Do YOU wear Confederate apparel ?

reddixie said:
Thanks VA32h I wrote a scathing post and x'd out before posting. The war was very diverse. As a Southerner I can tell you I still feel the war daily. I live in an almost completely Northern town. While it is in Central Florida I am surronded by Northerners. They drive me insane daily. I meet someone new and the first question I get that isn't a polite pleasantry is am I a Klan member. Aren't all Southerners racist? (PS my northern friends are more racist BTW I have learned quite a few new hate words from them that I refuse to use) Also I am asked so did you finish school as in High School not college. Did you you learn math and reading? My northern friends are continually amazed that I am "smarter" than them their words. They went to private school up north and yet here is a southerner raised in public school who has some intelligence. I know not great grammar but alas no one is perfect. Lol. They assume that I don't know many things. I do know that our words mean different things and I use expressions that confound them. Sometimes they get offended and I have given them a great compliment. Such as that was so good makes you want to slap your grandma. Very high praise. So while the war is over it isn't and this debate about why I shouldn't wear something that reminds me of my southern heritage only reminds me that it isn't. Sorry this is long. I am just as fed up with people judging me by the part of the country I am from.

Signed a proud Southern Belle


If I were you, I would move.

In the town that you currently live in, you are forced to feel the Civil War daily. You are driven insane daily. You are constantly asked if you are a Klan member. You are surrounded by dumb private school alumni from the North, who are "more racist" (more racist than who, if I may ask? :scratchin ) and have taught you NEW hate words. Not to mention, people ask you if you can read and do math. All of this because you are from the South? :confused3

You are hanging around some very strange people. What you face on a daily basis is not normal, nor is it widespread. I couldn't imagine living in a town where upon meeting a new person, the question "Are you a Klan member?" is asked. Move. Fast. And don't look back :moped:
 
va32h said:
In saying that the 19th century North was no more racist than the 19th century South - that's my own interpretation, based on my reading and studying.

It is a sad fact that the anti-slavery laws of the northern states didn't go so far as to strip the property rights of the slaveowners and escaped slaves found in northern states were often returned to the southern states where slavery was still very legal.

It wasn't enough to cross the Ohio River from Kentucky -- it needs to be remembered that many escaped slaves didn't stop running until they knew they were really safely across the Detroit or Niagara Rivers and in Canada. The reference to Canaan land in the Negro spirituals -- Canada. Uncle Tom's Cabin -- in Canada. Harriet "Grandma Moses" Tubman -- Canadian citizen.

The peculiarity of it all -- the number of Canadian citizens who went South and served with the Confederate Army. :confused3
 
reddixie said:
Thanks VA32h I wrote a scathing post and x'd out before posting. The war was very diverse. As a Southerner I can tell you I still feel the war daily. I live in an almost completely Northern town. While it is in Central Florida I am surronded by Northerners. They drive me insane daily. I meet someone new and the first question I get that isn't a polite pleasantry is am I a Klan member. Aren't all Southerners racist? (PS my northern friends are more racist BTW I have learned quite a few new hate words from them that I refuse to use) Also I am asked so did you finish school as in High School not college. Did you you learn math and reading? My northern friends are continually amazed that I am "smarter" than them their words. They went to private school up north and yet here is a southerner raised in public school who has some intelligence. I know not great grammar but alas no one is perfect. Lol. They assume that I don't know many things. I do know that our words mean different things and I use expressions that confound them. Sometimes they get offended and I have given them a great compliment. Such as that was so good makes you want to slap your grandma. Very high praise. So while the war is over it isn't and this debate about why I shouldn't wear something that reminds me of my southern heritage only reminds me that it isn't. Sorry this is long. I am just as fed up with people judging me by the part of the country I am from.

Signed a proud Southern Belle

As a Northerner who has lived in the deep south for 13 years, yet in a city that is vastly Northern transplants, I do (along with hentob) have to genuinely ask with whom you are associating? I cannot possibly fathom asking the particular questions and throwing the verbal jabs you say you face on a daily basis. I'm 39 years old--an adult--and you are not that much younger than I--also an adult. Who are these grown Northern men and women who (as you describe) speak to you in such an insulting manner? What kind of environment are we speaking of--work, school, your neighborhood? Where I live, we have mutual respect for our differences, and yes, some prejudices based upon our vastly different regional experiences and coloquialisms; but I can assure you that neither I, nor anyone I know (Northern or Southern), verbally assault each other the way you describe. When I first moved here, I certainly didn't understand some of the phrases and words that were used in everday conversation, but learned to fit in in both my work and social environments with relative ease--I ostracized no one. I can say that I was surprised and put off by some things I found (a few local private businesses who won't do business with anyone named "Sherman" :rolleyes2 ), and seeing letters to the editor in the paper about we "Dang Yankees" who should just go home ("Delta is ready when you are") but these people are the *vast* exception in my experience. Although I miss home and much of what I grew up with, there is much I respect about the South--children are taught impeccable manners, and are expected--no--*required* to exhibit them. I can't tell you the compliments I get on my son when we go back home just because he says sir and ma'am--and that's mostly from his Southern upbringing.

I am not doubting you, reddixie, but do question why on earth an adult would allow herself to be such a target of disrespect. If it as bad as you say, I agree with hentob--be a proud southern belle and get out, move, get away from these toxic people.
 
reddixie said:
Thanks VA32h I wrote a scathing post and x'd out before posting. The war was very diverse. As a Southerner I can tell you I still feel the war daily. I live in an almost completely Northern town. While it is in Central Florida I am surronded by Northerners. They drive me insane daily. I meet someone new and the first question I get that isn't a polite pleasantry is am I a Klan member. Aren't all Southerners racist? (PS my northern friends are more racist BTW I have learned quite a few new hate words from them that I refuse to use) Also I am asked so did you finish school as in High School not college. Did you you learn math and reading? My northern friends are continually amazed that I am "smarter" than them their words. They went to private school up north and yet here is a southerner raised in public school who has some intelligence. I know not great grammar but alas no one is perfect. Lol. They assume that I don't know many things. I do know that our words mean different things and I use expressions that confound them. Sometimes they get offended and I have given them a great compliment. Such as that was so good makes you want to slap your grandma. Very high praise. So while the war is over it isn't and this debate about why I shouldn't wear something that reminds me of my southern heritage only reminds me that it isn't. Sorry this is long. I am just as fed up with people judging me by the part of the country I am from.

Signed a proud Southern Belle
Perhaps the best way to start a pattern of getting rid of negative stereotyping is to start with yourself? By not judging others by the part of the country they are from. KWIM?

Your experiences are interesting to me because I have lived in the 'north' all of my, almost, 40 years and have never, ever known anyone to wonder if anyone they met from the south is a 'klan' member. What an odd thing to think. Nor would anyone I know 'assume' that southern people are racist. We are quite aware that racism has nothing really to do with location/region but everything to do with actions and attitude.

Funny thing is that no one that I know even thinks about north/south division in the way that is described here. We don't think of the Civil War often at all, to be honest. I'll bet I can count on one hand how many times I have discussed the Civil War in my adult life for any reason other than a discussion brought up like this one. Even that is rare.

The only time my peers even think about someone being a 'southerner' is when they have a different accent...but mostly we think it is unique and charming. Interesting in the same way we hear any other regional accent from across the nation.

My sister has lived in 'the south' for most of her life and I do not think of her as a 'southerner'...nor do I think of her children in that way, even though that is where they were born and raised. My ILs are also 'southerners', but I never think of them as that...they are just family with strange accents who happen to live in a warmer climate, LOL.

Bottom line, the vast majority of people I know just do not have us all divided that way, it just isn't in our mindset. We are all just people living in different areas of the country. Take each person as the come, that was how I was raised.

"The war" is only still going on in the minds of people who are hanging onto divisive mentality.

JMHO
 

I would not wear it in a box... I would not wear it with a fox.

I do understand that it can symbolize more than just bigotry, I have a degree in history and I also had a great great great (think that's all the greats) grandfather that was a high ranking officer in the confederate army. However, I believe that today, to many people, that flag does in fact symbolize an inhumane and brutal treatment of a large group of citizens of the United States-- and out of respect for those Americans, I will not wear it.
 
My dh has a bodybuilding shirt from a southern conference with a confederate flag on it. I have a hard time even looking at it and fathom why in the world it's on a bodybuilding shirt :confused3 so no - won't wear it.
 
hentob said:
From http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

"Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."


But, as we all know, the Nazis took the symbol and it now has very negative connotations. I just couldn't see wearing a swastika on a t-shirt and saying "But you don't know what it _really_ stands for..That is what I am thinking when I wear it. The good times".

I feel the Confederate Flag is now used by a group of cowards that nobody on this thread would EVER want to be associated with. The KKK proudly wears the Confederate flag, just as Hitler wore the Swastika.

It is America and you can wear what you wish. But, if you are judged unfairly while wearing the Confederate Flag, don't be shocked.


I didn't want to snip any of your post. After reading a good part of this thread, this is exactly what I have been thinking. The people who wear this Condeferate Flag...would they also wear a Swastika? To me, there really is no difference.

Then again...what do I know...I only grew up being labelled as a "minority" simply based on my maiden name. I understand taking pride in your heritage, but I focus on the positive influences of my mixed ethnic background.
 
/
As many have posted, the confederate flag became a symbol of rascism, prejudice, and bigotry in our country, and it's impossible, at this time, to erase that image. All of the explaining in the world is unlikely to change the general perception. The example of the swastika was a good one. There is no way that I can ever look upon it without seeing the actions associated with it, regardless of all I know of it's pre-Nazi history. The same goes with the Confederate flag. I can't see it without seeing it's post war use as a symbol of hatred and segregation.

Someone asked if Northerners of the Civil War era were rascist? The overwhelming majority of whites were, especially if you use the true meaning of the word. Even in my lifetime there are still people who believe that the white race is INHERENTLY superior to other races, particulary those who are darker. I highly doubt that you would have found many Victorian whites who felt that former slaves were their intellectual and cultural equal. Heck, they didn't think that Irish or Italians or other Caucasian groups were, nevermind people of other races.

I grew up in New England, and remember that some of the worse busing riots took place in Boston, not in Atlanta or elsewhere. Rascism was just as common in the North, it just wasn't legislated as in many Southern states.
 
I definitely would not wear it. But I really don't understand how our government - local, state and federal thinks telling people they can't fly that flag is going to change anything.

I mean say we have a business owner who flies the southern cross. Local government tells him he can't fly it, take it down. Has taking the flag down changed anything? If the business owner is racist, telling him to take down that flag isn't going to change him. It just makes him more angry.

My point is I think there are bigger issues regarding racism that should be dealt with, that could make a difference. We need to change peoples hearts and minds not the clothes they wear or the flag they fly.
 
va32h said:
Several years ago, my reaction would have been an immediate and resounding NO!

Now before I go on let me say, the Confederate flag has been co-opted by racist groups, and has come to have a very negative connotation. As such, anyone with a modicum of cultural sensitive should refrain from wearing or displaying this symbol. Having said that, we have a Mort Kunstler print hanging in our home, that does have the Confederate flag in the scene. In it's historical context. Because the Confederacy is a part of our history, and a part worth remembering.

After spending five years living in Virginia, I learned a great deal about the Civil War, and how it emotionally and historically impacted the South and its residents.

Confederates in the Attic by Tony Horwitz is a fascinating book about the way the War continues to affect the South. I highly recommend it.

Anyway, the Civil War is a complex subject, and the North and South are not easily divided into "good" and "bad". The United States did not engage in war with the Confederacy to end slavery; that was a by-product of a war that was fought to return seceded states back into the fold, and establish this nation as a Union that could not be dissolved.

Northerners were no more likely to be less racist than Southerners. Abolitionist societies may have wanted to end slavery, but not for the purpose of welcoming blacks into white society. One group's purpose was to send blacks back to Africa (the country of Liberia was founded in this manner).

New western territories didn't want to forbid slavery so much as they wanted to keep blacks out of their new territories altogether.

Slavery represented an agrarian, plantation-based economy that was entirely at odds with the North's factory and wage-driven economy. Congressmen from the North and South found themselves at odds with each other on many issues.

Imagine this scenario: you are a citizen of a country, you pay your taxes, you follow the laws, you elect representatives. But your government makes decisions that you feel violate your basic rights, as you understand them. You begin to feel that your government is not only not working in your best interests, but is actively working against you. You meet with other like-minded citizens, and make the bold decision to declare your independence from such a government, and to establish your own country.

Now...did you start the Civil War, or the American Revolution?

Most Confederate soldiers fighting in the lines were simple and poor farmers, not slave-holding plantation owners. They considered themselves the true sons of the Founding Fathers, carrying on the tradition of rejecting a government that no longer met the needs of it's citizens. The average soldier didn't fight to preserve slavery any more than the average Northern soldier fought to end it.

The Civil War is a fascinating subject, and certainly worth reading about. In terms of the girl who wishes to wear Confederate gear to school however, I would side with the school. They are entitled to establish a dress code, and students are free to dress as they wish outside of school.


Great post and I totally agree! :thumbsup2
 
reddixie said:
Thanks VA32h I wrote a scathing post and x'd out before posting. The war was very diverse. As a Southerner I can tell you I still feel the war daily. I live in an almost completely Northern town. While it is in Central Florida I am surronded by Northerners. They drive me insane daily. I meet someone new and the first question I get that isn't a polite pleasantry is am I a Klan member. Aren't all Southerners racist? (PS my northern friends are more racist BTW I have learned quite a few new hate words from them that I refuse to use) Also I am asked so did you finish school as in High School not college. Did you you learn math and reading? My northern friends are continually amazed that I am "smarter" than them their words. They went to private school up north and yet here is a southerner raised in public school who has some intelligence. I know not great grammar but alas no one is perfect. Lol. They assume that I don't know many things. I do know that our words mean different things and I use expressions that confound them. Sometimes they get offended and I have given them a great compliment. Such as that was so good makes you want to slap your grandma. Very high praise. So while the war is over it isn't and this debate about why I shouldn't wear something that reminds me of my southern heritage only reminds me that it isn't. Sorry this is long. I am just as fed up with people judging me by the part of the country I am from.

Signed a proud Southern Belle

I had to respond to this. I was born and raised in the state of Alabama (Mobile) and lived there 38 yrs before we moved to Central FL (Tampa area) 1 1/2 yrs ago. I have met alot of wonderful northern people and all my friends are from the north. I have yet had anyone ask me any of the questions you stated and I do not feel judged by them. The only time I feel judged is on the Dis... :teeth:

Am I proud to be a southerner...you bet. Do I use phrases like, 'that was so good it makes me want to slap your mama?" No because it is not worth trying to explain it and to my friends I would sound ignorant. My friends love my accent and I love their accents. We do compare items being called different things like, I call it hamburger meat and they call it chopped meat, I call it a buggy and they call it a shopping cart and ect.


One of the saddest expamples of wearing the confederate flag emblem is from personal experience. My Dh was doing some consulting work in a small county of AL that is very racist and every good ol' boy displays the confederate flag in some form. One guy had the confederate flag as his cell phone cover and wore it openly. Several people complained, word got out who one of the complainers was (black man) and the father (who worked at the office too but different department) of the cell phone owner came across this man (complainer) one day and they began a heated argument. The father went out to his truck and got his pistol and came back into the office and shot the black man and he died. He shot this man in cold blood in front of his co-workers all because of the cell phone cover.

Would I wear the confederate emblem? I haven't yet and I can't imagine beginning to now. I know what it stands for and I am proud of it but it has been twisted into something ugly.

ETA: A true Southern Belle would never write a post with such negativity and racist words.
 
One thing I wanted to mention to those of you who are proud of being Southern and your Southern heritage that I didn't state before and then I may shut up... ;)

The American South has many things to offer the rest of the US and the World. Why focus on a symbol that has now become a one of hate to so many others in our country? Y'all got some good food and nice touristy areas and a lot of historical areas for starters...be proud of that.

And like Southern4sure stated....let's appreciate our differences. I get a kick out of the soda/coke/pop thing and the various accents as a I travel the US.

I was born and raised in a state whose border is part of the Mason Dixon line. I've been accused by true Yankees as being "Southern" and by true Southerners as a "Yankee." I don't feel an affinity for either one.
 
I haven't and I wouldn't but I certainly support the right to wear/display it. Just because you don't like what's being said does not mean you can tell someone not to say it. That's not freedom, that's censorship.

A much more (seemingly) benign example. Are you a Christian? Do you wear a cross or display one in your home? Do you know what that cross stands for to millions of people? Do you know the hatred and violence that has been carried out in the name of that symbol? Are you willing to give it up? I'm not. Arguably more people have died in the name of that cross than in the name of the Confederacy. The problem is people twisting a meaning, not the meaning itself.
 
For those who are interested in learning more about slavery in the North, I recommend reading the Providence Journal's very compelling series on RI very substantial role in the slave trade. You might need to register to view it, but registration is free.
It's something very glossed over in history lessons if taught at all and imho something that we should know about because it puts a much more accurate spin on slavery and that it wasn't all that great to be African American and living in the North.

http://www.projo.com/extra/2006/slavery/day1/
 
reddixie said:
Thanks VA32h I wrote a scathing post and x'd out before posting. The war was very diverse. As a Southerner I can tell you I still feel the war daily. I live in an almost completely Northern town. While it is in Central Florida I am surronded by Northerners. They drive me insane daily. I meet someone new and the first question I get that isn't a polite pleasantry is am I a Klan member. Aren't all Southerners racist? (PS my northern friends are more racist BTW I have learned quite a few new hate words from them that I refuse to use) Also I am asked so did you finish school as in High School not college. Did you you learn math and reading? My northern friends are continually amazed that I am "smarter" than them their words. They went to private school up north and yet here is a southerner raised in public school who has some intelligence. I know not great grammar but alas no one is perfect. Lol. They assume that I don't know many things. I do know that our words mean different things and I use expressions that confound them. Sometimes they get offended and I have given them a great compliment. Such as that was so good makes you want to slap your grandma. Very high praise. So while the war is over it isn't and this debate about why I shouldn't wear something that reminds me of my southern heritage only reminds me that it isn't. Sorry this is long. I am just as fed up with people judging me by the part of the country I am from.

Signed a proud Southern Belle

You post that you are fed up with people judging you by the part of the country you're from and yet you write an extremely bigoted post about Northerners that live in your area.
Let me tell you something, as a private school educated Northerner that spent several years living in the Gulf Coast side of Central FL, I do not use racial slurs. I know what you mean when you say something is slap your momma good, and I have never once assumed someone didn't complete their secondary education because they live in FL nor have I asked someone that. I don't know where you come off saying that Northerners use more racial slurs or are more racist. I've seen just as much coming out of the mouths of pristine southern ladies and gentlemen as I have ever seen coming out of the mouths of people from North of the Mason Dixon.

Like I said, I spent several years in FL and you must live in an extremely sheltered area because the Civil War (or as my friend Jimmy likes to say - The War of Northern Aggression) was not a part of my life on even a monthly basis, forget about a weekly basis. I don't know anyone not a Civil War buff that did focus on the Civil War in the years I spent in FL and up here in RI it's barely a blip on my radar.

Sure I'd see the Confederate flag displayed in some way pretty much every day but the only time it was brought up in my presence was when having a discussion about it with my friend Jimmy who is a amateur Civil War historian and re-enactor and possesses an incredible amount of fascinating information that was very interesting to listen to.
 
I feel she has the right to wear it outside of school. The schools have dress codes and try to keep kids from wearing things that will cause trouble. I feel the same about anything that would be considered as supporting black racist such as black panther stuff maybe even Malcom X. Whether I would wear it I shouldn't be able to tell her whether she can or not. There's alot of stuff I wouldn't wear.
 
I think it's within everyone's right to be proud of where he/she is from and have a level of geographic based pride. Check out the folks from Boston, New York City and the entire state of New Jersey. How about the great residents of Chicago. Ever meet someone from San Diego who swears they have the best weather and will talk you to death until you agree? I'm pretty sure Hawaiians will do the same. I've met a number of pretty neat proud coffee drinkers from Seattle, a really cool lady who swears her great state of
Alaska has the best scenery in all the world, bar none, an entire family from Vegas (well, not really FROM Vegas, but they relocated there - who's really from Vegas originally?) who truly think their fine city is the original City of Lights and will smack you down until you agree.

I've lived in San Diego (did I tell you about the weather in San Diego? It's really the best you can find anywhere... well, except in June. We call it June Gloom... where are you going?), then Boston (whaddaya mean you don't like the Sox?) , even Japan (hey, I'm taller than the entire country... this is the best place EVER! Well, not when you count the fact they put squid on pizza) , then the South (actually Jacksonville - "Y'all have to go north to go south in Florida... and we don't have all those tourists huntin' down the damn mouse...), then the North again (yeah, I live in New York City, what of it? The Sox suck, Jersey sucks, Florida sucks, San Diego weather sucks, where's Japan? You suck. Get outta my way). I've seen varying levels of pride everywhere.

Then there's gay pride (we're here, we're... blah blah blah), black pride, womyn pride, little people pride, disability of every kind in the entire universe pride, metrosexual pride (not sure what that is but it involves expensive lip balm, moisturizers and boy band hair), single parent pride, home schooled pride, men pride (no, not gay pride, see above), here a pride, there a pride, everywhere a pride pride.

Being pride is natural. We've all been proud of ourselves at one time or another. Most of us our proud of where we're from. Well, except for folks from that little country with a name that's pronounced with clicks. Because where the hell is that anyway? Pride is good. But when pride is a veiled attempt at separatism, it becomes pretty stupid if you ask me.

Unless there's a special day to celebrate Tall Half Asian Half Scottish Gay Men With Bad Eyesight Fabulous Hair and Braindead Fat Dogs. If that day comes, I'm going to wave my flag, march in my parade and think you all suck.
 
JadenLayne said:
Wonderful post Va32h!

The Klan and other extremeist groups have made the Confederate Flag what it is today. To the original question, yes I would, yes I have and yes I will and my family and I NEVER owned slaves nor are we racist. However, we are proud to be from the South. I have nothing to be ashamed of and am only making the statement that I'm from the South when I wear a t-shirt with the Confederate Flag on it. People can assume what they wish but I dare anyone to make an assumption about me based on something I wear. As I said before I am about the most un-racist person you will ever meet.

I am proud to be a southerner, too (Tarheel by birth, following 6 generations of Virginians), but I would only ever consider flying the American flag. I consider myself an American first and foremost.

I agree with PP's that things are not always simple (e.g. there were plenty of New Englander's that made their fortunes shipping slaves), but I find it disingenuous to say the Civil War was about "states' rights". Which rights exactly? The right to hold slaves is the only right I ever remember being at issue. I always thought it was wrong for Southerners to fight for the "right" to own other people (even if most of them didn't). Maybe they could have taken a stand over a different states' right?

But I will say I resent the assumption that Southerners are more racist than people from other parts of the country. I remember arguing in college with a girl from Indiana about that. I wish I'd known at the time that Indiana was a hotbed of Klan activity in the 1920's!
 
hentob said:
From http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

"Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."


But, as we all know, the Nazis took the symbol and it now has very negative connotations. I just couldn't see wearing a swastika on a t-shirt and saying "But you don't know what it _really_ stands for..That is what I am thinking when I wear it. The good times".

I feel the Confederate Flag is now used by a group of cowards that nobody on this thread would EVER want to be associated with. The KKK proudly wears the Confederate flag, just as Hitler wore the Swastika.

It is America and you can wear what you wish. But, if you are judged unfairly while wearing the Confederate Flag, don't be shocked.

Excellent post. :thumbsup2
 
LauraR said:
I agree with PP's that things are not always simple (e.g. there were plenty of New Englander's that made their fortunes shipping slaves), but I find it disingenuous to say the Civil War was about "states' rights". Which rights exactly? The right to hold slaves is the only right I ever remember being at issue. I always thought it was wrong for Southerners to fight for the "right" to own other people (even if most of them didn't). Maybe they could have taken a stand over a different states' right?

The right of self determination and autonomy from Federal rule. That was the right they were fighting for.
 

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