Divorce and the Stay-at-Home-Mom

[lovemygoofy]

I have a question for you. Going back to when you first got married (first marriage) - what were your expectations of your wife back then?

I just wonder if people going into marriage quite young actually think this through very well, especially if they marry prior to completing their education, etc.?

I know that this wasn't directed at me but I thought I'd throw my hat in this conversation. First, we don't even have children so as I've been told I don't have an "excuse" to stay at home.

Prior to getting married, my husband and I talked at length about working mom/wife or not. We had decided due to our transit lifestyle we would always just live off his salary whether I worked or not. It's always been my choice but we do value our family time together more than my salary.

We also discussed the difficulty of being an army spouse and paying myself. From the first day, I deposited money into my own account and my own retirement account. At first it was very little but it was in my own accounts.

When I was working, I would add to the family savings account and feed both our retirement accounts. My husband also has his own account that doesn't have my name on it so it can work both ways.

We talked at length about cheating and repercussions financially from the divorce. We wrote up a note and had it notarized that if we divorced because of cheating, the assets would be divided 75/25. Now we just say it's cheaper to keep her

 

[luvsJack]

How do you define controlling?

Well, its different in different situations.

But, deciding what career path her husband needs to take, choosing where to build a house, the house that is built and when the house should be built; all either without taking his feelings into account or dismissing his feelings when he tries to voice them.

Making most or all of the major decisions, calling it "our" decision when it is really not.

I am not a sahm, haven't been since my adult sons were babies. I don't depend fully on dh, we depend on each other so I am not saying a woman shouldn't have her own career and make her own choices. I just think that there is a happy medium from being totally dependent on a man and "never depend on a man".

 

[ilovejack02]

I am a SAHM and have been for 11 years. While divorce isn't something we discuss and have no plans ever doing it , I do know it could happen even though we have had 20happy years together . We can't predict the future .

I do have an education ,but would not want to use my teaching degree .. I never have. I have no interest in teaching anymore. I would be ok for the first year as I would get spousal support plus child support for a year due to state laws, I would that year to look for work, . Hopefully i would find something quickly so I could then save my spousal support for a rainy day. My DH makes a handsome salary and along with half of his 401 I would have a decent nest egg for future . We have discussed me going back to work now that DS11 is in middle school, but in the last year my husband has gotten an assignment overseas . He will be gone for at least 6 months. Work for me is really out of the question right now . I plan on using this time while he is gone to take some online classes and figure out what I would like to do so I can re enter the work force. My DH and I enjoy our free time together , as he works strange hours. It is great that we have time together during week, while DS is at school. I think this alone time keeps us very connected as a couple.
If God forbid DH passes away or becomes ill and can't work , we will still be ok due to a very large life insurance and disability policy . I pray that nothing like this will ever happen to us , but if divorce or some other disaster occurs , I will be ok for quite awhile, but will need to work at some point . I feel for SAHM and hell anyone going through a divorce or death.

 

[4luv2cdisney]

I have often wondered how stay-at-home moms go about getting divorced. Most SAHM moms I know have not worked in their field of study in a long time, don't have a degree, or have never worked in their degree field. Very few I know worked a long time in their field before staying home. It would be tough not to have a job "to fall back on."

How do they/you do it? It seems even more stressful than a "regular" divorce to me!

I am a SAHM and could not imagine the stress!

I think in those scenarios, it is likely to be most difficult. I think any divorce has large financial consequences. However, contrary to most on here, I've personally seen divorces have a more severe impact on a 2 income family than a 1 income family.

Family 1 (1 income) - Had income of roughly 80K. They lived beneath their means (substantial savings) and were 12 years into their 15 year mortgage. Wife's share of the cash out of the divorce paid off the mortgage and she found a job making around 40K (she has a degree). She and her kids didn't have to move and they live on a similar budget to what they had when married - minus the savings. Husband pays a small amount of support, but his income is still enough to purchase his own home. I imagine things like retirement savings have taken a hit, but overall there has been very little lifestyle change for the kids.

Family 2 (2 incomes) - I don't know what the income was, but it was a 50 / 50 situation. They needed both of those incomes to support their lifestyle (not extravagant, pretty average) and other than retirement accounts they didn't have much savings or equity in their house. They both had to learn to live on half the income they were accustomed to. They are each in a condo / townhouse now. Their kids that had their own rooms are now sharing rooms, they do not have the clothes / electronics they used to and some of their activities have been cut.

I have at least three neighbors who were SAHM who went to work when their husbands had lost jobs / got paycuts. They are all still my neighbors.
OTOH, most of the foreclosures / short sales that have occurred in my neighborhood the last 4 - 5 years have been neighbors who were relying on 2 incomes and 1 was lost or 1 or both experienced paycuts.

I also have several friends that have reentered the workforce, just because that was always in the plan (the kids are all in school now, etc.).

I guess I am just not seeing all these SAHM's losing their chances at future employment because they decided to stay home with the kids for awhile. Nor do I believe that a working parent necessarily has or will always have a good enough job to "self support".

When I was a SAHM I did worry about "what ifs" all the time. I started working again when DH was laid off. He went back to work after only a few weeks and I was just going to quit right away. My youngest was not in school yet, but I decided to keep the job for a little bit to replace the portion of our emergency savings we had used. They let me work part time and the job kept getting better, so I never left. I now have a fairly high hourly wage and a very flexible schedule. We have grown accustomed to my income and if my job ended, 40 hours at a minimum wage job would still leave us with a significant shortage in our current budget. I never completed my college degree. I have plenty of experience, but I know that it may not be enough for some companies. So I worry - just like when I was a SAHM!

I think not having a degree could have more of a negative impact on my future ability to "self support" than choosing to be a SAHM ever will. I am currently trying to put enough money away, so that I can go back to school if/when needed. Admittedly, difficult to do with kids rapidly approaching college age!

 

[DanInMN]

I have a question for you. Going back to when you first got married (first marriage) - what were your expectations of your wife back then?

I just wonder if people going into marriage quite young actually think this through very well, especially if they marry prior to completing their education, etc.?

Both she and I were working throughout our marriage. I was finishing grad school 2 nights a week, and I encouraged her to train for whatever she wanted to do. She took a few classes at the local Community College, but dropped out when she got rid of me.

Remember the saying "give someone a fish and they will eat for a day, or teach them to fish and they will eat for a lifetime"? Like welfare, my funding enabled her to cruise for a few years rather than to help her prepare for life.

She is a low-motivation type person, apparently content to work clerical jobs at a low wage and has not thrived. I work hard at whatever I do... school, work, interests. It was a match made in hell.

Getting married young (age 24) was one of the dumber things I have done!

 

[disykat]

4luv2cdisney's comments are what I've always thought too. It's one thing if you have money coming out of your ears, but when I wasn't working I kept my skills up to the best of my ability and we had the possibility of my income in case of financial need. We always felt much safer that way than if we'd been living on two incomes. The only thing "safer" financially would be both spouses working and banking one of the incomes. Let's face it, unless as I said before, they have money coming out of their ears, many people don't do that.

I must know different SAHMs than others here. The SAHMs I know are people with degrees who have put them on hold. I know teachers, a social worker, an administrative assistant, a counselor, a biologist, a veterinarian, a nurse, a lawyer, etc. All of them dip their toes back in on occasion to keep up their skills and certification, but are simply doing what they feel is more important for their family at the moment. Every SAHM I know is well educated and HAS a back up plan.

Like lovemygoofy said, SAH wives or moms can fund their IRAs and have their own bank accounts, their own credit ratings, etc. It's just a matter of being financially savvy.

Living in a military community, I know many women AND MEN who follow their spouses career and agree going in to be the secondary or non-existent career.

 

[mhsjax]

I have the total opposite view- my mom was ALWAYS there, when I came home from school, there she was. When I got up in the morning, there she was. I just wanted some quiet alone time with no one else home but I never seemed to get that. It caused some conflict as a teenager because I just wanted some time with no one there, no one talking to me or bothering me. I always said I would be sure to give my daughter her space and let her be without being home in her face 24/7.



That is crazy low- for 2 kids here its 25 percent- the guys at work pay about 300-350 a WEEK child support for 2 kids. Plus have to pay a percentage of their college too.

That was the fault of an over doting mother, not a SAHM. My mom was a SAHM, but she had a life and it didn't revolve around mine. I had plenty of space and so did she. Your mom was the mental problem, not the fact that she stayed at home.

 

[mhsjax]

I am a SAHM and have been for 11 years. While divorce isn't something we discuss and have no plans ever doing it , I do know it could happen even though we have had 20happy years together . We can't predict the future .

I do have an education ,but would not want to use my teaching degree .. I never have. I have no interest in teaching anymore. I would be ok for the first year as I would get spousal support plus child support for a year due to state laws, I would that year to look for work, . Hopefully i would find something quickly so I could then save my spousal support for a rainy day. My DH makes a handsome salary and along with half of his 401 I would have a decent nest egg for future . We have discussed me going back to work now that DS11 is in middle school, but in the last year my husband has gotten an assignment overseas . He will be gone for at least 6 months. Work for me is really out of the question right now . I plan on using this time while he is gone to take some online classes and figure out what I would like to do so I can re enter the work force. My DH and I enjoy our free time together , as he works strange hours. It is great that we have time together during week, while DS is at school. I think this alone time keeps us very connected as a couple.
If God forbid DH passes away or becomes ill and can't work , we will still be ok due to a very large life insurance and disability policy . I pray that nothing like this will ever happen to us , but if divorce or some other disaster occurs , I will be ok for quite awhile, but will need to work at some point . I feel for SAHM and hell anyone going through a divorce or death.

This is my thought, I know that you can't plan for divorce, but you can plan for death. My DH jokes all the time that I must love him, becuase I would be much better off financially, if he died. Getting life insurance to care for your loved ones is the responsible thing to do.

 

[Colleen27]

Without reading the whole thread first...

I think it is hard to generalize, and that here on the DIS because we're a generally above-average group in both income and education demographics we tend to see one side more clearly - that of the SAHM who made a career of enabling a high-earning husband to devote himself to his job. And that woman often does have a very hard time in the event of a divorce because she has the worst combination of limited earning potential along with being accustomed to (and raising her children to be accustomed to) a relatively high standard of living. But overall I think there are as many answers as there are women out there, and a million things factor into how difficult divorce is from a financial perspective.

I grew up "poor" - poor in quotations because my mother is an educated woman with a career, albeit in a lower paying field, who always earned a fairly decent wage. But after my father left she felt like we needed her to keep up the home we were accustomed to. So we were very house poor, as she held on to a house purchased on nearly triple her income on a social worker's salary with no child support. And the lesson she always taught in that was never to depend on a man, even a husband.

I, on the other hand, am a long time SAHM. My kids are all school aged now but we still do not have plans for me to reenter the workforce. I freelance a bit and am back in school to expand my skillset to do more in that vein, but have no intention of getting a job. But I could manage more effectively than my mother could if DH lost his mind and left tomorrow, because we've built our married life on the principal of keeping our must-pay expenses low in order to have more "fun money" when times are good and not face crises when times are bad (DH is self-employed, so the ups and downs are inevitable). Either of us could support the household entirely on our own, without the other's help or presence, if we needed to, not because I've spent a lot of money keeping my skills up to date or continued working when I wanted to be home but because we live below our means and don't expand our financial obligations in response to every increase in income.

 

[Colleen27]

I think we are getting to the point where no one should marry or join finances with someone without a legal agreement. I don't know that I would be willing to become a SAHM at this point without one - there is just too little respect for anyone who doesn't earn their own money. Now, instead of splitting sacrifices, it's a "too bad for you" nanner nanner attitude. It just bothers me that people think they can leave a marriage and pretend it didn't happen.

Sadly, I think you're right. The impact of joint decisions is no longer expected to be shared jointly, and that has everything to do with the fact that our society views money as the ultimate determiner of value. Someone who doesn't earn an income contributes nothing and has no tangible worth, and that comes with all sorts of value judgments about intelligence, ambition, and character. So we're okay with a man who uses a SAH spouse to advance his own earnings, even supportive when he complains about alimony, child support, or giving up a share of his retirement accounts, but have nothing but scorn and condemnation for a woman who believes that the joint arrangements she and her spouse made should be honored.

Again with the not being willing to rely on anyone else. What does this mean about marriage? For many of us, marriage is all about relying on each other and being interdependent. As a society, we don't seem to value that anymore which is exactly why legal agreements are becoming so necessary.

I don't think anyone would disagree that it's always good to have back up plans in case your original plan fails, but the lack of respect for people who make different choices than you do is obvious when you start making "free ride" remarks.

My children may choose to have dual income families, or they may choose to have one income families. I'd like the choice to be theirs, not mine, not society's.

Staying at home is a fine choice, and if my daughters choose it, I'll be perfectly happy for them -- as long as they have a degree and keep their job skills current so that they have the option of re-entering the work world if they want to do so, or if their circumstances dictate that they need to do so.

You're contradicting yourself. You say staying home is a fine choice, but only within conditions that are essentially impossible. Even a few months out of the workforce following a lay-off is enough to severely hinder one's ability to find work, and an old degree with a years-long gap on the resume isn't going to open any doors these days.

Again, this is from the divorces of yesteryear. Judges expect women today to support themselves in most instances. Most divorced women I know lose their house and health insurance in pretty quick form.

I think you're right. I don't know anyone who has qualified for alimony in my generation. The conditions under which it is awarded these days are so limited that it is very rare, and it certainly isn't something even a long-time SAHM should count on.

 

[joviroxx]

Again, this is from the divorces of yesteryear. Judges expect women today to support themselves in most instances. Most divorced women I know lose their house and health insurance in pretty quick form.

I think you're right. I don't know anyone who has qualified for alimony in my generation. The conditions under which it is awarded these days are so limited that it is very rare, and it certainly isn't something even a long-time SAHM should count on.

Not necessarily. Again, friend of mine, married and SAHM for 27 years, 2 kids still live at home, in private school. She is getting permanent alimony, he will pay 1/2 the tuition for both. She is keeping the house, paying mortgage with her alimony, but his name stays on the mortgage until the kids are out. At that point, she can sell or refinance. He is keeping the 401K (same value as equity on the house)

She did find a part time job and it will be tight, but after a long term marriage where he just up and decides he's leaving for a 30 year old chick, my friend,at least, won't have to uproot herself or her kids.

Alimony is tough for shorter term marriages, but for long term marriage, you can still find it. But each situation is different and sometimes there just isn't enough money to maintain two households.

 

[Colleen27]

Does it happen sometimes? Of course, everything happens occasionally. But divorcing husbands get good attorneys as well. They also have the current job and the earning power that far swamps anything a SAHM is going to be able to go out and get after years out of the workforce.

And now there are those charming "men's rights" groups that specialize in fighting child support, alimony, and division of assets. A previous poster hit the nail on the head - from a legal standpoint, the perspective is increasingly that the risks and consequences of leaving the workforce fall entirely to the at-home parent, regardless of any economic advantage the working parent realized from that choice.

I can't help but wonder, as I'm reading everyone's stories and experiences here, what their own backgrounds were as they relate to their own choices. I wonder if people who came from "stable" homes are more likely to put trust in their spouse as far as giving up their own careers and/or earning potential. Because it seems like people who've had a rough road may be less likely to do so. (Not exactly scientific but I do wonder about it.) Anyone care to comment - especially those who are SAHM or SAHD?

My home wasn't stable at all, but the lack of time made a much stronger impression than the lack of money.

I just think that there is a happy medium from being totally dependent on a man and "never depend on a man".

I agree, and I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't call it controlling, but my friends who have bought into that mindset do seem to have a somewhat different view of relationships, very "take it or leave it", career as priority #1. One just broke off her engagement because she had a job opportunity come up in a different city and her fiancée wasn't willing to give up his own job to relocate with her. She was very vocal about not wanting to "cripple her professional future" by tying herself down, even though she still says she loves her fiancée very much. And I think that's fine if you have a passion for your job and genuinely feel that way, but I have to wonder what we're doing to our kids when we raise them to be so afraid of relying upon someone else that they genuinely feel unable to make any sacrifice at all for the sake of a romantic partner.

 

[Disney Doll]

Sadly, I think you're right. The impact of joint decisions is no longer expected to be shared jointly, and that has everything to do with the fact that our society views money as the ultimate determiner of value. Someone who doesn't earn an income contributes nothing and has no tangible worth, and that comes with all sorts of value judgments about intelligence, ambition, and character. So we're okay with a man who uses a SAH spouse to advance his own earnings, even supportive when he complains about alimony, child support, or giving up a share of his retirement accounts, but have nothing but scorn and condemnation for a woman who believes that the joint arrangements she and her spouse made should be honored.

I have no scorn for a SAHM. I have no scorn for a woman who believes that joint arrangements that she and her spouse made should be honored. I happen to agree with you that it's grossly unfair for a woman to give up her career track to stay home, raise a family and support her husbands career track and then be left out in the cold.

But life isn't always fair.

The FACTS are that with a few notable exceptions, if your spouse decides he is sick of the marriage, chances are he is not going to want to support you in the style to which you have become accustomed forever. Yes you may get a few years our of him, but chances are it will come to an end. His 2nd wife will be buzzing in his ear about why he's still sending you so much money and poof!!! You're back in court. And I would assume that if your kids are of an age where they can be reasonably independent, most judges will say "you could go back at least part time".

If your spouse gets sick and can no longer work, or dies, then it doesn't really matter what arrangements the two of you made because one of you is no longer in the position to honor the arrangement even if he wanted to. Disability or life insurance then become your income and eventually they run out.

 

[Christine]

Not necessarily. Again, friend of mine, married and SAHM for 27 years, 2 kids still live at home, in private school. She is getting permanent alimony, he will pay 1/2 the tuition for both. She is keeping the house, paying mortgage with her alimony, but his name stays on the mortgage until the kids are out. At that point, she can sell or refinance. He is keeping the 401K (same value as equity on the house)

She did find a part time job and it will be tight, but after a long term marriage where he just up and decides he's leaving for a 30 year old chick, my friend,at least, won't have to uproot herself or her kids.

Alimony is tough for shorter term marriages, but for long term marriage, you can still find it. But each situation is different and sometimes there just isn't enough money to maintain two households.

You are correct that each situation is different and your example points to a situation where the male partner sounds like he was a high earner.

My SIL *tried* to get a divorce from my BIL about 5 years ago. At that point, two of her kids were out of high school and the youngest was still in. She had worked up until the birth of her third child and had the much better career when it comes to earning potential. She worked for a large insurance company in their IT department. Anyway, after the third child and having problems with the second, she had to quit working. My BIL didn't make much money as a residential electrician. He was able to support them but they had NO extras. For whatever reason that I was not privy to, they hit tough times and she asked for a divorce. They got all the way to court for the separation agreement and the judge told her that he was only awarding her a small stipend for alimony (it was likek $50) for 6 months. I mean, my BIL did not have it and the determinations were made off of his income. The judge was also a little rough with her in the hearing stating that she was an able bodied adult with no small children and she had the 6 months to get herself into a job that paid enough for her to earn a living.

Well, she was unable to do this. Her computer skillset was totally outdated and the company that she worked for had changed so much that what she did there was no longer relavent or even existed as it once did. She couldn't find anything other than retail work.

She ended up staying married for financial reasons, which is what was traditionally done when women were marginalized in our society.

I think that for couples who are low to middle income, a divorce definitely messes up one of them because there just isn't enough money to split to keep the kids' lives as normal as possible.

 

[Disney Doll]

I agree that household income before the divorce impacts the 2 separate household incomes that occur after the divorce.

 

[ilovemk76]

And now there are those charming "men's rights" groups that specialize in fighting child support, alimony, and division of assets. A previous poster hit the nail on the head - from a legal standpoint, the perspective is increasingly that the risks and consequences of leaving the workforce fall entirely to the at-home parent, regardless of any economic advantage the working parent realized from that choice.



My home wasn't stable at all, but the lack of time made a much stronger impression than the lack of money.



I agree, and I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't call it controlling, but my friends who have bought into that mindset do seem to have a somewhat different view of relationships, very "take it or leave it", career as priority #1. One just broke off her engagement because she had a job opportunity come up in a different city and her fiancée wasn't willing to give up his own job to relocate with her. She was very vocal about not wanting to "cripple her professional future" by tying herself down, even though she still says she loves her fiancée very much. And I think that's fine if you have a passion for your job and genuinely feel that way, but I have to wonder what we're doing to our kids when we raise them to be so afraid of relying upon someone else that they genuinely feel unable to make any sacrifice at all for the sake of a romantic partner.

You say how society does not appreciate you yet you condemn another woman for not giving up her job because the MAN would not move. Why did HE not sacrifice (ie move) "for the sake of a romantic partner"?

 

[Colleen27]

You say how society does not appreciate you yet you condemn another woman for not giving up her job because the MAN would not move. Why did HE not sacrifice (ie move) "for the sake of a romantic partner"?

I'm not condemning her, just wondering if she's embraced a worldview that is standing between her and happiness since she often says she wants to settle down, get married, and start a family even as her drive not to depend upon anyone else gets in the way of making those commitments. But as far as him not moving, I'll admit to being more sympathetic to his position... Moving halfway across the country without a job lined up, particularly in this economy, is a big risk and one I can understand not taking for an as-yet unmarried relationship, and his situation was further complicated by being in a profession that requires state licensing. She, on the other hand, had a stable job in her field in the city where they were living and really didn't seem to see the irony in asking/demanding he go along with being entirely dependent upon her, even temporarily, for the sake of her sense of financial/professional well-being.

 

[Disney Doll]

But if he had needed her to move for his job, and she chose not to, would you have been OK with her decision not to move and his decision to still go?

Or would you have said "she should follow him and make their life together."?

 

[NHdisneylover]

You say how society does not appreciate you yet you condemn another woman for not giving up her job because the MAN would not move. Why did HE not sacrifice (ie move) "for the sake of a romantic partner"?

But if he had needed her to move for his job, and she chose not to, would you have been OK with her decision not to move and his decision to still go?

Or would you have said "she should follow him and make their life together."?

As a woman who followed my husband'S career, I will put my view of the situation in.

First off, we WERE married and DH had made that commitment to me before he ever asked me to consider moving for the sake of advancing his career (and, no, for most of the moves it was not a "need" it was a "want, because it will improve things" which is exactly what it sounds like was the case for the woman in the example).

Secondly, my DH never, and I mean NEVER put forth any kind of ultimatum or insisted in anyway that it was either us or his career. I have never, ever, ever felt that he would leave me if I did not want to make a move, or that he would have left me had I wanted to maintain my career, etc. Not ONCE did I have that feeling. In fact, once, he had a very good career prospect somewhere that I really did not want to live, and he did not take it and has never complained about that.

We have always discussed the pros and cons to each of us (and our kids) or the moves, following his career, etc and decided together if it was worth it. NO decision of that caliber is ever made without both of us being onboard. Heck, even when I had anticipated a possible move to New Hampshire a decade ago and told him he got a good offer to take it and he did not have to consult me, he insisted on having the company fly me out to the area and let me really look at it before he signed anything.

I think that is the way it should be for any couple, regardless of WHOSE career you happen to be following; if you end up following one at all. There are a few exceptions (like the military) where once you are in a career you really do NOT have any way to refuse moving around, then I understand that a decision must be discussed and a spouse must be okay with all that moving around (and all those months alone, etc) before the couple gets together. That is a "need" to move issue though, and I think either a man or a woman has as much right to that, and in fact know almost as many men who follow their spouse's military career as women, and in all cases it was a decision made with lots of mutual respect and prior discussion (either prior to joining, or prior to getting seriously involved if one was already in the military).

I guess, what I see, first hand and second hand, being successful is NOT anyone (of either gender) putting a career first; it is people putting the family as a whole first and working together to make that work with the career and the people in the best possible way for that family. Ultimatums or a lack of trust in the partner is rarely the way to succeed at that.

 

[aprilgail2]

I agree, and I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't call it controlling, but my friends who have bought into that mindset do seem to have a somewhat different view of relationships, very "take it or leave it", career as priority #1. One just broke off her engagement because she had a job opportunity come up in a different city and her fiancée wasn't willing to give up his own job to relocate with her. She was very vocal about not wanting to "cripple her professional future" by tying herself down, even though she still says she loves her fiancée very much. And I think that's fine if you have a passion for your job and genuinely feel that way, but I have to wonder what we're doing to our kids when we raise them to be so afraid of relying upon someone else that they genuinely feel unable to make any sacrifice at all for the sake of a romantic partner.

Now if the shoe was on the other foot people would expect her to drop everything and move with her husband though! She will find plenty of other romantic partners and she can follow her dream.