Do you think American kids get a bad rap on education?

[friend of pooh]

I'm all about stepping up to the plate, but seriously--7-8 hours a day in a school for 180 days a year (assuming no hefty absences that would prohibit promotion!)---that's an awful lot of time to simply blame an uncaring parent.

You are kidding, right? How are teachers supposed to teach children who don't come to school prepared? Or are told school doesn't matter? How can teachers teach when little Johnny is constantly disrupting the class and calls home get the teacher nowhere? How can teachers teach when there are threats of violence (that of course the parents know nothing about)? How can teachers teach when the parents argue every little thing with a teacher? How can teachers teach when parents believe their child can do no wrong? How can teachers teach when many children sit in front of them with learning disabilities but the parents refuse testing? How can teachers teach when the students come to school so tired they can't keep their eyes open and when asked why they say because they were up late watching tv/playing video games?

Kids might be in school for 7/8 hours a day, but the teachers didn't give birth to them and therefore shouldn't be expected to do everything for them.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

... And here we have an illustration of sorts. (And please understand that I'm not picking on either of the posters that I have partially quoted. I also know that the second poster was speaking of a middle-school aged student.)

I've been a librarian for over 20 years. I can tell you that the scavenger hunt was necessary because SO many incoming Freshmen believe that Google is just as good as an academic library. These days I work exclusively with postgrads in the hard sciences, and I cannot tell you how many of them STILL believe it, after at least seven years of higher education. The Speech teacher would have discovered very quickly who used the library's resources and who just Googled for the answers.

Even public libraries provide access to resources that are not freely available via Google, but undergraduate academic libraries provide far more of such resources. Furthermore, Google's search algorithm is set up in such a way that it is easily influenced by syntax, so HOW you search will determine the order of your result in most cases.

Here's a fun trick: do a Google search on terms A and B (pick any two terms you like, even phrases), each one entered one time in the search box. Print off your first page of results. Next do a search in which you enter term A four times and term B only once, (yes, just repeat the term 4 times in the search box) and examine how the results differ. Then reverse the search entry order and check it again. I predict that you'll probably get a bit of a surprise. (After five years of this work, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of PhD-level researchers who already knew about this difference when I first met them.)

Many, many studies done by Google and by academic researchers have shown that the average student who depends on Google will not look through more than the first three screens of results. The teacher could easily design questions that insure that the correct answer does not pop up in a predictable simple Google keyword search result until screen five or six, where almost none of the Google-dependent will persevere in looking for it.

You're joking, right?

I suppose she could have gotten a book of quotes from the library, after all she is only 9.

We go to the library every week and I am teaching my daughter how to use it thank you very much!

And FWIW--our library card catalogue is on line now too--completely, so when you use the search at the library, it is effectively googling, but of course only what is in their system.

It is quite absurd to compare a 4th grade assignment to a college level speech class and use it as a demostration of why college has to include library 101 in a speech class.

Do we think Google is just as good? No--but when you can get full texted documents on-line and see the whole speech (or in one case see a youtube posting of the speech being given by the original speaker)--it isn't exactly worthless even in comparison with a library.

She was asked to find the person who said these things, not write a term paper. Thus google was an effective resource for that purpose.

 

[eliza61]

I do want to point out that I think it must be a multi prong approach so to speak.
There are no magic bullets.

PP are right, parental involvement can definitely plays a part but what do we do with our students who's only crime was to be born to lousy parents? They're not going any where and there is a definite cost to any society directly associated to the number of illiterate members.

What about our poor citizens? If education is truly the great equilizer and the only way to pull oneself out of poverty, how do we ensure that rural Kentucky schools or Inner city Philly students have a fighting chance?

What part do teachers play? Nowadays teachers are no longer "just" teachers. most that I know are social workers, police man, disciplinarians and a whole host of other "jobs". How do we support them?

If our kids are going to be competitive in this new global market these are some of the issues our educational system needs to address.

 

[golfgal]

You're joking, right?

I suppose she could have gotten a book of quotes from the library, after all she is only 9.

We go to the library every week and I am teaching my daughter how to use it thank you very much!

And FWIW--our library card catalogue is on line now too--completely, so when you use the search at the library, it is effectively googling, but of course only what is in their system.

It is quite absurd to compare a 4th grade assignment to a college level speech class and use it as a demostration of why college has to include library 101 in a speech class.

Do we think Google is just as good? No--but when you can get full texted documents on-line and see the whole speech (or in one case see a youtube posting of the speech being given by the original speaker)--it isn't exactly worthless even in comparison with a library.

She was asked to find the person who said these things, not write a term paper. Thus google was an effective resource for that purpose.

Did it occur to you that the assignment was geared toward learning WHERE things are in that particular library vs how to us A library. Also, I think if you would visit a state with good schools you might get a different perspective vs judging all the schools based on your experience in the bottom 10% of the schools in the US. Also, what kind of college does she duel enroll at, local community college, prestigious 4 year school? I think that makes a difference as well.

Then, to answer your question about how schools can't educate a child in 7-8 hours/day. The KID has to participate in that education. If the child comes and sleeps through classes, never takes notes, never studies for a test there is only so much a teacher can do. This kind of attitude starts at home NOT in the schools. When a parent drops a kid off in kindergarten never having read that child a book and tells the school it is their job to educate them you pretty much know how much home support is going to come there.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You are kidding, right? How are teachers supposed to teach children who don't come to school prepared? Or are told school doesn't matter? How can teachers teach when little Johnny is constantly disrupting the class and calls home get the teacher nowhere? How can teachers teach when there are threats of violence (that of course the parents know nothing about)? How can teachers teach when the parents argue every little thing with a teacher? How can teachers teach when parents believe their child can do no wrong? How can teachers teach when many children sit in front of them with learning disabilities but the parents refuse testing? How can teachers teach when the students come to school so tired they can't keep their eyes open and when asked why they say because they were up late watching tv/playing video games?

Kids might be in school for 7/8 hours a day, but the teachers didn't give birth to them and therefore shouldn't be expected to do everything for them.

No, I'm not kidding.

Not kidding....at all!

I've listened to many teachers speak of their trials and tribulations at school. I'm sorry, but there are problems all around and it is unrealistic for parents to take all the flack for that.

You're right--the teachers didn't give birth to them--but a court system permitting the parents to "win" promotion for their child is an abomination when the child is undeserving of that promotion.

The more the system essentially rewards poor behavior, the longer that poor behavior will continue.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Did it occur to you that the assignment was geared toward learning WHERE things are in that particular library vs how to us A library. Also, I think if you would visit a state with good schools you might get a different perspective vs judging all the schools based on your experience in the bottom 10% of the schools in the US. Also, what kind of college does she duel enroll at, local community college, prestigious 4 year school? I think that makes a difference as well.

Then, to answer your question about how schools can't educate a child in 7-8 hours/day. The KID has to participate in that education. If the child comes and sleeps through classes, never takes notes, never studies for a test there is only so much a teacher can do. This kind of attitude starts at home NOT in the schools. When a parent drops a kid off in kindergarten never having read that child a book and tells the school it is their job to educate them you pretty much know how much home support is going to come there.

I simply stated that parents cannot be the sole blame for the education system.

A child unable to read in 4 years who with a shouting parent can still get promoted is a student in a spineless system who cares more to shut the parent up than it is to educate the student. That is laughable and unacceptable and unchanged will lead to many more students being promoted without a basic skill.

*******

The school with my chem class may have been in a bottom feeder educationalo state but had a national reputation for being a school of excellent who every year had an insane number of national merit scholars (in the teens/20s the year I was there when many schools only had all of 1 or 2 if any at all.) Which makes it all the more astonishing that something occured with our teacher that we are not aware of that compromised the integrity and value of our class.

I also attended school in 4 states and have been around the block or two in terms of the variety of educational offerings and teaching styles in the 10 public schools I attended, including 3 high schools.

******
I don't know where the child in question is dual enrolled for speech, but I simply commented that my daughter's speech class seemed much more challenging.

I went to UF and not once did we waste a class period with a library adventure. In some cases, it would have taken the whole class time to walk over there as it is quite a large campus. I may have had various research items to look up for homework--much time has passed, so I do not remember. I do recall having to utilize linux or something like that to look up journalism type pieces. However, not once was class time wasted on an assignment such as that. It was simply homework.

 

[luvmy3]

Let's get to our criminal law system. (eta: doh--speeding is not criminal...but hopefully the point is not missed.)

Johny gets a speeding ticket. Mom takes him to court to fight it and INSISTS the child was NOT speeding. Do you really think the judge is going to let Johny out of the ticket b/c his mother says he wasn't speeding?


How in the world would an educational system or a court system cave to an insisting parent over their ignorant child who literally is incapable of reading?

If the system provides that much power to the parent--shame on the system.
If America is going to insist that all children receive a legally mandated education--then it is unfair of said system to promote such children who are not being educated b/c the uncooperative mom or dad scared them in a courtroom.

I'm all about stepping up to the plate, but seriously--7-8 hours a day in a school for 180 days a year (assuming no hefty absences that would prohibit promotion!)---that's an awful lot of time to simply blame an uncaring parent.

I don't disagree with the bolded, but where is your admonishment of the parent in this case? Surely you don't believe that the parent in the pp's case is doing whats best for their child's education by forcing them to move on. Whether or not its allowed by the system, shame on the parent for taking advantage of it, a good parent wouldn't dream of doing something like that because its not whats best for their child.
And for a child who isn't getting reinforcement at home, and who is clearly behind his peers, 7-8 hours in school doesn't mean anything. 1-2 hours with a *caring* parent 180 days a year can mean a world of difference to a struggling child. I'm a believer that any academic issue concerning my child is the responsibility of the parent first, and it is my job as the parent to ensure the school does what it needs to do to ensure my child is getting the help they need. If I'm going to force the school to do the opposite, then its irresponsibilty on my part, and I am the only one to blame, period.

 

[LisaR]

You are kidding, right? How are teachers supposed to teach children who don't come to school prepared? Or are told school doesn't matter? How can teachers teach when little Johnny is constantly disrupting the class and calls home get the teacher nowhere? How can teachers teach when there are threats of violence (that of course the parents know nothing about)? How can teachers teach when the parents argue every little thing with a teacher? How can teachers teach when parents believe their child can do no wrong? How can teachers teach when many children sit in front of them with learning disabilities but the parents refuse testing? How can teachers teach when the students come to school so tired they can't keep their eyes open and when asked why they say because they were up late watching tv/playing video games?

Kids might be in school for 7/8 hours a day, but the teachers didn't give birth to them and therefore shouldn't be expected to do everything for them.

There are uncaring parents all around the world. Every school system in the world has children with learning disabilities enrolled. Children from around the world attend school everyday without a good nights sleep. Poverty and wealth exist around the globe. These are universal problems. Why are other countries able to overcome these barriers when it comes to education but we aren't able to do the same in our schools? We blame the teachers and/or we blame the parents. Are parents and teachers really that different in other parts?

 

[golfgal]

I simply stated that parents cannot be the sole blame for the education system.

A child unable to read in 4 years who with a shouting parent can still get promoted is a student in a spineless system who cares more to shut the parent up than it is to educate the student. That is laughable and unacceptable and unchanged will lead to many more students being promoted without a basic skill.

*******

The school with my chem class may have been in a bottom feeder educationalo state but had a national reputation for being a school of excellent who every year had an insane number of national merit scholars (in the teens/20s the year I was there when many schools only had all of 1 or 2 if any at all.) Which makes it all the more astonishing that something occured with our teacher that we are not aware of that compromised the integrity and value of our class.

I also attended school in 4 states and have been around the block or two in terms of the variety of educational offerings and teaching styles in the 10 public schools I attended, including 3 high schools.

******
I don't know where the child in question is dual enrolled for speech, but I simply commented that my daughter's speech class seemed much more challenging.

I went to UF and not once did we waste a class period with a library adventure. In some cases, it would have taken the whole class time to walk over there as it is quite a large campus. I may have had various research items to look up for homework--much time has passed, so I do not remember. I do recall having to utilize linux or something like that to look up journalism type pieces. However, not once was class time wasted on an assignment such as that. It was simply homework.

My chemistry class freshman year in college was pretty much a review of what I had in high school. I never cracked a book and still got an A. I didn't go to a "nationally recognized" prep school, just a plain old public high school in a state with good schools. It makes all the difference in the world-just ask the Rhodes Scholar that graduated from our district last year. Our district puts out about 15+ National Merit FINALISTS each year. Dang public schools.

It is also interesting that you seem to categorize all the schools by one or two incidences. A 4th grader unable to read here may be promoted but only after they have done extensive testing for learning disabilities, etc. and found something wrong. There are some kids that will NEVER learn how to do somethings because there is something wrong with them-doesn't make them less intelligent nor does it say that there is anything wrong with the schools, just something haywire in their brains.

 

[luvsJack]

So, everyone has their complaints and gripes. Everyone knows whats wrong with the system (or at least their version of what is wrong).

What's the solution? How do we fix it?

How do we make parents become involved but not give them enough say so to keep their child from being held back?

How do we make sure that the teachers are teaching what they should and the way they should? And how do we make sure the teachers are teaching to the smartest kids (so that they never have to do anything too easy) but make sure the lowest kids get the same material?

How do we make sure that children come to Kindergarten ready to learn? That the teachers don't have to cover taking turns, lining up and how to hold a crayon (for the child who has never seen a crayon or a pencil) and can start right away on math, language and reading?


How do we make our educational system is up to par with those of other countries?

 

[LuvOrlando]

You said POOR. You didn't say illegal immigrants or disabled. So, finding facts (which, frankly, I'm not sure you'd find) saying the US was the BEST amongst industrialized nations, would do nothing to prove that your original assertion was correct.

ETA - off topic and not worthwhile

Why would I have to name them specifically when they make up such a disproportionately large segment of the poor in this country? Doesn't saying one include the others since they are subsets of the whole?

I also do not think I could find a quantitative analysis of this topic, it would have to be more qualitative and infer from that.

 

[NotUrsula]

My chemistry class freshman year in college was pretty much a review of what I had in high school. I never cracked a book and still got an A. I didn't go to a "nationally recognized" prep school, just a plain old public high school in a state with good schools. It makes all the difference in the world-just ask the Rhodes Scholar that graduated from our district last year. Our district puts out about 15+ National Merit FINALISTS each year. Dang public schools.

Actually, the poster you are addressing was speaking of a public school. She's not naming it, but I will, as it is the only school in New Orleans that fits that description: it is Benjamin Franklin High School. You can check their statistics if you like; it's a darned good school, and has been for decades now. Louisiana doesn't have great public schools as a general rule, but they do have a few, and Franklin is the flagship. I would have killed to have attended it.

As it was, I attended public school in a rural parish whose average household income has been consistently rated one of the lowest in the nation: under $20K last year. I made it out, but only because I was determined to do it, and got help from some teachers who hooked me up with college extension programs and correspondence courses, as well as a public librarian who moved mountains to help me find scholarship contests that I could enter. And not to be political, but also because in those days there were enough Pell grants available to mostly get me through college on what I could earn on my own. [My widowed disabled mother didn't have the money, but even if she did have it she would not have given it to me for school; she thought I was uppity for insisting on going to college.]

You can't get blood out of a stone. Louisiana was a very poor state even before Katrina, and there is no property tax base to speak of in most parishes. Better resource management would help, but still not bring them into line with the tax resources available to an Illinois, an Ohio, or a New Jersey.

 

[JennaTX]

You are kidding, right? How are teachers supposed to teach children who don't come to school prepared? Or are told school doesn't matter? How can teachers teach when little Johnny is constantly disrupting the class and calls home get the teacher nowhere? How can teachers teach when there are threats of violence (that of course the parents know nothing about)? How can teachers teach when the parents argue every little thing with a teacher? How can teachers teach when parents believe their child can do no wrong? How can teachers teach when many children sit in front of them with learning disabilities but the parents refuse testing? How can teachers teach when the students come to school so tired they can't keep their eyes open and when asked why they say because they were up late watching tv/playing video games?

Kids might be in school for 7/8 hours a day, but the teachers didn't give birth to them and therefore shouldn't be expected to do everything for them.

I agree, parents need to help, do homework with their child, read at night, etc.

But to the school districts, I wonder how I am supposed to teach my child when there is not enough money for kids to bring home their books?

 

[luvmy3]

I agree, parents need to help, do homework with their child, read at night, etc.

But to the school districts, I wonder how I am supposed to teach my child when there is not enough money for kids to bring home their books?

Books, any story
Flash cards
Workbooks
internet research
make your own math problems
Do your own scienece experiments

Obviously if a child needs to do their homework and its out the book, there isn't much you can do. But if the goal is to help them learn at home, and reiforce what they are doing in school there are a ton of things a parent can do without the textbooks. In our district the math book is available online. If you want to change where the money in the schools is spent you need to be proactive and voice your concerns and vote. Unfortunately I don't think enough people take the time to really find out what happens to their tax dollars when it comes to schools, they don't go out and vote for or against the budget, but then turn around and complain. (Not saying you, just in general) I know we have a dismal turn out for every budget vote, its really quite sad.

 

[golfgal]

Books, any story
Flash cards
Workbooks
internet research
make your own math problems
Do your own scienece experiments

Obviously if a child needs to do their homework and its out the book, there isn't much you can do. But if the goal is to help them learn at home, and reiforce what they are doing in school there are a ton of things a parent can do without the textbooks. In our district the math book is available online. If you want to change where the money in the schools is spent you need to be proactive and voice your concerns and vote. Unfortunately I don't think enough people take the time to really find out what happens to their tax dollars when it comes to schools, they don't go out and vote for or against the budget, but then turn around and complain. (Not saying you, just in general) I know we have a dismal turn out for every budget vote, its really quite sad.

Exactly. I don't understand the mentality of people when they think that school budgets shouldn't go up each year. There is a district near us that for years have been trying to get an operating referendum passed and it keeps getting voted down. They have cut so many programs, busing, etc. and now they are closing several schools. Of course NOW parents are coming out to complain. The worst part is that generally people will see a $100/year or less increase on their tax bill. They won't even notice the increase, yet they just don't think the schools need money for some reason. Everyone comes out screaming that the administration makes too much money and that is the reason for the budget increase--a HIGHLY paid superintendent's salary MIGHT buy one classroom set of books, maybe.

 

[crashbb]

Why would I have to name them specifically when they make up such a disproportionately large segment of the poor in this country? Doesn't saying one include the others since they are subsets of the whole?

I also do not think I could find a quantitative analysis of this topic, it would have to be more qualitative and infer from that.

So, in other words, you cannot back up your statements.

Got it.

 

[love_mickey]

What some ppl dont relize is yes in some places like china the school year is longer but the reason that is they have more holidays then we do..So to make up for that they have longer school years.If they make it so school is longer then i will just home school my children for te fact of if they have longer days they wont get home till 6pm have enogh time for homework shower then to bed when can they play and relax from all of it.I think its just pointless because they are going to suffer from it.I think they can do just as well with things like they are now and if they have some children who need the extra help then give it to them dont force every child to spend all there time during the year because we want to be ahead...Teach them right from wrong how important things are in life and push them to do there best no matter what and tell them as long as they do there best they cant go wrong.