Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[Sandisw]

What I’m saying is that there is no consideration on their part for the owners, on whom they rely for their business model. They didn’t ask owners to contact them regarding the possibility of rescheduling the renters. They demanded a full refund from the owner. dvcreservations.com suffers very little compared to what they just did to their owners. So, while their agreement states no refunds unless the owner is negligent, their response is much different.

I don’t have a reservation thru dvcreservations.com (PP had indicated the email was from David’s) that is affected by this, but if I did, those points that I rented out 11 months ago at a premium price are now worth less on the rental market, if I can rent them out at all. Some owners don’t even have the money in reserve to handle the refund. They spent it on their own vacations for which they have been offered “vouchers” for future travel rather than refunds, or they repaired the transmission on their car, or maybe they just paid their MFs. At a time when people are worried about whether there will be another paycheck, they’re being told to give back money they may not be able to afford to give up.

IMO, dvcreservations has chosen to appease the renters while throwing their owners under the bus. That’s not a good idea for a company that relies on owners offering their points for rent. Why settle for $14.50/pt from dvcreservations when they offered no protections to the owners in this case? Owners might as well rent the points out themselves at $19/pt . At least they can communicate directly with their renters, and maybe come to an agreement that satisfies both parties. I’m not saying that the owner should keep the money AND the points, but there should be some compromise that doesn’t leave the owner bearing the full weight of the problem.

Okay. I see you points now!

 

[CraigInPA]

Yes, The contract was to provide a room at a resort for a specific date, If the owner can’t deliver that...and they can’t,,,because the resort is closed,..then the renter isn’t getting what they paid for,

I am not an attorney, of course, but common understandings from working years ago in a law firm and a general knowledge of contracts and my own life experiences,

Of course, an owner could offer a renter the option to rebook and if the renter wants that option, that could work too,

The hard part in all of this for the renter, however, is getting the owner to do it. But, I am going to assume most owners understand this and will be either rebooking or refunding.

No, you definitely are not an attorney.

The contract with the owner is to provide a reservation to a third party, who is not a signatory to the agreement, with the broker. The owner has no legal obligation to the renter. Depending upon how the agreement with the owner was written determines what happens in a force majeure event such as this.

If the agreement does not include a force majeure clause, and the agreement says no refunds, then the broker should expect no refund from the owner.

Now, to the renter's agreement with the broker... if it says no refunds under any circumstances, the renter gets nothing in this situation. If it says the room will be made available, and there is no force majeure clause. then the broker is on the hook for providing accommodations, give a refund, or face fraud charges.

It is my understanding that David's has stepped up and is asking the owners to rebook if possible, recognizing that they are unlikely to get refunds from the owners, want to do right by their renters, and this situation was completely unforeseen by everyone involved. I applaud David's for taking this approach.

 

[Sandisw]

Here is the language of my owner contract with David’s, It says I am required to pay restitution related to the cancellation caused by or relating to the failure of me, as DVC owner to honor reservation. It makes no mention as to why I can’t deliver.

I read this to mean that in my contract, I owe David’s if I can’t deliver the reservation. If the resort is closed, I can’t and I owe either the money back or the points.

So, you are right, I don't owe the renter, but I DO owe David’s.

 

[Van Houten]

Here is the language of my owner contract with David’s, It says I am required to pay restitution related to the cancellation caused by or relating to the failure of me, as DVC owner to honor reservation. It makes no mention as to why I can’t deliver.

I read this to mean that in my contract, I owe David’s if I can’t deliver the reservation. If the resort is closed, I can’t and I owe either the money back or the points.

So, you are right, I don't owe the renter, but I DO owe David’s.

View attachment 481554

And the renter's agreement has the following language:

Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid

 

[starry_solo]

I’m sure David’s contract will be rewritten soon....

 

[Sandisw]

And the renter's agreement has the following language:

I know what the renter's agreement said, but the one I signed is between me and David's. So, I am bound to the terms of my contract. It really doesn't matter what the renter's contract says because that is between them and David's, not me.

So, I stand by my interpretation that my contract with him, as an owner renting a reservation, explicitly says if I can't deliver the reservation...and my contract gives no qualifying reasons..I can be held accountable to provide him with restitution.

My mistake has been discussing my obligations to the renter, and that was what I was wrong about and was corrected. Once I looked at my contract, and saw that the owner contract does not include the reasons, it supports my argument that if an owner can't deliver the room, they owe David's either the points to re-rent, or the money.

Now, people that have private contracts with renters could be an entire other situation.

 

[sndral]

I know what the renter's agreement said, but the one I signed is between me and David's. So, I am bound to the terms of my contract. It really doesn't matter what the renter's contract says because that is between them and David's, not me.

So, I stand by my interpretation that my contract with him, as an owner renting a reservation, explicitly says if I can't deliver the reservation...and my contract gives no qualifying reasons..I can be held accountable to provide him with restitution.

My mistake has been discussing my obligations to the renter, and that was what I was wrong about and was corrected. Once I looked at my contract, and saw that the owner contract does not include the reasons, it supports my argument that if an owner can't deliver the room, they owe David's either the points to re-rent, or the money.

Now, people that have private contracts with renters could be an entire other situation.

Here is the language of my owner contract with David’s, It says I am required to pay restitution related to the cancellation caused by or relating to the failure of me, as DVC owner to honor reservation. It makes no mention as to why I can’t deliver.

I read this to mean that in my contract, I owe David’s if I can’t deliver the reservation. If the resort is closed, I can’t and I owe either the money back or the points.

So, you are right, I don't owe the renter, but I DO owe David’s.

View attachment 481554

Contracts 101, every phrase in a contract matters. The phrase “[c]aused by or relating to the failure of the DVC owner....” limits the DVC owner’s liability to actions they took which caused the reservation to be canceled.
Because the DVC owner did nothing to cause the reservation to be canceled this clause simply does not apply in the current situation and it does not make the owner responsible if a third party, in this case DVC, cancels the reservation.
Other provisions in the contract may address force majeure type scenarios, but this clause on it’s face limits its’ applicability to cases where the owner caused the cancellation.

 

[MICKIMINI]

Most

The big problem is that Disney closing the resorts is just not something that was ever envisaged and that the legal agreements simply do not contemplate. And the tricky question is what should happen in this situation:

1. Renter pays (say) $2000 to rent points from an owner, chooses not to buy insurance, and agrees that the payment is non-refundable;
2. Owner makes reservation for renter using soon-to-expire banked points;
3. Disney closes the resorts;
4. Owner gets the points back but they are non-bankable and there is no possibility for him to use those points or rent them out again.

The possible responses would seem to be:

1. Owner says too bad, offers no refund, and suffers no loss, leaving the renter to suffer a loss of $2000.
2. Owner refunds the renter in full. Now the renter is made whole and suffers no loss, but the owner, who cannot use the points, now loses the full $2000.
3. (and this is the one that kind of makes the most sense to me in this situation) They split the difference, share the pain, by having the owner refund the renter $1000.

A horrible and tricky situation all around!

I'm guessing this is an oversight, but...are you suggesting the broker keep their commission and not suffer along with the owner and renter?

I have one out for October and one for January (nothing during this crisis) and those may very well be the last. We'll live it up in big villas from now on or stay longer...go more often. I can handle my own financial security and keep DVC but, not to be mean, I don't have the stomach to worry about renters and brokers who wanted MY points but now want to break the terms of the contracts THEY initiated and want MY money back even though I fulfilled the contract...renters -you'll have to find another option to save money at Disney as I'm likely out. Be well.

 

[Cyberc1978]

On davids frontpage there is a lot of info for owners and renters, but there is also a link (Covid-19) on the frontpage. Part highlighted is done by me. Seems that Davids believes that their contract and terms are non refundable.


David’s Vacation Club Rentals would like to assure you that in times of uncertainty surrounding travel, your safety and well being remain an important part of our thoughts.

We understand that you may be experiencing stress given the rapidly changing information on travel restrictions and cancelled or postponed public events. We want you to know that we are monitoring the coronavirus (COVID-19) situation closely, keeping those who are affected in our hearts, and are listening carefully to the questions and concerns we receive from guests and owners.

The Disney Vacation Club has been working with owners on a one to one instance regarding reservations, however, current wait times on the telephone to speak with a cast member can exceed 4 hours.

Although our NO CANCELLATION contract is clear in every detail, we are willing to work with each and every guest who wishes not to travel. We promise to listen to your concerns and work with each contract to attempt to make changes that are acceptable to the both parties involved, the guest and the owner. While we can not guarantee a change to the agreement, this might involve a date change or the re-rental of the points to another guest therefore providing you with compensation. The success rate will be highly dependent on the owner’s willingness to change the agreement and the status of the points they have used to create the reservation contracted. We ask that you be patient as it may take owners several days to reach a Disney Vacation Club Cast Member.

Although our phone lines have become extremely busy and our in box full, know that you will be attended to in due time. Do not hesitate to reach out to us as we work through this unexpected situation. You can reach us via email at team@dvcrequest.com. Please understand that the normal response time you are used to may be lengthened greatly.

Thank you for your support and your loyalty. We will keep you updated through this dynamic situation as events change.

 

[cvjw]

I am also done renting points thru David’s when they didn’t want to pay me for the renters who checked in on the 15th. Renters could have requested a change, but did not. You don’t get to have my points and not pay me. A real eye opener, for sure.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I am also done renting points thru David’s when they didn’t want to pay me for the renters who checked in on the 15th. Renters could have requested a change, but did not. You don’t get to have my points and not pay me. A real eye opener, for sure.

WHAT

So David’s rented your points and paid you like 70% then come checkin day and renters checked in and then they didn’t want to pay up the rest? Do you know why?

 

[starry_solo]

WHAT

So David’s rented your points and paid you like 70% then come checkin day and renters checked in and then they didn’t want to pay up the rest? Do you know why?

Maybe the rest of the resort stay is cancelled?

 

[MICKIMINI]

I am also done renting points thru David’s when they didn’t want to pay me for the renters who checked in on the 15th. Renters could have requested a change, but did not. You don’t get to have my points and not pay me. A real eye opener, for sure.

That "little voice" that pipes up when you sign a contract like that is now screaming instead of whispering. Wow, that is frightening. You can't have it both ways - good thing you spoke up and got what you agreed to!

 

[CraigInPA]

Maybe the rest of the resort stay is cancelled?

That is immaterial to the contract the owner signed with David's. They must pay for the entire reservation, since it was not cancelled by the owner, nor apparently requested to be cancelled by David's.

 

[Amymouse13]

The big problem is that Disney closing the resorts is just not something that was ever envisaged and that the legal agreements simply do not contemplate. And the tricky question is what should happen in this situation:

1. Renter pays (say) $2000 to rent points from an owner, chooses not to buy insurance, and agrees that the payment is non-refundable;
2. Owner makes reservation for renter using soon-to-expire banked points;
3. Disney closes the resorts;
4. Owner gets the points back but they are non-bankable and there is no possibility for him to use those points or rent them out again.

The possible responses would seem to be:

1. Owner says too bad, offers no refund, and suffers no loss, leaving the renter to suffer a loss of $2000.
2. Owner refunds the renter in full. Now the renter is made whole and suffers no loss, but the owner, who cannot use the points, now loses the full $2000.
3. (and this is the one that kind of makes the most sense to me in this situation) They split the difference, share the pain, by having the owner refund the renter $1000.

A horrible and tricky situation all around!

My opinion is Disney is unable to provide lodging if any one loses or takes it on chin it should be Disney... But let's say they issue credit for points in terms of lodging credit to be used at non dvc. Let them buy back points from time of closure. Why I think this won't hurt Disney, the economy is about to nose dive. They will have empty rooms. If you don't believe me, even CNN says half of folks are going to lose jobs. Disney is a luxury. If Disney books empty rooms, they actually win by selling park tickets and meals. They can do a one time amendment to the dvc contract. This won't affect availability of dvc bookings either by moving this out of dvc to the market that's going to suffer from economic downturn.

 

[Sandisw]

Contracts 101, every phrase in a contract matters. The phrase “[c]aused by or relating to the failure of the DVC owner....” limits the DVC owner’s liability to actions they took which caused the reservation to be canceled.
Because the DVC owner did nothing to cause the reservation to be canceled this clause simply does not apply in the current situation and it does not make the owner responsible if a third party, in this case DVC, cancels the reservation.
Other provisions in the contract may address force majeure type scenarios, but this clause on it’s face limits its’ applicability to cases where the owner caused the cancellation.

So, what you are saying is that the clause in the renters contract with David, supersedes the clause in my contract with David’s?

If that is true, it’s good to know that I can’t be held to what i signed.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Maybe the rest of the resort stay is cancelled?

Nonetheless a contract was signed and the owner upheld his part and should get paid.

 

[Disneykate605]

Keep us posted as to what happens. I am curious if the renters don’t show up today if they return your points like they are doing on the cash side

On Sunday afternoon (the day they were supposed to check-in) I was asked to cancel their reservation (after I reached out to David's again).
I was nervous DVC was going to give me a problem since it was day of reservation but they did not. They returned the borrowed points back to 2020.
David's asked me to reschedule if there was availability (which there wasn't) or if I was willing to re-rent the points to pay back the renters. I said we were on board for either scenario. I sent an email letting David's know that I was able to get the points back and I would be awaiting further instructions from them on the next step.

 

[Lewisc]

This discussion reminds me of discussions 10 years, or more, ago regarding ebay sales. Sellers terms attempted to make the buyer liable if the item was never received, was damaged in transit or was otherwise not usable. The sale isn't complete until the buyer receives the merchandise. Insurance only served to protect the seller. Likewise an auction that says as is doesn't necessarily mean the seller can ship you a box of broken parts. It took years before sellers, and ebay, understood that.

An owner "rents" a reservation for s stated resort, unit type and dates. In what world to people think the owner is entitled to be paid if the resort is closed? Use my ebay example. Listing terms don't supersede contract rules.

Some posters mention a discrepancy between the owners contract with Dave's and the renters contract. Are we suggesting Daves can recapture the money from the owner and not have to return it to the renter?

I'm only talking about stays where the resort is closed. Dave's should be refunding the 30% held back immediately. Probably should also give the renter whatever commission Dave held back from the owner. VRBO is refunding all fess back to the renter.

 

[cvjw]

WHAT

So David’s rented your points and paid you like 70% then come checkin day and renters checked in and then they didn’t want to pay up the rest? Do you know why?

They said they were busy and would try to pay me in the next few days. I told them no way. I upheld my end of the bargain and they needed to uphold theirs. They eventually did pay, after I pitched a fit. It probably also helped that I have let them rent out alot of points for me over the last few years and told them they wouldn’t get another point from me unless they paid me

My renters all check out before the resorts close, so they are not being affected by the resorts closing.

And, I would have gladly worked with any renter to reschedule, but was not asked to. They can’t have my points and my money too