Do Obama supporters really, truly

[HakunaMatata2]

I stand to gain from Obama's plan IF he actually follows through. I seriously doubt what he says will happen will be the reality put into practice.

That all being said. What I take issue with is the mentality of those that feel that someone owes them something because they are simply gracing this planet with their existence. What ever happened to taking care of yourself and your family to the best of your ability? Whatever happened to pride? I don't want other people taking care of me or my family, they are our responsibility.

IMO, Taxes should be used for the benefit of the community, not the individual. Roads, infastructure, defense. Things that are utilized or benefit the masses that cannot legistically be provided by individuals. As a nation we are stronger putting our resources together for defense, as a state we are connected with one another for commerce and trade by our roads and bridges, as a community we are safer because we have a police force, etc. Anything that is designed to benefit an individual or small group of people should not be paid for out of public coffers.

And I leave you with the following quotes-

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.” Alexander Tytler

“Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.” Author unknown to me

Well said!

 

[chrisw127]

Part of the problem is that a lot of republicans have bought into this right-wing boogie man, this image of a lazy welfare mother who has child after child she can't support and sits on her butt all day. And it's convenient for the party that they do so, because even though most of these people will NEVER need to worry about being taxed under this higher plan because frankly, they don't make enough money, the image of this person who supposedly won't work is the one that guides their decision making. They're being used as pawns, and they don't even know it.

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

Are you really serious?? Overseas bases help to protect us and our allies! We need to be based all around the world so that we can react to things quickly that other countries might do.

It's a redistribution of wealth. My life won't change drastically if every single overseas base was closed. Most poor and working class people's lives wouldn't change one bit. We have a low standard of living now, it can't get too much lower. Those bases are there to protect corporations and the wealthy. Not the working man.

 

[crz4mm2]

Well, I'm not really wealthy and I already 'give' a fair amount of money to those less fortunate than myself. So, I am not really keen on giving away any more of my money...

I ain't going down without a fight.

 

[koalababy]

Do these people really think it's okay?

Yes

 

[chrisw127]

It's a redistribution of wealth. My life won't change drastically if every single overseas base was closed. Most poor and working class people's lives wouldn't change one bit. We have a low standard of living now, it can't get too much lower. Those bases are there to protect corporations and the wealthy. Not the working man.

How ironic that the ones who really suffered economically when a large number of our basese in Germany closed weren't the Americans, but the Germans. Who, incidently, loved complaining about us when we were there.*



*Not to offend any Germans who might be reading--I loved living there. But they were kind of sick of us.

 

[Master Mason]

They're being used as pawns, and they don't even know it.

And the same could be said for many democrats that think the the "evil rich" people are the cause of all their misfortunes and that they are owed things simply because they exist.

It cuts both ways.

 

[Master Mason]

It's a redistribution of wealth. My life won't change drastically if every single overseas base was closed. Most poor and working class people's lives wouldn't change one bit. We have a low standard of living now, it can't get too much lower. Those bases are there to protect corporations and the wealthy. Not the working man.

so, let me get this straight, you honestly believe that we have no vested interest in having those overseas bases to protect or interests?

So, you would have us pack up and leave, as we did after WWI, which allowed for the rise of the Third Riech and caused us to once again have to go over there and lose Thousands of more lifes to put them down??

You honestly believe that our military presence in Japan is not needed to protect our national intrests after we required the Japanesse army to be essentially disbanded?

Those are just a couple of examples.

And since we are in a quoting mood today on the Dis, here is one of my favorites.

"Those that forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them."

 

[Colleen27]

It's not the taxes that I have issue with, its the reason for them and the use of the money collected. And for those that say the rich don't pay enough, you dont think that this 5% of people paying 40% of the tax revenue is enough?

No, I don't. Not when that same top 5% control close to 60% of the nation's wealth. Why shouldn't tax rates be proportional to wealth?

 

[simpilotswife]

Because some of us don't believe in class warfare, if they earned it they should keep it. If I wanted more money I should have made different life choices.

And what if they didn't earn it? How do they earn it? Do you think that CEOs earn their millions of dollars? Do you think that they work harder than some of the poor people who work 3 jobs to feed their families?

 

[Colleen27]

They are still paying the same INCOME tax rates. Besides that, cutting taxes at the high end does NOT take any money from anyone else. It just prevents the government from getting it. Too many people in this country seem to think that someone's income belongs to the government first and then the government decides how much to let you keep.
BD

Cutting taxes for the high end must be made up somewhere. It certainly is taking money from someone else; in recent years, that "someone" is our children and grandchildren, who will face the consequences of a government who can't take the unpopular stand that taxes are necessary.

 

[simpilotswife]

And the same could be said for many democrats that think the the "evil rich" people are the cause of all their misfortunes and that they are owed things simply because they exist.

That would be incorrect. Your statement should say some not many.

 

[akhenaten]

yes i think it is fine to return the tax rate to the level it was under President Clinton....
which is exactly what Senator Obama is proposing!

we have these programs already people it is nothing new and it is not "socialism".........

 

[eliza61]

Bush was not the beginning of trickle down economics. Reagan was and our nation benefitted from his policies for years through the Clinton era.

What Obama is proposing is Trickle Up Poverty.

Another poster hit the nailon the head. Our earnings do not belong to the government first. It should not be about how much the gov't decides we should get to keep. What it should be about is the gov't acting in the communal good to provide large scale defense and infastructure that benefits everyone at the lowest cost to the individual, no matter their income level. Individuals should be free from the gov't to take care of themselves and their loved ones as they are best able and to give, by choice, to whom and in whatever amount they feel so inclined to give for causes they believe in.

I agree, so give me my portion that the government took to bail out AIG, Fannie and Freddie, Iraq and the tax breaks that went to all the oil companies, tobacco industry and computer industry which I work for then shipped the jobs over to Pakistan and I'll gladly support my causes.

let's see in August we lost 84,000 jobs, In september we lost 159,00 jobs so I can really tell all those tax cuts are really helping companies employ more people.

trikle down works no better than trikle up and if they are supposed to be taking care of the infrastructure why are our Public schools almost dead last among industrialized nations and our health care system a joke? I would think good schools and adequate health care would be in the best intrest of the nation.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's rain water. The only thing that tax breaks for the rich do is benefit the rich.

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

so, let me get this straight, you honestly believe that we have no vested interest in having those overseas bases to protect or interests?

So, you would have us pack up and leave, as we did after WWI, which allowed for the rise of the Third Riech and caused us to once again have to go over there and lose Thousands of more lifes to put them down??

You honestly believe that our military presence in Japan is not needed to protect our national intrests after we required the Japanesse army to be essentially disbanded?

Those are just a couple of examples.

And since we are in a quoting mood today on the Dis, here is one of my favorites.

"Those that forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them."

Tell that to a kid with cancer who can't get adequate treatment because his father doesn't have insurance.

 

[sha_lyn]

Umm, to protect us? Because if a bomb hits us, it will hit all of us? That's the main point of government, to provide a defense for the country (as well a a structure for society, and roads and all that good stuff). It's NOT to make everyone's bank account equal, no matter what job they do (or don't do, as the case may be).

not to mention that the US military is a large employer of "the working class" not only of those in the military, but defense contracts, civilian employees on bases etc.

 

[sha_lyn]

Tell that to a kid with cancer who can't get adequate treatment because his father doesn't have insurance.

You mean the kid that would likely already be killed long before he could die from cancer by a war on American soil or in a terrorist attack if we didn't have national a soild national defense?

 

[NVDisMom]

Why large scale defense? Why are you taking my money and paying for the most advance weapons systems? Why are you taking my money and maintaining bases all over the world? Working class and poor people don't need that, yet you are in favor of taking our money to pay for it because you think it is a good idea. That sounds like socialism to me.

Large scale defense benefits everybody, including advanced weapons systems, including the poor. It keeps our nation safe from invasion by those that do not like us. It benfits the poor as much as the rich. Actually, more. Don't more poor people fight as soldiers than rich?

I guess I see things from a way different perspective than most. I guess I don'tthink that children should be punished for their parents inability to find work or do better. I think that many of my neighbors would use the money to buy pampers or clothing. A little boy a few doors down has been really wanting a new coat. So do something about it! Buy them the pampers they need, purchase that little boy a coat. They are your neighbors, not mine. You are in the best position to determine their needs. You can be sure that the parents will not waste your generosity on alcohol, drugs or unnecessary luxury items
I am lucky to have had an education that will help me succeed (even if I don't have the cash). Others are not so lucky. I know I have preached all this before but the education system here sets people up for failure, only the resilient kids can get find a way out. It isn't fair. We can thank the government for that.


Off topic but my proposal would be to take the tax dollars from the wealthy and put them into the education system. We need to centralize funding, make it equal. We need to make an investment into kids at a young age before we are stuck spending our tax dollars to incarcertate them. I think that would be the only way we could end the ongoing social injustice. Giving them money won't help in the long run but neither will just waiting for things to be just. I do not believe more money thrown into the system will address the problem. Choice/Competition is the only thing that can possibly provide better educations to the majority of children. There is no utopic/perfect education syatem. Parents have to be involved with their children, if they aren't there is nothing money can do to help that child. A mentor is going to be their lifeline.

Part of the problem is that a lot of republicans have bought into this right-wing boogie man, this image of a lazy welfare mother who has child after child she can't support and sits on her butt all day. And it's convenient for the party that they do so, because even though most of these people will NEVER need to worry about being taxed under this higher plan because frankly, they don't make enough money, the image of this person who supposedly won't work is the one that guides their decision making. They're being used as pawns, and they don't even know it.

This lazy welfare mom is not a myth, they exist. I personally know some of them. Not every woman on welfare is lazy, not by any stretch of the imagination. But, the system itself encourages the behavior.

My belief that gov't coffers should not be used for an individuals benefit goes beyond the welfare mom, lazy or not. Individual responsibility. Don't rely on others, especially people that are being forced to provide for you, for the things you can provide for yourself. No one is entitled to my money except me, that includes the gov't. Its not a me, me , me mentality. It is a NOT YOU, NOT YOU, NOT YOU mentality. Most of you are pro choice, try applying that same thinking to entitlements. I should get to CHOOSE where the money I EARN goes. Perhaps I will CHOOSE to keep it all to myself (I did earn it, remember) Perhaps I will CHOOSE to buy my neighbors son a coat because he is cold, and then provide a hot meal to the homeless guy on the corner. Perhaps I will give a windfall from my estate at the end of my life to a charitable organization that my beliefs are in line with. The point is, there should be choice.

 

[SteveInBrooklyn]

not to mention that the US military is a large employer of "the working class" not only of those in the military, but defense contracts, civilian employees on bases etc.

Don't forget the corporations that make the deals with the US govt. They certainly have a vested interest in keeping our military as bloated as it is.

 

[Master Mason]

And what if they didn't earn it? How do they earn it? Do you think that CEOs earn their millions of dollars? Do you think that they work harder than some of the poor people who work 3 jobs to feed their families?

They put themselves in a possition to be selected for the Job. They went to school, the worked their way up the ladder, usually working 80 hours a week or more on their way up the ladder.

Do they work any harder than the guy working 3 jobs, I don't know, but they certainly have a different skill set. You can't tell me that the janitor at the school, or the teacher, or the cop on the street has the same knowledge base as the President of GE, or any other major corporation.

I used to have to go to bi annual meetings with the president of Safeway, all the managers would meet in a room and he would start telling us about the state of the company and where it was going etc. Most of the time he was speaking in a completely foriegn language to what the rest of us understood. He was rattling of IBIDA numbers Market share numbers and a host of other things from memory. It's not that I couldn't understand those things, or that I couldn't have memorized them as well, but it is the fact that I had made a choice not to educate myself in that manner or to concern myself with them. He had choosen to do so, and there for was entitled to make what the board of directors was willing to pay him for that knowledge.

As I said, it is about making your life choices to get what's important to you.

And before you tell me that not everyone has those chances, to that I call BS and point you back to your pied piper, who was the mixed race son of a single mom on welfare, but yet here he is a graduate of Columbia, Harvard, and a hairs breath from being the President of the United States. The programs already exisit to to help those that wish to help themselves, we don't need any more of them.