Do you believe misogyny exists and people should be protected from misogyny?

[LuvOrlando]

Well, you said (and it is commonly said by otherwise reliable sources) that a woman could not have credit on her own. She could, OR she could be denied it on the basis of sex. It's a meaningful distinction; in one case it's the government denying the right, and in the other, it is private actors.

What are you getting at? Do you think the law was unnecessary?

I'm not going to disagree & want to understand what the point is you are trying to make, at this time your point is not clear.

 

[ronandannette]

It's not just the husband. Schools, doctor's offices, daycares, etc. will default to calling the mother if they need to reach a parent EVEN IF YOU TELL THEM TO CALL THE FATHER. It's maddening. When you go into a furniture store or a car dealership with your husband, the salesperson will talk to the husband. My husband has explicitly said to these people sometimes 'My wife makes more than I do, she's the one making this purchase' and they will STILL talk directly to him and ignore me.

A boss I worked for recently was angry at a coworker of mine who took a few days off when his son was sick. His exact words when he admonished him later were "Doesn't your wife have sick time? Aren't sick kids her job?"

This same boss once tried to sign me up for training while I was going to be on maternity leave because 'you aren't going to be doing much anyway, babies are boring.'

When he found out I'd be closing my office door a few times a day to pump when I got back to work he threw up his hands and said that I'd be 'useless for most of the day.'

And then one time he was trying to plan for a project and straight up asked me if I was pregnant. I was shocked, but said no. And he followed that up with 'well, are you planning to be because that would be really inconvenient.'

Later in a meeting full of men when I was the only woman present and pregnant, he counted back on his fingers and then said, "I guess your husband had a lot of fun in June, huh?"

All of this is unacceptable behaviour - may I ask how you responded to it? Long gone are the days that women should be putting up with anything like this. It's not right that we need to contend for ourselves in such basic ways, but sometimes still necessary.

 

[sam_gordon]

Well, protected how? Protected against mean words in violation of the free speech of others? No. Protected like Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (in the workplace)? Yes. And protected with what consequence to the offender?

This is where I am.

So there are some protections that are needed, but others that shouldn't be attempted. You can't police one's thoughts. How/where they act on those thoughts might require policing.

So yea, misogyny definitely exists.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Our kids are in their mid and late twenties. Ever since our oldest first started school, they always had us list emergency contacts and in which order they should be contacted. There was never a "default" for calling a mother first.

Dh and I have always divided tasks based on who's better at it. So he is way better at meal planning, grocery shopping and cooking. I'm better at budgeting, bill paying, and helping the kids with their homework. We both clean. Dh is definitely not good with laundry. Sometimes he want to "help" me by doing it all on a day he has off and I see the way he sorts clothes and wonder how he thought those 2 items should get washed together or maybe he didn't even notice the last load that was done was extra small & delicate setting so that is how 10 loads were washed. ugh. I appreciate that he tries though and learned to let go of little things.

I do recall though when ds28 was a baby, dh told me there was no baby changing station in the mens' room of our local grocery store. For day care, I was the drop off parent, he was the pick up parent due to our hours. So when he picked up ds after work and stopped on his way home to get something to make dinner, he struggled with changing his diaper in the mens' room. I wrote the store a letter and asked why would they think fathers don't ever take their babies in a store and wouldn't ever have a need to change a diaper?
They installed one.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Zach Watson who is a self proclaimed "recovering man child". He does a lot of discussions about mental load, invisible labor and the like. He's willing to bluntly discuss how men can fall back on things like domestic labor. The soap refilling, the "make me a list", etc.

There are more promising stats that millennial dads and husbands do share more than prior generations. It still is not as much as women do (both on childcare and domestic labor).

As for not putting up with it well that is why you're finding women who stay single after divorce (especially if done later in life) and why individuals are taking themselves out of the dating pool. **Not meant to be the sole reason but not putting up with stuff IS a big factor in lack in wanting to date/get married/have kids, etc

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

yes i believe it exists. i also believe misandry exists and witnessed it every day at every level of the field I worked in. both are inexcusable.

In the last 10 years, the level of open man-bashing has become out of control. Somehow, they assume because I am female, that I will agree with them.

I work in breast imaging. At least 10x per day I have hear about how a man must have invented mammography equipment and if they had to have it done, they would have come up with a better way to do things, as if it were invented and approved simply to torture women.
I used to zip my lip, worried I could get fired if a patient complained about what I said. Not any more.

Now I politely remind them that men get breast cancer too and some need a mammogram. I also remind them that men have a prostate and getting that exam isn't very pleasant either. If they need more tests on that, it means an ultrasound probe up the butt and possibly needles up the butt too. If I could choose, I'd rather have breasts than a prostate.

Sometimes I remind them that we're thankful to whomever invented mammography because it saves so many lives, including 40 year old mothers with young children who need their mother.

Lately, I point out that the greatest inventions that we all enjoy and take for granted were invented by men such as lights, cars, trains, airplanes, the internet and air-conditioning.

Any of these replies usually gives them a nice warm cup of shut the fark up.

 

[Smugpugmug]

As for not putting up with it well that is why you're finding women who stay single after divorce (especially if done later in life) and why individuals are taking themselves out of the dating pool. **Not meant to be the sole reason but not putting up with stuff IS a big factor in lack in wanting to date/get married/have kids, etc

Yup, I see this firsthand in my friend group. They're choosing to stay single instead of even bothering with dating for a variety of reasons. And my friends that are in relationships have partners who do absolutely NOTHING in the household and I'm not exaggerating. My one friend who is married with 2 kids has a husband who would not know what to do with the kids if she was not around.

But anyway, yes misogyny is 100% real and it's deeply ingrained in our society. Moving away from household responsibilities and towards a different angle, but I frequently play online games and the millisecond I say something in voice chat, I am immediately berated by the boys (don't really even want to call them men) on my team. I get yelled at to get off the game and go make them a sandwich, am asked if I want to be their girlfriend, am made fun of because they automatically assume because I'm female that I'm bad at the game, etc. I've received it from boys as young as elementary school aged all the way to grown adults. It's why I turned voice chat off permanently but even so I hear it happen to other women on my team. Gaming has been associated with being a male hobby and some men REALLY hate it when women come into "their" space.

 

[Bad Pink Tink 2.0]

Theres so much I could say about misogyny in every day life, but if it has to be explained and pointed out, then that defeats the argument. If you (the collective you) cant see a problem then you (the collective you) are the problem.

 

[disneychrista]

Do I think it exists yes. Anyone who says it doesn’t is either lying or in denial. I honestly don’t know what one can do about it. There are already laws in place to prevent it in business and jobs. I 100% feel the best person for a job should be the one who gets it. But also know that there are things that generally men are better at and women are better at. That does not mean a specific woman would not be better than a specific man.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Yup, I see this firsthand in my friend group. They're choosing to stay single instead of even bothering with dating for a variety of reasons. And my friends that are in relationships have partners who do absolutely NOTHING in the household and I'm not exaggerating. My one friend who is married with 2 kids has a husband who would not know what to do with the kids if she was not around.

But anyway, yes misogyny is 100% real and it's deeply ingrained in our society. Moving away from household responsibilities and towards a different angle, but I frequently play online games and the millisecond I say something in voice chat, I am immediately berated by the boys (don't really even want to call them men) on my team. I get yelled at to get off the game and go make them a sandwich, am asked if I want to be their girlfriend, am made fun of because they automatically assume because I'm female that I'm bad at the game, etc. I've received it from boys as young as elementary school aged all the way to grown adults. It's why I turned voice chat off permanently but even so I hear it happen to other women on my team. Gaming has been associated with being a male hobby and some men REALLY hate it when women come into "their" space.

Ugh unfortunately I can see that being commonplace as well gaming can have some really awful toxicity.

While not super common when I was at the insurance company some men would say "listen here little lady" or they say they were going to hang up and try to call again just to get a male...though men working there was actually not super common in the call center so chances are they just got another woman.

I also encountered some men of certain cultures who would speak down to us because we were women.

While an insurance agent could be banned from calling/reaching out for help it usually took severe profanity or severe harassment. Just being disparaging towards women unless crossing that line didn't earn you a ban.

I for some reason remember a woman insurance agent from Montana telling me "you don't know how hard it is to work out here with these men" going on to talk about how being in a male dominated profession with the particular area she was in made it very difficult because the men themselves were very old school way of thinking about a woman's place.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Somehow, they assume because I am female, that I will agree with them.

I'm a big proponent of we can't fight for women to be able to have their opinions be known and truly heard while at the same time as bullying all women to think the same however you lost me on all of your examples you gave and slide right into kinda the whole point of the thread.

If your rebuttal of women's complaints relies upon bringing up what you view as the virtues and tribulations of men you've completely lost the point of those women's complaints and now are in the territory of misogyny.

And if I had someone tell me what you say I'd file a complaint on you in a heartbeat. Not because it has to do with men (that would be my own personal opinion on who you are) but that it's very unprofessional for you to do that. Man or woman makes no difference in who the patient is, your gentle reminder should be left to yourself. It reminds me of the person putting an iv in my hand while I was in the hospital delirious with food poisoning admonishing me for flitching at the needle telling me they've got kids who take needles better. Some people's bedside manners need refreshing.

 

[barkley]

There are more promising stats that millennial dads and husbands do share more than prior generations

I sincerely hope they receive a whole lot less grief regarding their children for it than previous generations. i'm a b.b. with a gen x husband and we married when I was older enough that the bulk of my peers were already done having babies which meant that the parents we encountered/interacted with were primarily much younger than I. I saw so many of these fathers want to be hands-on doing everything with their infants, toddlers and young ones only to have FEMALE family members/childcare providers swoop in with 'no, no, no-daddys don't do that, they don't know how to do it right'. I was outspoken on it and would say 'that's rude-why can't a dad do (whatever it was)' and there would be excuses of 'well, it's just easier for a woman to do, we naturaly know how to do these things, mommies and grandmas are meant to take care of the babies'. if a dad moved forward with doing diaper changes, clothing changes, bottle feeding there would always be a litany of 'no you're not doing that right, let me show you the RIGHT way, i'll fix it when you're done, he likes to think he's helping'. it was no wonder some gave up on even trying. the handful of stay at home dads were a constant source of scorn, riddicule and gossip. single fathers who were the primary caregivers? horrific treatment (they were viewed as suspect in being able to safely care for a child on top of having to be horrifically abusive or such stains upon the earth that they could'nt 'go out and get that poor baby a mom so someone will take care of it').

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I sincerely hope they receive a whole lot less grief regarding their children for it than previous generations. i'm a b.b. with a gen x husband and we married when I was older enough that the bulk of my peers were already done having babies which meant that the parents we encountered/interacted with were primarily much younger than I. I saw so many of these fathers want to be hands-on doing everything with their infants, toddlers and young ones only to have FEMALE family members/childcare providers swoop in with 'no, no, no-daddys don't do that, they don't know how to do it right'. I was outspoken on it and would say 'that's rude-why can't a dad do (whatever it was)' and there would be excuses of 'well, it's just easier for a woman to do, we naturaly know how to do these things, mommies and grandmas are meant to take care of the babies'. if a dad moved forward with doing diaper changes, clothing changes, bottle feeding there would always be a litany of 'no you're not doing that right, let me show you the RIGHT way, i'll fix it when you're done, he likes to think he's helping'. it was no wonder some gave up on even trying. the handful of stay at home dads were a constant source of scorn, riddicule and gossip. single fathers who were the primary caregivers? horrific treatment (they were viewed as suspect in being able to safely care for a child on top of having to be horrifically abusive or such stains upon the earth that they could'nt 'go out and get that poor baby a mom so someone will take care of it').

I think there's still this openly said "awww look at the dad with his kid" kind of thing when you see them out by themselves especially walking with a stroller because it's still not plentiful enough so it catches people off guard or kind of viewed as the rare "dad's day out" or the more egregious IMO "dad's babysitting his kids" because they are his kids he's not babysitting them.

I've mentioned it before how shocked and surprised people were that my husband was involved in our wedding as well as when our house was being built. The assumption was he was just there to be the checkbook (never mind the fact that hello I was paying for the wedding and the house too ).

I've personally experienced some of what you've mentioned not with the kids part because we don't presently have children but as I've mentioned before my father-in-law's wife has been very critical of me and what my role as a wife is supposed to be. The cooking, laundry and everything in between is looked upon with disdain that my husband does his own laundry, that he is the primary cook, etc.

But to your point though I think a minority of people think that way because it's their own opinions formed by themselves. I think a vast majority is borne out of what society expected of them which then becomes a hard belief to break. My father-in-law's wife truly believes her worth is found in the cooking she does, or that she does her husband's laundry so it becomes a threat to her if my husband views it as being annoyed if I take some of his stuff to wash with my stuff because to her that's not what a husband should be doing, a wife should be doing that stuff so the man doesn't have to. But you find this mentality less and less likely the younger you get in generations...as a whole..that is.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

I'm a big proponent of we can't fight for women to be able to have their opinions be known and truly heard while at the same time as bullying all women to think the same however you lost me on all of your examples you gave and slide right into kinda the whole point of the thread.

If your rebuttal of women's complaints relies upon bringing up what you view as the virtues and tribulations of men you've completely lost the point of those women's complaints and now are in the territory of misogyny.

And if I had someone tell me what you say I'd file a complaint on you in a heartbeat. Not because it has to do with men (that would be my own personal opinion on who you are) but that it's very unprofessional for you to do that. Man or woman makes no difference in who the patient is, your gentle reminder should be left to yourself. It reminds me of the person putting an iv in my hand while I was in the hospital delirious with food poisoning admonishing me for flitching at the needle telling me they've got kids who take needles better. Some people's bedside manners need refreshing.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. The machine was not invented to torture anyone and as someone whose entire family has had breast cancer, I still consider it a huge advancement regardless of who invented it. Whether it was a man or woman isn't important.

I realize listening to complaing women is just part of the job but it gets old. I never admonish pts about how they're tolerating or not tolerating their exam. That is a separate issue.
It just seems like so many people find it fun to bash men everywhere they go, like it's just part of their normal conversation and the tone is that men are literally worthless to the world. I have a husband, father, brother and sons. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon to bash them too.

Respect a 2-way street.

ETA: 99% of women that I says this to are completely surprised that men can get breast cancer and they do indeed get mammograms and say, "wow, I didn't know that. Thanks." so no one is reporting it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. The machine was not invented to torture anyone and as someone whose entire family has had breast cancer, I still consider it a huge advancement regardless of who invented it. Whether it was a man or woman isn't important.

I realize listening to complaing women is just part of the job but it gets old. I never admonish pts about how they're tolerating or not tolerating their exam. That is a separate issue.
It just seems like so many people find it fun to bash men everywhere they go, like it's just part of their normal conversation and the tone is that men are literally worthless to the world. I have a husband, father, brother and sons. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon to bash them too.

Respect a 2-way street.

You're the tech in the appointment. Hardly about respect being a 2-way street. One would think you could find a way to provide even a modicum of comfort to the individuals getting the procedure without doing what you're doing. At least when you're talking to people out and about they can ignore you, walk away, etc but when they are there for a medical procedure they aren't able to do that. And now you've potentially made an uncomfortable procedure even worse simply because you couldn't keep your personal life out of it and in the most ironic way as your way of doing it is to spar with them on the merits of men like go do that in your personal life where people have more choice in listening to what you're going on about.

And note that I use individuals purposefully as it is irrespective of someone's gender identity.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

At least when you're talking to people out and about they can ignore you, walk away, etc but when they are there for a medical procedure they aren't able to do that. And now you've potentially made an uncomfortable procedure even worse simply because you couldn't keep your personal life out of it and in the most ironic way as your way of doing it is to spar with them on the merits of men like go do that in your personal life where people have more choice in listening to what you're going on about.

I am not the one that brings up the topic of the conversation and just as equally, I can't just walk away either and have no choice in what I'm listening to. I don't bring up my personal life at all. Where did you get that?
Next time you get a mammogram, tell the tech that it must have been invented by a man and see what she says. What answer would you think is proper?

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

When I say respect is a 2-way street, I'm talking about between men and women. Some women don't give it at all, yet still demand it in return, whether it's deserved or not.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I am not the one that brings up the topic of the conversation and just as equally, I can't just walk away either and have no choice in what I'm listening to. I don't bring up my personal life at all. Where did you get that?
Next time you get a mammogram, tell the tech that it must have been invented by a man and see what she says. What answer would you think is proper?

When I say respect is a 2-way street, I'm talking about between men and women. Some women don't give it at all, yet still demand it in return, whether it's deserved or not.

I'm not telling you to not think the way you think, I may not agree with it and do think it's the same as what you're trying to fight against (i.e. you're doing the exact same thing just switch the target) but I'm saying you're being unprofessional and think because you think the way you think it's okay to do what you're doing all in the name of whatever it is you're trying to accomplish.

You do bring your personal life to it you've expressed now in various ways how you feel about women speaking a certain way about men and thus you feel the need to remind them, during the medical appointment, about inventions by men, medical procedures men do, etc. If you can no longer be professional step away from that role, blunt as that may be the patients aren't verbally abusing you, they aren't harrassing you from what you've said (which would mean they the patient are now in danger of being barred from that particular facility). They are in all likelihood trying to find some way to deal with the procedure in the moment nor should you take it that they are practicing misandry. You've decided you're no longer able to "zip it" based on your personal feelings, that's your sign you need to move on to a different role or refresh your bedside manner if you stay.

Feel free to discuss what you want to people but do it in the environment appropriate for it and with appropriate people. A patient in the middle of a mammogram appointment is neither of those.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Our own life experiences are part of how we all form opinions and they also form our own biases, whether we recognize them or not. It’s just a fact of life.

Misandry is not the solution to misogyny though it appears that you defend it and would expect me to shut up and join them.
I actually prefer conversation to be about fun summer plans and letting pts rave about their grandchildren.

You know nothing about my bedside manner other than the tiny snippet of my day that I mentioned.
You know nothing of the many, many compliments I receive on a daily basis. We are given a hospital cafeteria meal ticket each time a patient mentions our name specifically in a compliment. I rarely use them so I have stacks of them enough that I could wallpaper a room of my house. I have a drawer full of lovely handwritten letters thanking me.
One pt even sent me a gift voucher for a massage after thanking me for helping to get her through her breast biopsy. Another sent me a crystal vase to thank me after her biopsy. Complaints are extremely rare.

But hey, thanks for the career advice!

 

[ronandannette]

Theres so much I could say about misogyny in every day life, but if it has to be explained and pointed out, then that defeats the argument. If you (the collective you) cant see a problem then you (the collective you) are the problem.

...or, maybe we are not experiencing the world exactly the same way as you. Nobody is denying your subjective reality; why should we have to deny our own?