Do YOU wear Confederate apparel ?

[mrsltg]

Man I hate it when people put words in my mouth -- show me where I said this. I mean it -- I want you to quote me where I said this.

These are the facts. The flag was a battle flag for a very sad, bloody war. For many people, it's defeat signified their freedom, and when people don't want to give it up, it is hurtful.

I'm waiting for you to back up what you just said about me.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I said, "You SEEM...". That's my read on your comments.

Again, I await your answer on the cross. And while we're at it, let's throw the American Flag into the mix. How do Native Americans feel when they see it? Which slave ship sailed under the Confederate Flag? If we want to get rid of symbols of hate I think we have a long list before we ever touch the Confederate Flag.

 

[auntpolly]

oops, there you are right above me.

 

[flatline]

Aunt Polly you seem to have a very yopic view of what the Civil War was - Good (north) vs. Evil (south) it simply wasn't that way. You stated what you learned in history. What you learned was not the complete truth.

However, I will ask you specifically - "Defender of Faith" - what about that cross? Do you know that entire groups of people were slaughtered in its name? Are you as willing to want it to disappear because some people find it offensive? Heathenry is the perfect example. Entire folkways nearly wiped off the face of the Earth. Do you think the modern day Heathen enjoys seeing the cross? It's a symbol of hatred, intolerance, and fear to them, too. There's a lot of parallels here. Saying one is unacceptable while the other is acceptable is very interesting to me. Funny that the one more widely accepted is the one that is respsonsible for more horror.

I won't wear anything with a confederate flag just like I won't wear anything camoflage, it looks redneck and hick-like. and I don't really get the whole North vs South thing anyway.

but I agree with you, the Catholic church itself has left more bodies in it's wake over the cross than the confederate army could have ever achieved.

 

[mrsltg]

but I agree with you, the Catholic church itself has left more bodies in it's wake over the cross than the confederate army could have ever achieved.

I agree with you - and I'm Catholic. Figure that out!

 

[auntpolly]

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I said, "You SEEM...". That's my read on your comments.

Again, I await your answer on the cross. And while we're at it, let's throw the American Flag into the mix. How do Native Americans feel when they see it? Which slave ship sailed under the Confederate Flag? If we want to get rid of symbols of hate I think we have a long list before we ever touch the Confederate Flag.

Sorry, what about the cross? I missed it -- I'll have to go back and look. I guess you mean that it is hurtful to some people.

The confederate flag is special, because it was created specially for the war, right? If it had some other meaning before the war, I might change my mind, but it was created for the war.

Oh, and I love when people say "it seemed" -- sorry, but you have to back that up just the same --how did it "seem" that I was saying that?

 

[mrsltg]

The national flag was created as the flag of the Confederacy (a peaceful country before invasion - depending upon your view of the secession). The battle flag was just that, a battle flag and the one people generally associate with the Confederacy. ETA - of course your opinion on what the war was fought over matters here. I do not believe this was was started over the freedom of slaves. It was fought over the right to self determination and therefore, the symbol, the flag, is innocuous. As I have said in previous posts - what hateful people have done with it since does not define what the symbol itself is about.

 

[auntpolly]

but I agree with you, the Catholic church itself has left more bodies in it's wake over the cross than the confederate army could have ever achieved.

So has the US government -- so has the British Empire -- so have lots of groups over history.

We are talking about one very specific point in history. And hey, I already said about 100 times I defend your right to use the confederate flag -- just like I have the right to think it is racist and white trash.

 

[auntpolly]

The national flag was created as the flag of the Confederacy (a peaceful country before invasion - depending upon your view of the secession). The battle flag was just that, a battle flag and the one people generally associate with the Confederacy.

OK, we agree.

 

[flatline]

I agree with you - and I'm Catholic. Figure that out!

it simply means you're a rational, and not hypocritical person. it's nice to see that around here.

 

[auntpolly]

I have a meeting in 10 minutes and I have to go -- but really, if there were a trial, or someone trying to make the flag illegal, I would be on your side. I think you have the right to use it if you like.

You can't control what I or anyone else thinks of it personally, though. Sorry. Go use if with my blessing. Make beach towels and curtains and pet clothes out if it for all I care if it turns you on!

 

[mrsltg]

Yikes! While this is becoming very interesting and thought proviking (nice to see) I must do some work. Will rejoin later!

 

[flatline]

So has the US government -- so has the British Empire -- so have lots of groups over history.

We are talking about one very specific point in history. And hey, I already said about 100 times I defend your right to use the confederate flag -- just like I have the right to think it is racist and white trash.

I never said I promote the use of the confederate flag. I don't think it's racist, but I agree with the white trash comment.

 

[bsmcneil]

You are clearly misinformed. The Confederacy saw itself as defending the Consitution. You want anti-American? How about a President that had an entire state legislature put in jail so they couldn't vote to secede and so that another would be afraid to vote (MD and NJ). How about a President who demanded the war be as bloody as possible so as to teach the southerners not try this again. How about a President who wanted to ship all the "negros" back to Africa - ahhhh yes, one nation indeed. The man needed a Prozac for his well noted depression, not a military at his command.

First, let me state the biggest problem with what you said. People with depression (and similarly, people with major crises) can't run a country? What do you think about alcoholics running the country, or worse?

Second, how about people with Confederate flags supporting lynchings? That's American? If you choose to pull out worst case scenarios, I will too.

Third, what about the Consititution did the Confederacy attempt to uphold? I'm willing to listen if you'll point it out, but economic freedom is the basis of what they were supporting. If the North wasn't a threat to their economy, there would not have been as great of a tension between the two.

 

[Cool-Beans]

The difference between the cross and the confederate flag is what they symbolize now, not 100 or 1000 years ago.

That flag has become a symbol of hatred, bigotry and violence. You might just as well walk around with a swastika and say, "But to me it means eternity, not hatred for Jews!"

I'm 100% in favor of allowing folks to wear whatever they want. However, people who wear it are aware of the fact that they will hurt others and they wear it anyway. That in itself shows that the flag continues make its statement.

I have an uncle from Texas City and a BIL from Mobile, AL. I'm aware that there ARE southern people who are still carrying the Civil War Chip around on their shoulder. I just don't see WHY. Makes about as much sense as blaming modern-day southerners for slavery...or modern-day Christians for the Crusades.

 

[mrsltg]

First, let me state the biggest problem with what you said. People with depression (and similarly, people with major crises) can't run a country? What do you think about alcoholics running the country, or worse?

Second, how about people with Confederate flags supporting lynchings? That's American? If you choose to pull out worst case scenarios, I will too.

Third, what about the Consititution did the Confederacy attempt to uphold? I'm willing to listen if you'll point it out, but economic freedom is the basis of what they were supporting. If the North wasn't a threat to their economy, there would not have been as great of a tension between the two.

No, I don't think people with untreated mental illness should run the country. I believe his illness had an undue effect on him at times and he was not fit for the role he was playing.

PEOPLE support lynchings the flag does not. PEOPLE have perverted the symbol - the symbol itself is neutral. Having people arrested for their political opinion is not a "worst case scenario" it's in direct violation of the First Ammendment. The South was in favor of the limited Federal involvement permitted in the Constitution. They believed they were having their states' rights overridden. That is unconstitutional.

Cool-Beans- For a lot of people the cross now symbolizes hatred and bigotry. There are heathens and atheists on this board. Shouldn't be too hard to find at least one (more likely many) who will tell you the cross stands for hatred and intolerance to them - here, now, in 2006.

 

[Honu]

There are heathens and atheists on this board. Shouldn't be too hard to find at least one (more likely many) who will tell you the cross stands for hatred and intolerance to them - here, now, in 2006.

I think you're wrong on that. I actually have zero reaction in seeing a cross displayed. Unlike a swastika or confederate flag, the symbol of a holy cross invokes no feelings, good or bad. But like most atheists I know, I don't harbor any ill will against religions or what anyone chooses to believe. It's only when those beliefs are pushed on others that we have a problem.

 

[va32h]

Third, what about the Consititution did the Confederacy attempt to uphold? I'm willing to listen if you'll point it out, but economic freedom is the basis of what they were supporting. If the North wasn't a threat to their economy, there would not have been as great of a tension between the two.

*Sigh*

This has been explained at least three times in this thread, and at least twice by me. We were discussing the Founding Fathers, the creators of the Constitution itself.

The Constitution does, in Article I, Section 10 does say

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of De

, which would seem to make the secession unconstitutional. However, the seceded states did not wish to be a part of the US anymore, making the Constitution no longer binding to them.

Putting aside all issues of economy and slavery, etc. the Civil War occurred because a collection of southern states decided to withdraw from the US and form their own nation, and the US government declared that they could not do that, and invaded those states in order to force them to return to the US.

Had the US not made an effort to forcibly return those states to the fold, there would have been no war.

In any case, it's the Declaration of Independence we were talking about, in reference to the Confederates maintaining the ideals of the Founding Fathers. (and if I said any different in an earlier post, I erred.)

The American Revolution began because a group of concerned British citizens felt they were not being served by their government, and that they should in fact, separate from England, and form a new country.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,

The above quote is from the Declaration of Independence.

The southern states believed that the US government was "destructive of those ends", and they chose to "abolish it" within their states and "institute new Government" - i.e. the Confederate States of America.

Regardless of the reasons why the south felt compelled to secede, the bottom line is -- they did exactly what the Revolutionaries did.

That is what people mean when they say that the Confederacy follwed in the footsteps of the Founding Fathers.

 

[WonderfulDreamer2]

It is not the symbol that is distructive or offensive IMO it is the rhetoric which is too often attached to it; or the attitude of so many people who use this symbol as their rally cry. There hasn't been a whole lot of other symbolism attached to the Confederate Flag to offset this image in people's minds as in the case of the cross or the US flag.

the kkk did use a burning cross as their calling card. I am not sure of the symbolism they hoped to invoke with that image.

 

[roger_ramjet]

Really? Looked like a perfect example of doing exactly what he was accusing others of doing to me.

All I see in this thread are well thought out opinions of what they see as people embracing a very distasteful piece of history.

Some were well thought-out. Most were snide and disrespectful and completely lacking in thoughtfulness, and instead decided to focus on the most negative portrayals possible.

I don't think people necessarily embrace this 'distasteful' history - they merely remember it. I don't find anything wrong with this and I have a hard time understanding why so many do, and I am not even a native of this country, let alone the region.

 

[Cool-Beans]

I don't find anything wrong with this and I have a hard time understanding why so many do, and I am not even a native of this country, let alone the region.

That flag represents a time during which we had slavery in the southern states. While the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, slavery was a part of the South at that time...the two went hand in hand.

Then the KKK adopted it as theirs. The KKK is a group devoted to hatred of blacks, Jews, Catholics, gays, and I don't even know what else. Not only do they use it to CELEBRATE that part of our history, but it symbolizes all of their violent acts. They humiliated, beat, hung, tortured and killed people...and that flag has come to symbolize everything they stand for and celebrate.

Regardless of what the swastika stood for before the Nazis adopted it, it now stands for everything the Nazis did. Same deal with that flag. It now represents slavery and the KKK. That's why we don't like it.

If you are one of the groups the KKK hates...and especially if you are black, the thing is a slap in the face.

Everyone in this country understands that there are connotations associated with that flag that are insidious at best.