Does anyone honest to goodness tithe?

[Zippa D Doodah]

WHAT?!?!

I am shocked and appalled. I can't believe Saddleback is doing that!?!

In his book from many moons ago "Purpose Driven Church" Rick Warren talked about accountability in financial discipleship as a pillar of church membership at Saddleback. I am not familiar with that actually being an actual term of membership. That sounds wildly inconsistent with Warren's recent actions.

 

[mickeyfan2]

For those of you who tithe. Do you include the premiums you employer pays on your insurances, do you pay on the pension money the company puts away from your, do you pay it on each increase you get in your investments etc.?

For DH and I we pay our own premiums and retirement with our income. So should I only tithe after I take those out? That would be my real pay correct?

 

[JoyG]

Me again...I don't want to owe anyone or any bank. I think I'd feel like I owed the church and when giving tithes and offerings, I don't "feel" like I owe the $$. Does that make any sense?

Yes! I understand what you're saying! We give to God cheerfully b/c we love him and we want to be obedient...kind of like we didn't owe it to God to get Baptized, it was an act of love and obedience on our part.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Me again...I don't want to owe anyone or any bank. I think I'd feel like I owed the church and when giving tithes and offerings, I don't "feel" like I owe the $$. Does that make any sense?

Oh absolutely it makes sense! I guess I'm just coming at it from a commitment point of view. Lots of people (not applying this to you or anyone else in this conversation) resent pledge cards because they don't want to commit to a certain level of giving. I find this ironic because we make financial commitments all the time in life. Doubly ironic because Jesus tells us to commit ALL to him.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

For those of you who tithe. Do you include the premiums you employer pays on your insurances, do you pay on the pension money the company puts away from your, do you pay it on each increase you get in your investments etc.?

For DH and I we pay our own premiums and retirement with our income. So should I only tithe after I take those out? That would be my real pay correct?

No
No (I'll tithe from that when I draw it)
Yes


ETA: Regarding your second paragraph, if I were your pastor I would tel you that was between you and God. What level of giving seems like the faithful thing for you? (Lotta help, huh )

 

[aquinas]

WHAT?!?!

I am shocked and appalled. I can't believe Saddleback is doing that!?!

That is so wrong on so many levels. I think when we start restricting membership to only those that tithe we are being really legalistic and missing out on the opportunity to witness to new christians and help them grow in their faith. I have a hard time having members sign off on a contract about their lifestyles before they join also. Having people sign a contract before they can become members really crosses the line into legalism. Wow.

Before you get all shocked about this, have you actually seen this membership covenant? Do you know of anyone at Saddleback and/or Willowcreek that have actually been denied membership and/or been thrown out of the church for this? Remember Wikipedia is a user submitted website.

Here is the membership covenant of Saddleback:

http://www.baptistpress.com/bpfeature.asp?ID=676

Here are the conditions of membership:

At Saddleback we have four requirements for membership:

1) A personal profession of Christ as Lord and Savior.

2) Baptism by immersion as a public symbol of one's faith.

3) Completion of the membership class.

4) A signed commitment to abide by Saddleback's membership covenant.

Here is the part about giving:

4. I WILL SUPPORT THE TESTIMONY OF MY CHURCH

...By attending faithfully

...By living a godly life

...By giving regularly

"Let us not give up the habit of meeting together...but let us encourage one another." Heb. 10:25

"But whatever happens, make sure that your everyday life is worthy of the gospel of Christ." Phil. 1:27 (Ph)

"Each one of you, on the first day of each week, should set aside a specific sum of money in proportion to what you have earned and use it for the offering." 1 Cor. 16:2

"A tenth of all your produce is the Lord's, and it is holy." Lev. 27:30

Willowcreek and Saddleback have 1000s of members. Do you think that the staff of these churches are scouring the church membership rolls looking for people that give less that 10% in tithes and then kicking them out? They would have NEVER gotten to over 25k if that were the case.

 

[aquinas]

In his book from many moons ago "Purpose Driven Church" Rick Warren talked about accountability in financial discipleship as a pillar of church membership at Saddleback. I am not familiar with that actually being an actual term of membership. That sounds wildly inconsistent with Warren's recent actions.

i agree it is not consistent with Rick Warren at all and his easy believism and watered down "gospel" that he peddles these days.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

aquinas... thanks for doing the homework on that. You beat me to it.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

i agree it is not consistent with Rick Warren at all and his easy believism and watered down "gospel" that he peddles these days.

LOL... I'm not his biggest fan either, but I guess I should reserve my response on that topic for another thread or something.

 

[cybrkitn]

For those of you who tithe. Do you include the premiums you employer pays on your insurances, do you pay on the pension money the company puts away from your, do you pay it on each increase you get in your investments etc.?

For DH and I we pay our own premiums and retirement with our income. So should I only tithe after I take those out? That would be my real pay correct?

Good question. DH and I tithe on our gross income. But as far as my pension and retirement goe, the company I work for automatically puts money into that for me. It's not taken out of my check at all. However, I could add more on top of it if I wanted to.

 

[jimmiej]

I scoured the websites of all three churches mentioned. Nothing found that would back up the poster's claims.

 

[cardaway]

Wikipedia

There has also been much controversy with the introduction of "membership covenants" in many evangelical churches in North America, spearheaded by many mega-churches. These covenants, such as those introduced at the Willow Creek and Saddleback mega-churches, require giving 10% to that church as a condition of membership. Prospective members must sign off on a contract and are interviewed regarding their lifestyle, including tithing. Proponents say this is accountability. Opponents say this teaching is extortion.

Saddleback

At Saddleback we have four requirements for membership:

1) A personal profession of Christ as Lord and Savior.

2) Baptism by immersion as a public symbol of one's faith.

3) Completion of the membership class.

4) A signed commitment to abide by Saddleback's membership covenant.

Looks like they got it right to me. Just because Wikipedia is a user submitted website, it doesn't mean those users are wrong. Unless of course somebody is willing to say they think those users are lying. In this case it looks like the churches own site backs up what those users posted.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

I scoured the websites of all three churches mentioned. Nothing found that would back up the poster's claims.

Nor could I jimmej.

 

[Buckalew11]

Wikipedia

There has also been much controversy with the introduction of "membership covenants" in many evangelical churches in North America, spearheaded by many mega-churches. These covenants, such as those introduced at the Willow Creek and Saddleback mega-churches, require giving 10% to that church as a condition of membership. Prospective members must sign off on a contract and are interviewed regarding their lifestyle, including tithing. Proponents say this is accountability. Opponents say this teaching is extortion.

Saddleback

At Saddleback we have four requirements for membership:

1) A personal profession of Christ as Lord and Savior.

2) Baptism by immersion as a public symbol of one's faith.

3) Completion of the membership class.

4) A signed commitment to abide by Saddleback's membership covenant.

Looks like they got it right to me. Just because Wikipedia is a user submitted website, it doesn't mean those users are wrong. Unless of course somebody is willing to say they think those users are lying. In this case it looks like the churches own site backs up what those users posted.

I guess it depends if Saddleback and Willowcreek are saying you must tithe 10% within their covenant to be a member, right? I wonder if they really do say that? I see you must agree to their covenant but what exactly does that covenant say? If they say that, it wouldn't be the place for me--I'm not into organized religion enough to have someone TELL me to be a member of a church I must do that. It isn't a requirement for being a Christian and should not be used as a requirement for church membership, should it? Hmm... of course, baptism is required by many churches and yet, one must not be baptized to enter Heaven upon death as far as I can see (although the LDS disagrees, I realize). More qustions, more questions, LOL.

All sounds like man-made rules to me, so, NO, I wouldn't subscribe.

 

[cybrkitn]

The car bothers me because it is so easy to get a loan and then those monthly payments can really kill you and I think they who loan the $$ want it to kill you! I might be wrong and wasn't going to say anything about that car post but it really bothered me deeply when I read it. Something tells me God would not want someone to go into deep debt for a car when they are struggling each month anyway. JMHO.

I understand your skepticism. Nine years ago I would have felt the same way, too. And I also had the same question a few months ago as you have stated in your last sentence. It's hard to see how this is from God when all we can see through are our own earthly eyes and the way Man lives. However, try seeing through God's eyes and His ways. It is completely different.

You see, there is nothing that God cannot do when you are obedient to Him. We are the ones that put limitations on God. I don't remember if this is located in the NT or OT, but what we bind in heaven, we bind on earth. What we loose in heaven, we loose on earth. When we are obedient to God we pave the way for Him to bless us so that we may reap in what we sowed.

For example, look at Job. God took everything away from him, yet Job had said, "The Lord giveth and He taketh." Everyone around him thought the reason for his trouble was b/c of something he had done or not done. However, in the end, the Lord restored everything to him and doubled it. Why? Because Job stayed obedient to God.

We don't always get blessed with material things like this car or with money. Sometimes its someone else being blessed through our obedience to God. Friends of ours (married couple with a 3 yo) were having difficulty finding an apartment. They had to move out of the house they were renting because the landlord decided to sell it. God provided a way for them through us and one other person. To see them get into another apartment and break complete ties with their former landlord was a blessing in itself. Their former landlord was the fiance of the husband's mother and was a slumlord. We didn't even have the means to help them until God provided the means.

 

[jimmiej]

Nowhere does Saddleback say you must tithe to be a member. They stress to their new members that tithing is Biblical & the minumum expected by God. As another poster said, this would be very difficult to do without obtaing a person's financial record.

Our church does the same thing. How do we determine if a person/family is tithing? We don't! That's between them & God. We (the church) are responsible for teaching & preaching the Truth of God's Word. The individual is responsible for living it out.

 

[aquinas]

Nowhere does Saddleback say you must tithe to be a member. They stress to their new members that tithing is Biblical & the minumum expected by God. As another poster said, this would be very difficult to do without obtaing a person's financial record.

Our church does the same thing. How do we determine if a person/family is tithing? We don't! That's between them & God. We (the church) are responsible for teaching & preaching the Truth of God's Word. The individual is responsible for living it out.

I agree, no one "hounds" anyone at Saddleback or Willowcreek to tithe. Nor does anyone get kicked out of the church for insufficient tithing. The Saddleback covenant just says that you agree to give regularly and doesnt say you have to give 10% as it states on Wikipedia.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

How would anyone know whether you're giving 10% or not? It just doesn't sound logical to me.

 

[aquinas]

How would anyone know whether you're giving 10% or not? It just doesn't sound logical to me.

It is not logical at all because it doesnt happen in churches as large as Saddleback and Willowcreek.

 

[Pigeon]

The LDS church also requires that you tithe in order to be a member in good standing. If you don't, the local leader won't give you a temple recommend, the document that allows you to get into a Mormon temple. So, for example, if your own children are getting married in the temple, and you aren't forking over your tithe, you cannot attend your own child's wedding.

Mismanagement of church funds is NOT a reason to not tithe. Your responsibility as a Christian and a member of the church is to be faithful in tithing. God will hold those in leadership accountable for the stewardship of the money given to the church.

I think God gave us intelligence for a reason. I think she fully expects us to use the brains she gave us. Continuing to fork over money to people who are irresponsible with it is simply stupid.