Disney's Dark Kingdom (Complete list on pg 24)

[nytimez]

If we're going to pile on DHS, I'll ad my two Disney Dollars:

In addition to the confusing and haphazard navigation, the park lacks any kind of consistency in theme, showing its evolution as just slapping things together over time.

They really need to step back to the drawing board again, re-envision what they want the park to be, and develop a long-term plan to get there.

Since it's no longer a working studio, the whole Studios concept needs to be looked at from a fresh angle. I would suggest redefining the park as an ode to all forms of entertainment, with the notable sub-divisions of:

• Stage: Broadway-style shows such as TLM and B&tB
• Silver Screen: GMR, a Star Wars land or "Lucasland", more
• Small Screen: ToT, Muppets 3D, attractions/exhibits focusing on current shows
• Animation: I'd break this into three subsets -- 1) classic animation (a real "toontown"), 2) Disney XD/Jr, 3) Pixar Place
• Radio: AI, RnRC, more

Ideally, related theme attractions should be located together, but existing layout causes problems.

Given unlimited resources, here's what I'd do:

• Relocate the sorcerer's hat outside the gates.
• Build Star Wars Land (SWL) -- re-do the IJ stunt show as something from Star Wars, retheme Backlot Express as the Cantina, add an E-ticket like the proposed "dueling Death Star" coster design from that guy in Virginia, add a Clone Wars themed attraction, and then theme the entire area in Star Wars style. Make the swath from GMR through SWL the "silver screen" zone, relocating the Sunset Boulevard theme to here and adding a couple of new attractions to pay more homage to the film industry.
• Bulldoze the backlot tour, LMA show, and "Streets of America" (move the Osborne lights first, though!). The part adjacent to the new Star Wars land back toward the AI Experience becomes the "Radio" area. Add in new attractions based on the music industry, theme the area based on classic Motown and/or Nashville (note on the latter, despite its current reputation for Country, Nashville was one of the biggest places for Rock&Roll as well). IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, major project to move/renovate RnRC to this zone.
• The remainder of the bulldozed area will be turned over to the Animation section of the park, which will extend through the current Pixar Place. Build a real Toontown and relocate Art of Animation and One Man's Dream back there. Add the proposed Ratatouille and Monsters Inc. attractions (and the Ratatouille restaurant!), as well as a copy of Cars Land. Build the XD/Jr subsection with attractions that make it easy to change the sets/content to reflect current shows while keeping ride systems the same; relocate the PHD (now DJ, I assume) live show here.
• Relocate the TLM show to the old Sunset Boulevard area, which is now Broadway, adding more Broadway-themed attractions and exhibits.
• Starting from ToT through the old Animation Courtyard, you now have the "TV" area. Relocate Muppets 3D and 50sPTC here. Add more exhibits and attractions, again with the concept that set dressing can be changed as shows come and go, while keeping the immersion and integrity of ride systems consistent through the programming changes.

That would take unlimited resources, all right.

 

[Faldred]

That would take unlimited resources, all right.

If you're gonna dream, dream big!

 

[nytimez]

If you're gonna dream, dream big!

The only way theme parks enter my dreams are if, say, Charlize Theron tells me to meet her in one.

 

[Faldred]

On a more serious note, I wouldn't expect all of that to be done at once. The whole Star Wars Land idea, as has been covered before, really does fit nicely in that corner of the park, if you can relocate a few backstage buildings. You have two refurbs (IJSS and BLE) one new E-ticket, maybe put in a Jedi training academy or something in the Sounds Dangerous space, and theme elements... should cost less than the Avatar expansion at DAK, maybe close to the same if you add a D-ticket based on the Clone Wars as well. It's all isolated from the rest of the park, so as long as you provide access to Star Tours during the construction process, you haven't affected capacity.

As the crowds are drawn to SWL, you can shut down Backlot Tour, Streets of America, and LMA, building out the expanded Pixar Place and the rest of the animation section there. (Or, you could do this before SWL. Whichever.)

Again, you have a big expansion opening, while you next close off the old Animation Courtyard. Temporarily extend the Sunset Boulevard theme around the corner up to GMR, setting up the later expansion to the Movie zone. Behind the walls, create the TV zone, (or, as much as you can with RnRC in the way,) including a Muppets 3D move and a connecting path to ToT.

With M3D gone, the are between it and the AI experience can go Nashville.

When that opens, shut down the old Sunset Boulevard (providing access to B&tB and Fantasmic!) to change it over to Broadway, moving the TLM show there as well.

The only real logistic problem are the relocations -- in most cases, they're shows so it's just a matter of building a new theater. Not cheap, but not outrageous. A few restaurants should get moved for consistency and better spacing: 50PTC to TV zone, MM to Broadway zone, ABC Commissary to the depths of hell, and Pizza Planet to Pixar Place. Note there'd also be a new TS restaurant (Ratatouille) and possibly a CS location as well (I like the idea of Skinner selling his Gasteau line of goods at a little "shack" near Ratatouille).

So, not cheap, but do-able. Except for RnRC. That, I'd imagine would be prohibitively expensive. But not moving it would mar the themes. Solution: drop Aerosmith and replace with a property that legitimately ties into "TV", and then it can stay put. If I'm in charge, that's more likely to be Phineas and Ferb's rollercoaster through Danville than it is Hannah Montana.

 

[nytimez]

So, not cheap, but do-able.

I agree with half of that. Not cheap. If you think it's even remotely do-able, however, your dreams are starting to overwhelm reality.

Sorry... but that's the truth.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Perhaps for a trip or two it would be new enough to prompt you to extend but before long you'd be back to a familiar duration with less time spent at the existing parks. Problem is Disney's then left running 5 parks for decades to come, with thousands of added workers on their payroll.

No matter how appealing a new park sounds, it would cause Disney's operating expenses to grow by 20-25% (that's after construction costs.) And none of us can honestly say we would spend 25% more on our vacations year-after-year to justify the added investment.

This is the entire problem that will keep any extra parks from being built in orlando...perhaps ever.

Not just the operating cost...which is off the charts in disney's case...but LABOR!

There is no labor to add parks...and yes, this is the case even with record unemployment in florida.

Disney wages cannot support fulltime adult workers at this point...so knowing that they cannot find enough fresh bodies to fill what they already have...let alone what they would need for a new park expansion.

This is a fundamental problem with disney world...they are actively trying to reduce employee costs...and would have to hire 10000 new employeeds for a new park.

It can't be done.

Any expansion of gates at WDW will have to follow a massive outsourcing or streamlining program. And that will take ten years alone...so lets kill the new park rumors altogether, please?

 

[ASteelersMidget]

As long as muppets 3-D doesn't go away do I don't really care. There are only 6 things in the park i care about.

1) RnRC

2) TZToT

3) TSMM

4) GMR

5) Muppets 3-D

6) the drawing in the animation studio

some of the street shows are funny but it's not a must see its something to do if i have time and if i see one going.

 

[nytimez]

This is the entire problem that will keep any extra parks from being built in orlando...perhaps ever.

Not just the operating cost...which is off the charts in disney's case...but LABOR!

There is no labor to add parks...and yes, this is the case even with record unemployment in florida.

Disney wages cannot support fulltime adult workers at this point...so knowing that they cannot find enough fresh bodies to fill what they already have...let alone what they would need for a new park expansion.

This is a fundamental problem with disney world...they are actively trying to reduce employee costs...and would have to hire 10000 new employeeds for a new park.

It can't be done.

Any expansion of gates at WDW will have to follow a massive outsourcing or streamlining program. And that will take ten years alone...so lets kill the new park rumors altogether, please?

I have a friend who worked in the parks years ago and recently returned. I asked him what's changed. He says "everyone I work with is either in college or fresh out of college."

I jokingly suggested maybe he's just turning into an old fart so now he notices the youngsters more.

Nope, he insisted -- even the managers are "just kids."

 

[OldsDr]

This is the entire problem that will keep any extra parks from being built in orlando...perhaps ever.

Not just the operating cost...which is off the charts in disney's case...but LABOR!

There is no labor to add parks...and yes, this is the case even with record unemployment in florida.

Disney wages cannot support fulltime adult workers at this point...so knowing that they cannot find enough fresh bodies to fill what they already have...let alone what they would need for a new park expansion.

This is a fundamental problem with disney world...they are actively trying to reduce employee costs...and would have to hire 10000 new employeeds for a new park.

It can't be done.

Any expansion of gates at WDW will have to follow a massive outsourcing or streamlining program. And that will take ten years alone...so lets kill the new park rumors altogether, please?

Even outsourcing would not solve the labor issue. Even if you outsource you are still pulling from the same pool of workers in central Florida. he Drink cart guy has to be standing there who is signing his paycheck may change with outsourcing, but he still has to be there.

Unless they replace drink guys and ice cream guys ith vending machines.


I see no need for a fith gate and I agree a fith gate would not bennifit anyone from the consumer to the shareholder for exacly the reasons you state. I just don't see how you can outsource to save labor in this case. look at the valet parking guys, theye are still there just someone else signing their paycheck.

 

[boscfan]

The Hollow: Headless Horseman's last ride, Nightmare b4 xmas, Boogey Manor
Villian Ville: Hoppers (Dumbo), Its good to be bad(dark/singing), Oswald's Revenge???

I wonder if this refers to Oswald the lucky rabbit? The Character that Mickey was spawned from.

 

[tjkraz]

I wonder if this refers to Oswald the lucky rabbit? The Character that Mickey was spawned from.

I'm sure it does...in whatever fanboy's fantasy this project exists.

Disney may have had a fifth park in some advanced stages of development. But if so it was before 9/11/01. The rights to Oswald were only re-acquired 5 years ago and Disney has spent exactly zero resources on a "Dark Kingdom" concept since then.

Michael Eisner might have found a reason for a fifth theme park. Say what you will about his handling of animation and other facets of the company, but Walt Disney World benefited greatly from his enormous ego and knee-jerk responses to the competition. Eisner also happened to like the theme park side of the business while I sense Bob Iger barely tolerates it.

If Iger--or many other number-crunching execs--were in charge 15 years ago, we wouldn't even have Disney's Animal Kingdom today. No chance.

 

[Dfan79]

it makes perfect sense since he was in the game Kingdom Hearts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_the_Lucky_Rabbit

 

[Faldred]

it makes perfect sense since he was in the game Kingdom Hearts.

I don't remember Oswald in Kingdom Hearts, but he does feature prominently in Epic Mickey,

 

[fannatic]

I don't understand where the anti-5th park people think that the attendance increases are going to come from. Sure, Avatar will help some, but they're not going to see attendance rise to pre911 numbers until they make a major investment and that means a new park. Most of the paying public aren't like Disney Dweebs, they won't come to see the same old attractions over and over again. In fact, I have a friend who is a major Disney Freak and has all but given up on WDW, because of their lack of expansions. I'm sure that no one on the boards can say with absolute certainty that they don't have a 5th gate planned. However, I'm willing to guess that there is one in active development for sometime within the next 10 years. I've found over the years that when there's smoke there's usually a fire with Disney rumors.

 

[tjkraz]

I don't understand where the anti-5th park people think that the attendance increases are going to come from. Sure, Avatar will help some, but they're not going to see attendance rise to pre911 numbers until they make a major investment and that means a new park.

Attendance has already well exceeded pre-9/11 numbers.

According to Amusement Business magazine, the 4 WDW parks had attendance of 43.2 million in 2000.

For 2010 the Themed Entertainment Association has WDW attendance at 47.1 million.

Excepting 2010 when WDW's overall numbers dropped a bit, they've been on a steady increase for the past decade. Small attendance increases combined with higher prices get Disney where it wants to be.

We've discussed this over and over again but the bottom line is a 5th theme park wouldn't instantly add 6 million additional guests (or whatever number you choose) to the bottom line. What happened with Disney's Animal Kingdom is most guests took vacations of the same duration and simply shifted their park days to DAK from other parks.

Sure a flashy new park opening may draw some additional business and/or prompt some guests to extend their trips. But that park costs $3-4 BILLION dollars to open, and any positive effect is short lived. Within 1-2 years, whatever attendance "gains" were reflected by the new park would be lost by the other WDW gates.

Most of the paying public aren't like Disney Dweebs, they won't come to see the same old attractions over and over again.

Actually the guest population at Walt Disney World is heavily slanted toward the occasional guest. Most people who go to WDW are not "Disney Dweebs" as you so tactfully put it, but that works in Disney's favor.

The average guest tends to be someone who is taking the "once in a lifetime" trip or who goes 5+ years between trips. As such, even with moderate attraction growth, this group will still find plenty of new attractions to enjoy.

In fact, I have a friend who is a major Disney Freak and has all but given up on WDW, because of their lack of expansions.

I'm sure your friend is not alone. But let's not pretend that he is representative of the majority of the ticket-buying public. Over 47 million people walked through the gates of a WDW park in 2010. For every person like your friend who has outgrown or otherwise tired of WDW, there is a young family of 20-somethings who cannot wait to take their 2 year old on his first trip to the Magic Kingdom.

Sure there are people who tire of what Disney has to offer. Problem is Disney isn't willing to spend $3+ BILLION dollars on a new park just to try and earn some of that business back.

 

[disneyholic family]

how about a marvel comics park focused on thrill rides as the 5th park?

as something to compete with universal..

 

[Faldred]

Disney isn't willing to spend $3+ BILLION dollars on a new park just to try and earn some of that business back.

Agreed -- if they're going to drop that kind of cash, it's going to be because they need the extra capacity, and they're not there yet, nor likely to be there for some time. It's also going to be more than a $3+ billion effort, as they won't proceed with a 5th gate without building additional resorts and DVC units to go with it. Again, they're not going to go there until they're having issues with capacity.

On top of all that, as noted upthread, there's the labor issue. They're literally going to have to import labor into the Orlando area in order to staff a 5th park and additional resorts.

 

[Dfan79]

I don't remember Oswald in Kingdom Hearts, but he does feature prominently in Epic Mickey,

ohhhh whoopsie daisy, I never played either. Are they any good?

 

[Faldred]

ohhhh whoopsie daisy, I never played either. Are they any good?

I really like Kingdom Hearts, but that's also helped by the fact that I like the Final Fantasy series. i haven't played Epic Mickey yet, mostly because my oldest has been monopolizing the Wii with Lego Star Wars for the last few months.

 

[Dfan79]

Good job boscfan, I didn't realize it was Oswald the lucky rabbit. There's some cool vids on youtube about him. Plus one from Epic Mickey with him.


http://www.youtube.com/user/TheScarrend#p/search/18/dKAye1pSiJM