Does your religion....

[daisax]

I forget--who's stuck in Purgatory?

Everybody, but see the very thoughtful explanation upthread about how it's not really a physical place in time.

 

[Barbossa]

They do not always reference the word but the concept. They have a prayer for all who have died that they may enter into Heaven. Prayers for the faithful departed. They don't need our prayers if they are already in Heaven.

Thanks for the clarification. One thing I noticed about the Catholic church (and other Christian faiths, I'm sure) is that they don't assume that anyone will make it to heaven (unless they're canonized), even the most pious. When I hear this at a Catholic funeral mass I often think "Of course he/she made it, what are you talking about?".

 

[jimmiej]

jimmiej:

Sorry, double post, and you might respond as I'm typing this - but hopefully you will see this too.

I think my response is based upon the parable of the Prodigal Son.

Although some Christians speak about an assurance of salvation - once you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you know that heaven will be your destination. I won't debate that at the moment, as there is some disagreement on the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved - and I'm not quite sure, despite studying it for a number of years, where my opinion falls on that subject. I don't think that the doctrine has been proven or disproven conclusively.

Regardless of any assurance of salvation - even if I did believe that I was saved beyond ANY doubt whatsoever - I need to be mindful about how I meet God. Do I walk up to God and the gates of heaven with my head held high and say, "Hi, I'm home!" - or, more like the Prodigal Son, do I come home, virtually upon my knees, hoping that my Father will take me in anyway.

Sure, the Parable indicates that the father is overjoyed at the return of the Son - but I think we need to be mindful of the son's demeanour - and approach our home in a repentant manner, with the understanding (like the Prodigal Son had) that there was no reason why the Father HAD to let him come home.

I hope that makes some sense.

I do have complete, 100% assurance in my salvation. Here's why: It's based not on my goodness (or lack thereof), but instead on what Jesus has already done. I believe & accept that, so my future is secure.

I know some question "once saved, always saved", but imo, there's no basis for it.

The Bible says for believers "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Have you heard the song "I Can Only Imagine"? When I see my Lord, will I dance, bow down, stand in awe? Who knows? I do know this. When I see Jesus face to face, I want Him to say to me, "Well done, good & faithful servant!"

 

[daisax]

One thing I noticed about the Catholic church (and other Christian faiths, I'm sure) is that they don't assume that anyone will make it to heaven (unless they're canonized), even the most pious.

That's my belief, but I think there are a lot of Christians who are firmly convinced that they're going, and other people aren't

I do have complete, 100% assurance in my salvation. Here's why: It's based not on my goodness (or lack thereof), but instead on what Jesus has already done. I believe & accept that, so my future is secure.

And that works within your belief system, but other people believe differently.

 

[Robinrs]

Purgatory is not mentioned in the bible.. at least not in my bible. I'm sure someone will have one that does...

 

[daisax]

The concept that everything has to be in the Bible is a Protestant concept. Jews and Catholics believe that traditional teachings are equally valid.

 

[jimmiej]

And that works within your belief system, but other people believe differently.

Actually, it works Biblically. You can look it up!

 

[daisax]

Actually, it works Biblically. You can look it up!

I understand that you believe you have The Answer. Other people see it differently. There are many of us here who don't take the Bible literally and do not interpret the verses you present as proof of what you're saying. We're not telling you not to believe it, simply pointing out that (to paraphrase Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride) "You keep using that verse. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[Barbossa]

I understand that you believe you have The Answer. Other people see it differently. There are many of us here who don't take the Bible literally and do not interpret the verses you present as proof of what you're saying. We're not telling you not to believe it, simply pointing out that (to paraphrase Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride) "You keep using that verse. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[jimmiej]

I understand that you believe you have The Answer. Other people see it differently. There are many of us here who don't take the Bible literally and do not interpret the verses you present as proof of what you're saying. We're not telling you not to believe it, simply pointing out that (to paraphrase Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride) "You keep using that verse. I do not think it means what you think it means."

I understand that. But hey, what else could this mean?

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

There are plenty more to back that up, but I'll spare you.

I'd love to hear from someone (Christian) who believes salvation is attained some other way other than faith in Christ.

 

[Laura]

I understand that. But hey, what else could this mean?

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

There are plenty more to back that up, but I'll spare you.

I'd love to hear from someone (Christian) who believes salvation is attained some other way other than faith in Christ.

The Catholic idea is that it is not through faith alone. You do need faith for salvation, but that faith is dead if you do not do good things. If you just do good things and don't have faith, that's not enough either. You should have both.

 

[Robinrs]

I understand that. But hey, what else could this mean?

Ephesians 2:8-9

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

There are plenty more to back that up, but I'll spare you.

I'd love to hear from someone (Christian) who believes salvation is attained some other way other than faith in Christ.

You won't hear it from me!

 

[Barbossa]

I'd love to hear from someone (Christian) who believes salvation is attained some other way other than faith in Christ.

Over here with my hand raised. I'm Catholic, but I don't believe for a second that you have to be Christian to make it to Heaven.

 

[rayelias]

Over here with my hand raised. I'm Catholic, but I don't believe for a second that you have to be Christian to make it to Heaven.

With all due respect, and I'm not trying to flame you or insight an argument, but if you believe that non-Christians can go to heaven, then you're not Catholic.

Catholicism teaches that you must be a Christian (some might say a specific TYPE of Christian) to go to heaven.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that you can't be a Catholic and believe that non-Christians can go to heaven.

 

[esdras]

With all due respect, and I'm not trying to flame you or insight an argument, but if you believe that non-Christians can go to heaven, then you're not Catholic.

Catholicism teaches that you must be a Christian (some might say a specific TYPE of Christian) to go to heaven.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that you can't be a Catholic and believe that non-Christians can go to heaven.

Sorry, that isn't necessarily accurate - although the Catholics who think along that line are often labeled as radicals.

Read the work of theologian Karl Rahner and his concept of "Anonymous Christians" - who are not outwardly Christian, they could even be of any faith or no faith, but in some manner have the presence of God's grace upon or within them. It actually has some historical connection to some of the writings of Justin Martyr.

Now, by the same token, there are Catholics who still go by "There is no salvation outside the Church" and by that they mean the CATHOLIC Church - as far as they're concerned other Christians - be they Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran - whatever - are in a whole lot of trouble with the Almighty.

And the range between these two perspectives is also huge.

Personally, I don't pretend to speak for God.

The book of Jonah teaches that God will have mercy upon whom He chooses to have mercy.

While Christianity teaches that salvation is through Christ - does this mean that we can state - with certainty - that God WILL NOT offer salvation to a person who kneels before Him upon their death, and in their moment of judgment with full realization of their failings, accept responsibility and beg for God's mercy and confess Jesus as Lord? Does God, at that moment, reach out to embrace them, or say - "Sorry, too late".

I don't know the answer to that - but I know which one I hope is true.

This is - of course - my own personal opinion, but I don't think anyone should claim to know - with certainty - what God does at those moments.

 

[Barbossa]

With all due respect, and I'm not trying to flame you or insight an argument, but if you believe that non-Christians can go to heaven, then you're not Catholic.

Catholicism teaches that you must be a Christian (some might say a specific TYPE of Christian) to go to heaven.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that you can't be a Catholic and believe that non-Christians can go to heaven.

Yo, don't you dare question my qualifications for any particular religion! Show me one person who follows every doctrine of Catholicism and I'll show you Pope Benedict XVI. I am a Catholic and I participate in my local Catholic community. Views like mine have been openly discussed, often with our priests, who surely are more qualified to determine who is Catholic than you.

 

[jimmiej]

The Catholic idea is that it is not through faith alone. You do need faith for salvation, but that faith is dead if you do not do good things. If you just do good things and don't have faith, that's not enough either. You should have both.

Ah, the book of James! While I agree for the most part, we (Southern Baptists) believe salvation is by faith alone. As proof, I submit the episode of the thief on the cross. The only thing he did was believe Jesus was the Messiah.

However, if you claim to believe, but show no evidence of a Christ-like life, you should seriously examine your life. "You know a tree by it's fruit".

 

[jimmiej]

The book of Jonah teaches that God will have mercy upon whom He chooses to have mercy.

While Christianity teaches that salvation is through Christ - does this mean that we can state - with certainty - that God WILL NOT offer salvation to a person who kneels before Him upon their death, and in their moment of judgment with full realization of their failings, accept responsibility and beg for God's mercy and confess Jesus as Lord? Does God, at that moment, reach out to embrace them, or say - "Sorry, too late".

I don't know the answer to that - but I know which one I hope is true.

This is - of course - my own personal opinion, but I don't think anyone should claim to know - with certainty - what God does at those moments.

I submit the story told by Jesus about the rich man & Lazarus. This story seems to indicate there is no chance for redemption after death.

 

[Laura]

Ah, the book of James! While I agree for the most part, we (Southern Baptists) believe salvation is by faith alone. As proof, I submit the episode of the thief on the cross. The only thing he did was believe Jesus was the Messiah.

However, if you claim to believe, but show no evidence of a Christ-like life, you should seriously examine your life. "You know a tree by it's fruit".

I don't know about the criminals. In Matthew and Mark they insult Jesus, and in John they aren't credited with saying anything at all.

But if it were that easy, why does Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Plenty of rich people have faith.

I think it makes sense that one's faith would lead one to try to do good.

 

[jimmiej]

Over here with my hand raised. I'm Catholic, but I don't believe for a second that you have to be Christian to make it to Heaven.

Can you expound on that thought? By what other means can a person be made righteous before God?