Dog and Cat Fur. An appalling trade!

[Galahad]

Deb, I don't know if you are of Chinese decent or you just have adopted your child from that country or whatever your situation is. But to accuse me of being venomous and sino-phobic because I find these particular animal abuse practices abhorant is PRETTY OVER THE TOP! Being cruel, skinning animals alive is not a genetic trait but a learned, cultural behavior. One can have control over that. Just because you have a "connection" with China, does that make them above criticism in your book? Maybe you need to "get over it" and remove those rose colored glasses. Edited to add; I am not the only poster in this thread that is repulsed by this practice, in case you haven't noticed.

I suggest you rethink this position.

 

[DawnCt1]

I suggest you rethink this position.

And what position is that? She has accused me of this in the past and seems to take it to a very personal level. I am just responding in kind.

 

[Laura]

Deb, I don't know if you are of Chinese decent or you just have adopted your child from that country or whatever your situation is. But to accuse me of being venomous and sino-phobic because I find these particular animal abuse practices abhorant is PRETTY OVER THE TOP! Being cruel, skinning animals alive is not a genetic trait but a learned, cultural behavior. One can have control over that. Just because you have a "connection" with China, does that make them above criticism in your book? Maybe you need to "get over it" and remove those rose colored glasses. Edited to add; I am not the only poster in this thread that is repulsed by this practice, in case you haven't noticed.

I think it was the comment below, as well as other posts on the DIS, that led Deb (who is of Chinese descent) to call you Sino-phobic:

I don't care about the "sensibilities" of the Chinese and that this may be "culturally" acceptable to them. It isn't culturally acceptable to the most of the Western World, particularly if they knew the details of the fur warming their cheeks. Does that make our culture "better" than theirs and their culture "worse" than ours? In this case, you betcha!

As I've stated before on this thread, the practices of the Chinese in this regard are abhorrent to me. But I'm not saying America's culture is better than China's because of it. We do bad things to animals here, too.

 

[Galahad]

And what position is that? She has accused me of this in the past and seems to take it to a very personal level. I am just responding in kind.

You're right. I think it's personal.

What next? Perhaps a "you people..." might suffice.

This practice is appalling. It's appalling to most everybody regardless of where they are from. It is not intrinsic to anywhere. That it is illegal here does not make us superior for there are appalling things that are legal here and illegal elsewhere. Whatever your particular "situation" might be.

 

[Galahad]

I think it was the comment below, as well as other posts on the DIS, that led Deb (who is of Chinese descent) to call you Sino-phobic:

Actually, the "descent" does not actually descend very far. Racism becomes personal. There is no way to avoid it.

 

[DawnCt1]

I think it was the comment below, as well as other posts on the DIS, that led Deb (who is of Chinese descent) to call you Sino-phobic:

As I've stated before on this thread, the practices of the Chinese in this regard are abhorrent to me. But I'm not saying America's culture is better than China's because of it. We do bad things to animals here, too.

Let me see, we can say that "the practices of the Chinese in this regard are abhorrent" but that it is a "cultural issue" as a previous poster has stated, so we have to accept the practice because its "cultural". I don't think any of the practices with regard to animal treatment that is pursued legally in this country, approaches the kind of cruelty shown on the links provided, and which is culturally and legally acceptable. In fact, perpetrators have served time in jail for less. So yes, when it comes to the issue of animal cruelty, the USA, as a culture, does better than China by far.

 

[Laura]

Actually, the "descent" does not actually descend very far. Racism becomes personal. There is no way to avoid it.

Exactly. I don't know Deb's precise ancestry and the path she has taken to the USA, but I do know how immigrants or children of immigrants to this country (especially from the Third World) are treated by supposedly "superior" Americans. My SIL is Indian, her parents having come to this country when she was a toddler. India's heritage and history is full of many things that I respect, and at the same time full of many things that I despise. I can't imagine deeming India's culture as a whole "worse" than America's because of some heinous practices that go on over there.

 

[DawnCt1]

You're right. I think it's personal.

What next? Perhaps a "you people..." might suffice.

This practice is appalling. It's appalling to most everybody regardless of where they are from. It is not intrinsic to anywhere. That it is illegal here does not make us superior for there are appalling things that are legal here and illegal elsewhere. Whatever your particular "situation" might be.

Deb has chosen to make it personal. I believe the discussion centered around China's dog and cat fur trade. I don't recall using the word "you people", nor were my comments directly to any individual, until I was accused of being venomous. To say that it is appalling to "most everybody" regardless of where they are from is not exactly true. It is not appalling to the people who engage in the dog and cat fur trade throughout China and the Phillappines, nor is it appalling to their governments who encourage the trade.

 

[Laura]

Let me see, we can say that "the practices of the Chinese in this regard are abhorrent" but that it is a "cultural issue" as a previous poster has stated, so we have to accept the practice because its "cultural". I don't think any of the practices with regard to animal treatment that is pursued legally in this country, approaches the kind of cruelty shown on the links provided, and which is culturally and legally acceptable. In fact, perpetrators have served time in jail for less. So yes, when it comes to the issue of animal cruelty, the USA, as a culture, does better than China by far.

As usual, you are missing the point. No one has said that anything the Chinese do has to be accepted by us. But we can't just dismiss the animal cruelty as backward if we want to stamp it out. We have to look at ways of convincing people that the need to slaughter dogs and cats or to siphon the bile from bears' gall bladders is not necessary in this day and age. If I were to tell you that vegetarians and vegans are superior to omnivores because we don't eat animals, would that spur you to stop buying meat?

There is a big difference between saying, "I don't care about the 'sensibilities' of the Chinese and that this may be 'culturally' acceptable to them" and asking how can we work within the culture to effect change?

 

[Galahad]

Deb has chosen to make it personal. I believe the discussion centered around China's dog and cat fur trade. I don't recall using the word "you people", nor were my comments directly to any individual, until I was accused of being venomous. To say that it is appalling to "most everybody" regardless of where they are from is not exactly true. It is not appalling to the people who engage in the dog and cat fur trade throughout China and the Phillappines, nor is it appalling to their governments who encourage the trade.

Everything can be personal. If someone made a sweeping statement about the competence of military physicians, I wager you'd take it personally eventually. Even if someone made a sweeping statement about folks who take your political position you often (we all do) respond to is as if it were a personal statement. It is human nature. Now do that on the subject of race or gender or nationality and it is completely irrational to expect people NOT to respond to it as if it were personal. The subject makes it personal.

 

[DawnCt1]

Now do that on the subject of race or gender or nationality and it is completely irrational to expect people NOT to respond to it as if it were personal. The subject makes it personal.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think its irrational to react as if one has been personally attacked when any particular country's practices are criticized.
Most Americans' have a "secondary "nationality", we are a young country. That shouldn't limit the discussion. If that were the case, no one in our family could tolerate a discussion on France, England, Holland, Sweden, Italy or Ireland.

 

[happybratpack]

Deb, I don't know if you are of Chinese decent or you just have adopted your child from that country or whatever your situation is. But to accuse me of being venomous and sino-phobic because I find these particular animal abuse practices abhorant is PRETTY OVER THE TOP! Being cruel, skinning animals alive is not a genetic trait but a learned, cultural behavior. One can have control over that. Just because you have a "connection" with China, does that make them above criticism in your book? Maybe you need to "get over it" and remove those rose colored glasses. Edited to add; I am not the only poster in this thread that is repulsed by this practice, in case you haven't noticed.

I have been following this thread and haven't commented because it just really really upsets me. I can't speak for Deb, but from my own point of view. I am "just" adopting a child from China BUT this does NOT make China above any kind of criticism from me. This is a horrible, horrible practice IMO; it sickens me.

That said, I followed the Hong Kong Disneyland thread a while back and re DawnCt1, I have to say that I was struck by what seems to be the hatred of anything China related and the Chinese community in general. I enjoy these boards and I can say that this is one of the few times I have been very uncomfortable about a posters particular views. Sure, I'm jaded because of Lily, but I'm not a fan of prejudice no matter the reason. China has millions of people and I would bet that some of those many people are just as sickened and offended by the animal practices are we are.

 

[DawnCt1]

As usual, you are missing the point. No one has said that anything the Chinese do has to be accepted by us. But we can't just dismiss the animal cruelty as backward if we want to stamp it out. We have to look at ways of convincing people that the need to slaughter dogs and cats or to siphon the bile from bears' gall bladders is not necessary in this day and age. If I were to tell you that vegetarians and vegans are superior to omnivores because we don't eat animals, would that spur you to stop buying meat?

There is a big difference between saying, "I don't care about the 'sensibilities' of the Chinese and that this may be 'culturally' acceptable to them" and asking how can we work within the culture to effect change?

The way to "influence" the culture with regard to this issue is not to buy dog and cat fur. There is no possible way to "work with the culture" because, despite some of its reforms, China is still a closed society with a repressive government.

 

[DawnCt1]

That said, I followed the Hong Kong Disneyland thread a while back and re DawnCt1, I have to say that I was struck by what seems to be the hatred of anything China related and the Chinese community in general. I enjoy these boards and I can say that this is one of the few times I have been very uncomfortable about a posters particular views. Sure, I'm jaded because of Lily, but I'm not a fan of prejudice no matter the reason. China has millions of people and I would bet that some of those many people are just as sickened and offended by the animal practices are we are.

Again, to assume that criticism is "hatred" is clearly a misinterpretation on your part. I did not start the thread on Hong Kong Disneyland, nor did I write the article that highlighted the cultural differences that western visitors may find distasteful, I merely commented on them. Somehow, that translates to hatred to you. China may have some people who are sickened and offended by the animal practices, but the practice remains pervasive and is sanctioned by the predominent culture and the trade is encouraged by the government.
It astounds me how criticism of a cultural practice translates into "racism and prejudice". I am very happy that you have adopted a child from China. She will have a much better life as an American citizen then she would have ever had in China. Its a blessing for both of you.

 

[DawnCt1]

So the solution is what? Buying products made in the USA with synthetics?

The manufacturing of sythetics creates huge amounts of polution and waste products. Guess who suffers the most from those...

Wildlife (Animals).



.

Many of the clothes hanging in your closet have a percentage of synthetic fiber.
So are you trying to say that the faux fur collar on my jacket, or the stuffed animals that you buy at WDW causes more animal suffering than being skinned alive? I don't think so. I will sacrifice a few "Polyesters" any day?

 

[Laura]

The way to "influence" the culture with regard to this issue is not to buy dog and cat fur. There is no possible way to "work with the culture" because, despite some of its reforms, China is still a closed society with a repressive government.

In the case of the dog and cat fur, I do think the best thing to do is to not buy the fur in the first place. In the case of bear farming, one does have to work within the culture, as Pea-n-Me has stated.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

The reality is that people can be concerned without having the same concerns as you.

Of course I realize this, Mike (and your point about synthetics and the environment is well taken). In posting the links I posted I hoped to enlighten some who may not be aware of these extraordinary abuses that occur to many animals in our world today. People can then make up their own minds how they feel about it and what they want to do about it, if anything.

For the record, my concerns do not lie with Aunt Bessie's cow, Bambi shot in the woods, or even Colonel Sanders' chickens. Here in the US we have agencies that regulate the treatment of animals. I am talking about dogs tortured and skinned while still alive; cats plunged into boiling water; dogs and cats piled into sacs, dropped to the ground and stabbed and beaten by people who are laughing (no melodrama there, see CNN article in my first post); bears forced to live long lives of agony in order to extract their bile; animals forced to live in extremely cruel conditions - stories I have been following for the better part of 30 years.

If you don't care to read the stories or agree with the sentiment, then so be it. If you do, then great. I believe there have been gains in better treatment of animals worldwide made by legitimate agencies like World Society for the Protection of Animals so if people do want to help I think that's a great place to start.

This is my last post on this thread since I've said everything I wanted to say and think I've made the point I was trying to make, although I reserve the option of butting in again if need be. Good night, everyone.

 

[cardaway]

Many of the clothes hanging in your closet have a percentage of synthetic fiber.
So are you trying to say that the faux fur collar on my jacket, or the stuffed animals that you buy at WDW causes more animal suffering than being skinned alive? I don't think so. I will sacrifice a few "Polyesters" any day?

More suffering short term, obviously not. More animals affected long term, most certainly.

Nevermind though, your last couple posts made it clear this is more about your problems with Chineese people and I have no interest in being part of your race issues.

 

[cardaway]

If you don't care to read the stories or agree with the sentiment, then so be it.

Who said I didn't read or watch the videos? I most certainly did. Doesn't mean I'm going to change my mind. For every case in China there is another one just as bad right here at home. It's all about what you focus on.

 

[Deb in IA]

Galahad, Laura, happybratpack, and even cardaway have already very eloquently expressed my sentiments on the OP's continued denigration of Chinese society.

That she continues to pick out an isolated, limited practice to stereotype an entire nationality and culture with her myopic views.

That she refuses to accept diversity.

That her insistence on her own cultural superiority borders on fanaticism.

That she is totally incapable of any reflection, introspection, or even sensitivity.

That her continued attacks on Chinese culture on the basis of the actions of a few are indeed Sino-phobic, bigoted, and racist.



Since the OP continues to miss the point, I will try to state my points very simply.
1. Not everyone in China engages in this practice.
2. It is actually illegal in China.
3. Animal cruelty is NOT unique to China, and occurs daily right here in the USA
4. There are plenty of things in the American culture that China feels is equally, or more abhorrent, including our rates of homicide, drug abuse, domestic abuse, child abuse, and obesity, which are all much, much greater than in China.

For the record, I don’t wear fur, and we have a dog and 2 rescue cats.