Do you ever remove the standard tips and add them later?

[gotomu212]

I really do think it was about reducing work. I'm sure they now have a system that automatically calculates and adds the tips onto you account and they only have to manually deal with people who want to make adjustments (+/-). Before this they had to wait and go through all those cabin sheets manually to see how much each cabin was leaving and the lines at GS could get horrible back then.

 

[wombat_5606]

I hate the whole concept of tipping in general, where tipping is now essentially mandatory, thereby making it less of a tip. I'd rather they just pay the employees appropriately, and if I'm really bonkers wowed by service, then give them an extra amount. I think tipping as it is done in the US these days demeans the relationship between customer and server. I much prefer the European way.

I actually agree with you. I think it is ludicrous to tip on the cost of food. How does it make sense for me to tip more on my husband's steak meal that cost $20 than my meal for $10. There is nothing different that the waiter does to serve those two different meals.

I really hate the bar gratuity when I have to tip more on a $30 bottle of wine than my $20 bottle of wine.

 

[squirk]

Hey, @squirk, I found this on a law website. Seems to explain why it can't be called a service charge.

What Is a 'Service Charge'?

Service charges will usually be clearly indicated as such. If any of the above listed traits for a tip are missing, however, then it is usually a service charge. In other words, a service charge is, when:

1. The payment is mandatory;
2. The customer does not possess the unrestricted right to determine the amount;
3. The payment is the subject of negotiation or dictated by employer policy; and
4. Generally, the customer does not hold the right to determine who receives the payment.

The IRS provides an example of a service charge occurring when a banquet hall charges at a pre-determined rate not negotiable by the customer. In most cases, that money is then distributed to employees who rendered the services that the hall required at that event -- for example, bartenders, waiters, and janitors.

Service charges are also common if you dine out in larger parties. They are set for the staff and facilities to be able to accommodate you and exert the additional service needed when there are more bodies.

- See more at: http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_li...e-a-tip-ask-the-irs.html#sthash.P4AiUGPu.dpuf

So, in my opinion, I would rather stay with the tip designation.

Great article, thanks. I have no idea, but is Disney bound by IRS definitions of tips for income-reporting purposes with the ships registered in The Bahamas?

Is it possible that, in practice, the "service charge" is more to protect the service staff from getting stiffed after putting all their eggs in one basket serving a single large table over an extended period of time? Banquets are one thing, but a better example might be when "regular" restaurants assess a service charge for parties of 6 or more. Is it really that much more work to accommodate two tables of three people (where there'd be no service charge) vs. one table of six?

Or is the service charge more to protect the server in case one huge table - to which the server has devoted 100% of their shift - walks out without tipping?

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Is it really that much more work to accommodate two tables of three people (where there'd be no service charge) vs. one table of six?

It can be. Making sure everyone has drinks available, as well as seeing that the meals are served at the same time (at the correct temperatures) for a table of 6 takes more work than two tables of 3, where all six meals don't have to come out at the same time.

 

[squirk]

It can be. Making sure everyone has drinks available, as well as seeing that the meals are served at the same time (at the correct temperatures) for a table of 6 takes more work than two tables of 3, where all six meals don't have to come out at the same time.

More work, yes. But enough extra work to justify a 20% non-negotiable surcharge on the bill? I'd have to disagree with that.

 

[wombat_5606]

Great article, thanks. I have no idea, but is Disney bound by IRS definitions of tips for income-reporting purposes with the ships registered in The Bahamas?

Probably not, but does give you a perspective on why they don't use the term.

Is it possible that, in practice, the "service charge" is more to prevent the service staff from getting stiffed after putting all their eggs in one basket serving a single large table over an extended period of time. Banquets are one thing, but a better example might be when "regular" restaurants assess a service charge for parties of 6 or more. Is it really that much more work to accommodate two tables of three people (where there'd be no service charge) vs. one table of six?

Or is the service charge more to protect the server in case one huge table - which the server has been handling exclusively - walks out without tipping?

May or may not be. @PrincessShmoo, you beat me to it and I do think serving a large table is more difficult for the server. If they only serve a table for 2, relatively easy for them to bring those 2 drinks out, then 2 apps...so on.

But, everyone has to work a little harder for bring out drinks for 16 people, then make sure their meals come out of the kitchen at the same time and have extra servers help to make that happen.

Hey, I'll talk to you all day if you want. Seems like you have your opinion and I'm definitely firm in mine.

I'm spending the premium to sail with DCL and have no issue with the gratuities, whether they are called one thing or the other, or whether they are pre-paid or not. They have their procedure, they made it known to me before I booked and I'm not going to skimp on a few dollars for the people that are taking care of me for the duration of my cruise.

 

[wombat_5606]

More work, yes. But enough extra work to justify a 20% non-negotiable surcharge on the bill? I'd have to disagree with that.

Then don't patronize them.

 

[squirk]

Probably not, but does give you a perspective on why they don't use the term.



May or may not be. @PrincessShmoo, you beat me to it and I do think serving a large table is more difficult for the server. If they only serve a table for 2, relatively easy for them to bring those 2 drinks out, then 2 apps...so on.

But, everyone has to work a little harder for bring out drinks for 16 people, then make sure their meals come out of the kitchen at the same time and have extra servers help to make that happen.

Hey, I'll talk to you all day if you want. Seems like you have your opinion and I'm definitely firm in mine.

I'm spending the premium to sail with DCL and have no issue with the gratuities, whether they are called one thing or the other, or whether they are pre-paid or not. They have their procedure, they made it known to me before I booked and I'm not going to skimp on a few dollars for the people that are taking care of me for the duration of my cruise.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just enjoy the back-and-forth congenial debate.

For example, this debate convinced me that taking the tip off and then adding it back when I'm ready might feel like I'm in control, but it really doesn't send much of a message to DCL, takes away from my time on the ship unnecessarily, and causes trouble for my serving team and the stateroom attendant. The email to Guest Communications would still get my point across while avoiding all of those problems.

And for the record, "skimping" on my part was never part of the discussion. I think I made it abundantly clear - more than once - that I go in fully prepared to tip the full recommended amount, if not more, because those servers work their asses off and deserve every penny.

Then don't patronize them.

Impractical when you don't know about the service charge until you've made your way to the restaurant, been seated and handed your menus.

Where's @Club Disney Chandler when we need him? I'd love to hear his input.

 

[wombat_5606]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just enjoy the back-and-forth congenial debate.

That's cool. Didn't really think you were trying to change my mind.

For example, this debate convinced me that taking the tip off and then adding it back when I'm ready might feel like I'm in control, but it really doesn't send much of a message to DCL, takes away from my time on the ship unnecessarily, and causes trouble for my serving team and the stateroom attendant. The email to Guest Communications would still get my point across while avoiding all of those problems.

I agree the email would be a better way to go, but I just have to know, what do you see as the correct way for them to handle it? I hope you read this post:

I really do think it was about reducing work. I'm sure they now have a system that automatically calculates and adds the tips onto you account and they only have to manually deal with people who want to make adjustments (+/-). Before this they had to wait and go through all those cabin sheets manually to see how much each cabin was leaving and the lines at GS could get horrible back then.

Don't you agree that this would be a nightmare for GS? I bet there would be more mistakes made to onboard accounts. Then those cruisers are off the ship and DCL would have to contend with calls and emails trying to get it resolved. The way it's handled now, just those passengers with an issue, which I believe is the minority, have to visit GS.

And for the record, "skimping" on my part was never part of the discussion. I think I made it abundantly clear - more than once - that I go in fully prepared to tip the full recommended amount, if not more.

Didn't mean to imply you wanted to skimp. I apologize for my poor choice of words. Just trying to point out that I am fine with the amount, how it's charged and what it's called and just can't understand why someone does, especially if they don't intend to decrease the tip amount.

 

[squirk]

I agree the email would be a better way to go, but I just have to know, what do you see as the correct way for them to handle it?

Honestly, I think DCL could do a better job presenting the concept up-front. Not everyone reads the FAQ (yes, they should, I know), but honestly, if you have no reason to believe that tipping is different on a cruise than it is on land, or that this cruise truly is "all-inclusive" - in other words, if you don't have a question - why would you read a FAQ in the first place?

Not everyone works through a TA, and DCL should not automatically assume that a TA will have the gratuity discussion anyway. Given that DCL's "tips" do not work the same way as "tips" work in virtually every other service industry people interact with, and given that those tips can really add up on a longer cruise for a family of four, a little more proactivity would be welcome.

I remember John talked about this on a DCL podcast way way back, and how he didn't think anyone purposefully boarded the ship with the intention of stiffing the servers. But he called out DCL a little for presenting an "all-inclusive" vibe to their cruises, leading people to feel snookered when they find out later on that tips were not included and would be added on top of their cruise fare.

To John's point, I am looking at my cruise booklet right now, and the gratuity thing is found in the back on page 16. Putting myself in the shoes of a first-time cruiser, I don't think I was ever presented with this information (vs. maybe coming across it in a FAQ on the web site) until I received this booklet, after my PIF date. So now, I have to factor in another unexpected $500 into my cruise expenses.

Don't you agree that this would be a nightmare for GS? I bet there would be more mistakes made to onboard accounts. Then those cruisers are off the ship and DCL would have to contend with calls and emails trying to get it resolved. The way it's handled now, just those passengers with an issue, which I believe is the minority, have to visit GS.

Sure, I understand the efficiencies from DCL's standpoint. But I don't like having the tipping "onus" (i.e., the "taking away") shifted to me just to make DCL's life easier.

You are quite right, though. If it really bugged me that much, I just wouldn't cruise. I am still getting on the Fantasy in two weeks, and, barring anything unexpected, I am still going to tip my folks at least the full $504 for the cruise.

Didn't mean to imply you wanted to skimp. I apologize for my poor choice of words. Just trying to point out that I am fine with the amount, how it's charged and what it's called and just can't understand why someone does, especially if they don't intend to decrease the tip amount.

Yes, the recommended "tip" amount itself (in conjunction with the pittance DCL pays these folks) is a screaming deal for the work these folks put in. I think at the end of the day, it simply just irks me a little how DCL encumbers the traditional discretion one normally has when tipping, but still calls it a "tip".

 

[wombat_5606]

Honestly, I think DCL could do a better job presenting the concept up-front. Not everyone reads the FAQ (yes, they should, I know), but honestly, if you have no reason to believe that tipping is different on a cruise than it is on land, or that this cruise truly is "all-inclusive" - in other words, if you don't have a question - why would you read a FAQ in the first place?

This is where I have a huge disconnect. It's not like going to a hotel for a week. It's not like going to an amusement park. It's not like going to a restaurant. It's not like getting on a plane. It's a pretty unique way to travel, so I'd be asking up front what do I need to know to do this trip?

I've never been to an "all-inclusive" resort, but I wouldn't think of booking one without knowing what is expected of me.

Ok, you didn't ask before you booked and no one told you. But now that you know that you are expected to tip, and how the procedure works, what is the real issue? They haven't taken any control from you. You don't want to increase or decrease the tips, then there is nothing to do. You still have the same discretion to increase or decrease the tips as you would if there was no pre-paid gratuity.

Answer me this-Did you pre-pay your tips when you booked and paid for your cruise?

My tips were charged to my onboard account midway through my cruise. I don't see that as officially, pre-paid. I've already been on the ship for a few days. I've received their service already. I have no problem with that.

Answer me this- Are you worried that their service won't be worth the amount of your tips? I can practically guarantee that isn't going to happen. If it does, talk to the person that can help you. If that doesn't help, go to GS. But it's very, very rare that they aren't going to provide you with the service that more than compensates you for the amount you are being charged. The tip amount isn't even 10% of your cruise fare, probably. How could anyone object to that, when they are going to be making your bed, cleaning your bathroom, bringing you clean towels, taking your order for meals and bringing all of the things you want to eat and drink. They see you walking around with an empty glass or see you with a a pool towel that you're going to put in the towel return and they are going to take it from you with a smile.

But I don't like having the tipping "onus" (i.e., the "taking away") shifted to me just to make DCL's life easier.

I guarantee you would have a different opinion when you stood in line behind potentially 1,250 cabins paying their gratuities. But the major point, @squirk, is that there is no onus on you. You aren't going to be decreasing the tips.

Answer me this - What in the world would be so bad that you would need to decrease the tips? What are you expecting out of your CM's? Do you expect everything to be magical or full of pixie dust? Well, you shouldn't. You should only expect normal, usual, clean, civil, happy service like you would find in any nice hotel or restaurant. Will you have something magical or unusual happen? Maybe, but that's not what the tip is for. That would mean a trip to GS for an increase in your tips.

I look at my tips as a thank you for doing those things on the cruise I didn't want to stay at home and do for myself. It's not a tip because you filled my water glass at the instant it was empty. But, maybe that is just me.

Hey, @squirk, just do me a big favor. When you return from your cruise, post and let me know how you feel about the pre-paid gratuity then.

 

[squirk]

Hey, @squirk, just do me a big favor. When you return from your cruise, post and let me know how you feel about the pre-paid gratuity then.

And suddenly, the discussion takes a weird and sarcastic tone.

This will be my fifth DCL cruise. I have done the auto-gratuity four times already, so I am quite familiar with it, thanks.

 

[wombat_5606]

And suddenly, the discussion takes a weird and sarcastic tone.

This will be my fifth DCL cruise. I have done the auto-gratuity four times already, so I am quite familiar with it, thanks.

No, I was assuming you hadn't been a cruise before, since you were bringing up the issue of not knowing about the tips.

By the way, you can't tell sarcasm from a text. I was just trying to say once you'd been on the cruise, you were going to not have a problem with the gratuity and you would let us know that.

It's been entertaining.

Enjoy your cruise.

 

[squirk]

No, I was assuming you hadn't been a cruise before, since you were bringing up the issue of not knowing about the tips.

My posts, including my original one, have been littered with comments about how I've never stiffed a CM, how I recognize how hard they work, and how I always board prepared to pay at least the recommended amount. Not sure how you got the impression I had never cruised before.

By the way, you can't tell sarcasm from a text. I was just trying to say once you'd been on the cruise, you were going to not have a problem with the gratuity and you would let us know that.

And sometimes, even the best of us can come off as sarcastic or condescending in a text without meaning to.

Yes, I think our exchange has run its course, but I enjoyed it!

 

[MeeskaMooskaMickey]

Gratuities....my problem is that they're not really gratuities. You're not paying an extra fee/tip because you're greatful for service received. You're paying the sole wages of an employee. An employee who works exceptionally hard and exceptionally long hours. Cruise companies including Disney are taking advantage of the outdated cruising custom of gratuities to pay their staff. Customers are guilt tripped into paying upfront because it is the "done thing" on cruises and because staff rely on their goodwill.

As much as I love Disney I'm also surprised that they are not more forward thinking and pay their frontline staff a decent basic salary for their hours worked, and leave the guests to reward their staff with additional tips at their discretion based on the guests opinion of service received. I'd like to think Walt Disney would have been more 21st century in the way he treated staff and customers, regardless of what is the "done thing" in the cruising industry.

 

[wombat_5606]

And sometimes, even the best of us can come off as sarcastic or condescending in a text without meaning to.

And sometimes, even the best of us can assign sarcasm and condensencion where none exists.

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[kiford]

I personally consider it to be for my convenience. When I'm on vacation and I don't even choose my own wine because I'm too lazy (I usually pick whatever is paired with my entree on the menu or take the wine steward's recommendation), I'd be pretty torqued out if I had to remember on the last night to go down to Guest Services, stand in line and pay the gratuity or have to remember to bring cash on board (we rarely travel with much cash) in the right denominations. And, although I don't personally consider it to be optional (call it gratuity, service charge, whatever - they worked for it and I think they deserve the minimum at least and there's no point in arguing that they should be paid a salary instead, that's not how the industry works and I'm not going to be able to change it) I do like that unlike many cruise lines, you do have the ability to modify it if you have a really bad server. Though we did have a bad assistant server on one of our cruises and they replaced him after day three of a 12 day cruise after we complained several times. I'd rather have them do that than reduce the gratuity.

 

[squirk]

And sometimes, even the best of us can assign sarcasm and condensencion where none exists.

Fair enough. That last little turn never would have happened if we'd been talking face-to-face.

I look forward to the next discussion.

 

[wombat_5606]

Fair enough. That last little turn never would have happened if we'd been talking face-to-face.

I look forward to the next discussion.

Exactly!

Me too! Maybe we will even be on the same side.

 

[squirk]

Gratuities....my problem is that they're not really gratuities. You're not paying an extra fee/tip because you're greatful for service received. You're paying the sole wages of an employee. An employee who works exceptionally hard and exceptionally long hours. Cruise companies including Disney are taking advantage of the outdated cruising custom of gratuities to pay their staff. Customers are guilt tripped into paying upfront because it is the "done thing" on cruises and because staff rely on their goodwill.

Yes, I almost look at it like a "subsidy" because if you didn't subsidize what cruise lines are paying these people, nobody would work on a cruise ship. In which case, the cruise lines would have to offer bigger salaries to attract people, which in turn would lead to higher cruise fares. So, the idea of just thinking of the tips as part of your fare seems quite accurate, albeit in a roundabout way.