call. I even said in my post that nothing would come of it. But I'm going to report the abuse of a disabled child, whether anyone listens or not.