Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[tjkraz]

So respectfully Tim....I guess I'm seeing and experiencing things a tad differently than you.

Fair enough. I must be skimming those comments then.

Just wasn't sure where Sammie was coming from by including those comments in a reply largely directed at me.

 

[javamom]

Because I am a glutton for punishment, I thought that I would throw the 2010 pts charts for Boardwalk into an Excel spreadsheet. It has made me a bit cross-eyed trying to key the pts values in, so I make no guarantees that I didn't flub in somewhere.

Anyway, if you want to use it too, you may. You could always key over mine for your resort, and just use the shell of the sheet.

Or you can just ignore this post, as the ravings of a spreadsheet geek that needs to go to sleep instead.

here is the link

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pp4vFYjVAPv7JYICzpxFBRQ

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I read about 20 pages ago that there might be a mistake in the 2010 points chart. Has this been resolved?

If not, who exactly is everyone complaining to? Their guide? Member services? Thanks

Somehow I missed that Muushka.

What is the possible mistake? Please tell me it's VWL 1 Bedrooms!

 

[DVC Mike]

DVC communications certainly are not the best.

I think pretty much everyone can agree with this.

Still I do think some posters are wildly unfair when they paint DVC management in broad strokes. A couple of days ago you held current management responsible for changes that occurred 10-12 years ago! (stackable washer/dryers, rooms smaller than OKW, plain bathtowels, etc.) Even you have to admit that's a bit extreme. And setting aside the issue of communications, I hope we can agree that current management has done a LOT of very good things for members in recent years.

I feel that there have been more positive changes than negative ones, but others feel differently. I think there's probably a bit more emotion coming from those upset with the points reallocation -- but understandably so.

My sense is that there is actually a rather small number of regulars here who really have a bone to pick with management, but it's also a vocal contingent. And in many cases, the anger seems to be more personal than really based on specific facts or policy changes--almost of the "Jim Lewis ran over my dog" vein.

Well, there is a certain amount of sarcasm about "enhancements" from DVC. A few people do seem outright hostile to Jim Lewis. When I read posts like that, it's fairly obvious what is behind the post; however, it makes it difficult to have a logical conversation on a topic when there is so much negative emotion running through it and behind it. That said, there have been thoughtful, reasonable posts from people on both sides of this issue. I just wish all posts were that way!

 

[DVC Mike]

Honestly, in general, it's those that aren't being too affected by this whole thing whether it's because they have enough points or they have alot more flexibility than some, that just don't get or want to understand why *some* of us are running high on emotions. I've actually seen from a couple posters here over the past few day, a touch of "nah, nah na na nah" attitude towards those of us taking a blow.

And I've seen some posters pretty much chastise some of us for our emotional vents. Actually insinuating that we're dense or something for not reading the fine print---or not paying attention. I can assure u, the majority of us I am sure did. We're entitled to this for pete's sake....this is all brand new and hitting us square in the face. For some, it's affecting the way we have been able to vacation for almost a decade. I think alot of us deserve a few hours, days, weeks whatever to digest all of this.

Yes, I can see how some of the posts that state the points reallocation is perfectly reasonable have come across as having no compassion or care for those that are negatively impacted by the change (i.e., those that typically stay Sun-Thu). I've seen some pretty upset people talking about class action lawsuits, selling their membership, etc. I think that emotion will die down, either to a slow burn or perhaps acceptance. People that are negatively impacted are venting their anger at the change. I accept that.

 

[njmeisje]

I've tried to read the entire thread, but....not possible - WOW.

I have been thinking about this for a few days, and I tend to agree with Chuck. I think the problem stems from DVC lowering the initial buy-in from 230 to 150 and then to 100. Not to mention folks buying 50 point contracts via resale, and staying at that level. I think Disney was hoping folks would buy-in incrementally and did not expect people to remain at these small point levels - occupying rooms for 2-3 days, then moving again, etc. I'm not criticizing that vacation style (NOT AT ALL) , I'm just saying that you can see how this would be financially difficult for a company (any hotel, timeshare) that needs to maximize occupancy.

I suppose I am willing to see these changes over time, so DVC remains viable - I'd like to enjoy my little slice of BCV and HHI for years to come.

PS - tjkraz - your comments have always been thoughtful and helpful to me.... I appreciate your insight.

 

[maminnie]

Quote from Dean - Don't know why it is no longer highlighted. Sorry.

However, this change may be negative enough that DVC no longer makes sense for them. It would be hard for me to envisions a situation where simply this change alone would cause that to be a valid approach but it could be the item that pushed some over the top.

********

Dean: This says it perfectly. The point allocation COUPLED with the reservation policy change, and the waitlist change is absolutely enough for me to believe that DVC is no longer right for our family and I would have seriously considered selling. Combining two contracts to accomplish a week's stay (without moving) is just too hard to manage with these three changes that occurred in the past 6 to 8 months. (I have never had a problem over the years in combining these two contracts.) Without proper and fair notification from DVC about the point reallocation, I borrowed points from 2010 (even letting a family member use some) and now my one contract would be considered undesireable on the resale market.

So now I just have to sit back, keep paying those condo fees on something that no longer works for me and my family and see what happens. Even if I had wanted to hold onto both contracts and travel in 2010, that is messed up too because of the number of points I borrowed for travel in 2009. Proper and fair notification of the point reallocation would have allowed me to make better decisions.

maminnie

EDIT: - I fixed the quote for you - Chuck S

 

[tjkraz]

That said, there have been thoughtful, reasonable posts from people on both sides of this issue. I just wish all posts were that way!

Very true, Mike!

I've seen some pretty upset people talking about class action lawsuits, selling their membership, etc. I think that emotion will die down, either to a slow burn or perhaps acceptance. People that are negatively impacted are venting their anger at the change. I accept that.

I think that's a really great description, particularly the part I bolded. I was pretty shell-shocked the first night I found out about this. But once I had time to truly analyze the situation, things became a lot clearer.

No matter how logical the move may seem, many of us are in varying stages of grief over something that has been lost (...or at least reduced.) You can't necessarily have a rational discussion when you get all of these people in the same room together:

As I've said, I think it's clear that DVC was forced to make this move...and I say that as someone who is definitely impacted in a negative way. Still DVC continues to work for my family. All 4 of us enjoy Walt Disney World and DVC is still the best balance of cost/benefit in terms of the accommodations. I hope most people are able to make peace with their DVC future--whatever path they decide to follow.

 

[LVSWL]

Well, after several days of trying to read through this thread, I just want to say that my heart really goes out to those that are struggling with this change. DVC has been such a blessing for our family over the years. From the moment that we purchased in 2002 we have spent countless hours planning our multiple yearly vacations and then anticipating them. While our vacation habits have changed some over the last 6 years, as our kids have grown and gone from year round schools to high school, this present change will make us have to look at our vacations in a new light again. It also will change those thoughts that we had about how we might travel when the kids were out of the house and we would go down together. I frankly am shocked at the lack of compassion I have seen on this thread recently. We are all DVC members, who bought in, and bought what we felt like were enough points to travel when "we thought that we would travel the most" whatever season it was and whether it was a weekend or not. Berating other members just seems mean to me. Anyway, like I said, my heart really aches for those who are trying to sort out what to do, who have plans that are put on hold now. If you are like our family, your trips to WDW and the planning and anticipation of those trips mean a lot to you so I know how upsetting this can be. Hopefully we will all figure out a way to weather this.

 

[keishashadow]

Well, there is a certain amount of sarcasm about "enhancements" from DVC. A few people do seem outright hostile to Jim Lewis. When I read posts like that, it's fairly obvious what is behind the post; however, it makes it difficult to have a logical conversation on a topic when there is so much negative emotion running through it and behind it. That said, there have been thoughtful, reasonable posts from people on both sides of this issue. I just wish all posts were that way!

not a direct flame to u, yet imo one person's idea of an enhancement can easily be another's detraction to an already stellar product.

one cannot assume to know how people feel about change to anything, let alone DVC; nor fairly chastize them for the same. Emotions tend to run high when people care so much about something.

i thought this board was supposed to be informational & a respectful exchange of ideas/opinions. Everybody is not going to be on the same page...if we were it would be a boring read indeed

fact that i don't like many of the changes under Mr Lewis' helm (yet think others - DP, BLT & AKV r fantastic) doesn't make me hostile (@ least not towards him ) i'll cop to 'conflicted & confused' as im not sure what ur getting @ re 'fairly obvious' post?

perhaps, just wondering if anybody has contacted MS & gotten anything other than a standard reply?

 

[KLR-wlv]

Well, after several days of trying to read through this thread, I just want to say that my heart really goes out to those that are struggling with this change. DVC has been such a blessing for our family over the years. From the moment that we purchased in 2002 we have spent countless hours planning our multiple yearly vacations and then anticipating them. While our vacation habits have changed some over the last 6 years, as our kids have grown and gone from year round schools to high school, this present change will make us have to look at our vacations in a new light again. It also will change those thoughts that we had about how we might travel when the kids were out of the house and we would go down together. I frankly am shocked at the lack of compassion I have seen on this thread recently. We are all DVC members, who bought in, and bought what we felt like were enough points to travel when "we thought that we would travel the most" whatever season it was and whether it was a weekend or not. Berating other members just seems mean to me. Anyway, like I said, my heart really aches for those who are trying to sort out what to do, who have plans that are put on hold now. If you are like our family, your trips to WDW and the planning and anticipation of those trips mean a lot to you so I know how upsetting this can be. Hopefully we will all figure out a way to weather this.

Thanks for your very kind post. I think this is a hard thing to swallow due to everything else happening with world and the economy - stocks and 401ks depreciating - and now our vacations too! Planning is almost half the fun, and this change just throws a monkey wrench in the works which is frustrating.

 

[MiaSRN62]

njmeisje : I think the problem stems from DVC lowering the initial buy-in from 230 to 150 and then to 100. Not to mention folks buying 50 point contracts via resale, and staying at that level. I think Disney was hoping folks would buy-in incrementally and did not expect people to remain at these small point levels - occupying rooms for 2-3 days, then moving again, etc. I'm not criticizing that vacation style (NOT AT ALL) , I'm just saying that you can see how this would be financially difficult for a company (any hotel, timeshare) that needs to maximize occupancy.

So I suppose I'm still confused with how this new allocation is going to help to occupy so many more rooms ? Because I'm looking at polls that are saying a huge chunk of people are decreasing their stays or the amount of days they stay. Some are saying will go every other year or even every 3rd year....some are dropping 1-3+ days every year. So how is this helping occupancy rates ? I honestly don't get it. The only thing I can come up with, is perhaps DVC is hoping to push people into seasons with low occupancies. IOW, some Members will shy away from the Magic and Dream season points and get gently pushed into Adventure and Choice ? If not this, I don't know. As I said, this allocation certainly is NOT going to push any measurable amount of the Sun-Thurs crowd into weekend stays. I could see requests for smaller units going up across the board ?

With DVC raising the points, it's making it harder for ALOT of Members to continue to maintain the length and amount of stays they have been. And sure, I "get" that it opens up reservations for some who might not have been able to stay prior to the allocation. But I feel rarely is DVC sold out. Almost on a regular basis, there is vacancy at SSR or OKW. So how big a problem was it with people not able to get rooms I wonder except for very high occupancy times (i.e. early Dec, holidays).
I'm not trying to be argumentative or debate....I'm simply trying to figure this out ?

I've seen some pretty upset people talking about class action lawsuits, selling their membership, etc. I think that emotion will die down, either to a slow burn or perhaps acceptance. People that are negatively impacted are venting their anger at the change. I accept that.

I agree Mike...it will die down. I have stated repeatedly, that people who are impacted ---especially those left with a rather large deficit of points----need time to digest and process it all. Some of the snarky remarks made by some, were done at the worst time to those of us who are going through this. Come on....when someone is feeling down, someone else is gonna kick sand in their face ?

I said to someone else here on DIS on another thread, some of the remarks I've read directed at me and others were like putting salt in an open wound. I fully believe, overall, most of us will accept the allocation and adjust. I do think there is a smaller percentage that will want to get out all together. I have a feeling DVC lost a good amount of add-ons and positive word-of-mouth from some of us as well. It's like saying to DVC : fool me once...shame on you.....fool me twice......

There have just been alot of changes in a relatively short amount of time at a very bad time in our economy. Perhaps if the economy weren't as bad as it is, people might swallow this pill a bit easier. But a large percentage of this country feels like we're just losing so much and struggling much more than we have in past years.....so poor timing on DVC's part for some of these changes.

Anyway, like I said, my heart really aches for those who are trying to sort out what to do, who have plans that are put on hold now. If you are like our family, your trips to WDW and the planning and anticipation of those trips mean a lot to you so I know how upsetting this can be. Hopefully we will all figure out a way to weather this.

Nice of you to say this LVSWL.....it means alot to me and I'm sure others who are having a bit of a rough go right now......

 

[Starr W.]

Wow, I thought the tone of this thread was rather unsnarky(I have a high tolerance for snarkiness) compared to the discussion on the change in reservation thread.

In the long run, I'll deal with the changes as it hasn't really impacted me that much. My VB Easter week will cost me 3 more points(and I really should go EOY, but I'll just probably borrowing and keep going EY) and our Thanksgiving trip at SSR stayed the same! Ran the numbers multiple times between DH and myself and came up with the same # of points needed for 2010 as 2008.


But I do find it amusing that some who went ballistic on the change in the reservation format are very calm with the point allocation.

 

[bobbiwoz]

...

perhaps, just wondering if anybody has contacted MS & gotten anything other than a standard reply?

I haven't even gotten a standard reply...well, just the initial one that says "Thank you!, we'll get to your concerns withing 3 business days."
Bobbi

 

[tjkraz]

How about a little discussion of the positive aspects of this move?

I think the most immediate result will be a dramatic improvement in availability at all resorts. For years now it has been getting harder and harder to book outside of one's Home resort. Before the booking change, people were calling day-by-day out of fear of being blocked by hundreds of others trying to get the same dates.

This phenomenon has most often been attributed to things like a change in booking patterns by members (calling much earlier than they had previously) or "those SSR owners" booking other resorts at 7 months.

This reallocation sheds new light on the situation. The movement of points suggests that perhaps the biggest change which occurred in recent years was more and more people buying points for weekday use. One of the primary reasons for folks being unable to get reservations is excessive demand for the same Sun - Thurs periods...with a disproportionately small number willing to use their points for weekends.

Come 2010 we should see an immediate positive impact on resort availability--both in that 11-8 month priority window and at 7 months.

We should also see greater success of short notice bookings.

 

[bobbiwoz]

So I suppose I'm still confused with how this new allocation is going to help to occupy so many more rooms ? Because I'm looking at polls that are saying a huge chunk of people are decreasing their stays or the amount of days they stay. Some are saying will go every other year or even every 3rd year....some are dropping 1-3+ days every year. So how is this helping occupancy rates ? I honestly don't get it. The only thing I can come up with, is perhaps DVC is hoping to push people into seasons with low occupancies. IOW, some Members will shy away from the Magic and Dream season points and get gently pushed into Adventure and Choice ? If not this, I don't know. As I said, this allocation certainly is NOT going to push any measurable amount of the Sun-Thurs crowd into weekend stays. I could see requests for smaller units going up across the board ?

..

Well, for us, it means I can ask my DSis to come for the Marathon weekend at VWL. We'll have a 2 bedroom...our UY is March...so it's still in '09 UY. I didn't have enough to borrow VWL to borrow for both the 2 bedroom stay, which includes 2 weekend + 2 weekday days...for a 4 nights stay, as well as have my DSis stay. Now, I can invite DS for a 3 night VWL studio stay...Thursday to Sunday morning. She's going to run in the Family run with DH. Without the change, I couldn't have DS with us. That's just the start... but yes, it's helping us, right from the get-go. Now, the BC/VB...that's another story altogether, but we've already had our Group Hug!

Bobbi

 

[MELSMICE]

Wow, I thought the tone of this thread was rather unsnarky(I have a high tolerance for snarkiness) compared to the discussion on the change in reservation thread.

What is the change in the reservation system? I am having a hard time finding time to keep up with everything right now. Can someone direct me to this thread?

 

[photobob]

I will say that though I am really unhappy with the change, I am still very happy to be a DVC member. I do appreciate those who aren't impacted negatively understanding those of us who are. The reason I am upset is that it means I can stay there as long and I love going! Since I can't afford an add-on at this time I'll just have to adjust my future planning. I may have to get a 1BDR instead of a 2bdr or get a studio instead of a 1bdr. and I'll still have a great time!

 

[Muushka]

DVC has a Satisfaction Team, you can send them an Email. The address is: DVCMEMBERSATISFACTIONTEAM@DISNEYVACATIONCLUB.COM
Not that they will do anything, but the more formal complaints/comments they get, the more that they will realize there is a problem with part of the group that "bought a piece of the magic".

Thank you!

Somehow I missed that Muushka.

What is the possible mistake? Please tell me it's VWL 1 Bedrooms!

That would be nice. I didn't read the entire thread, but many pages ago a few people talked about a possible error with the 2010 point schedule. Has this been addressed yet?

How about a little discussion of the positive aspects of this move?

I think the most immediate result will be a dramatic improvement in availability at all resorts. For years now it has been getting harder and harder to book outside of one's Home resort. Before the booking change, people were calling day-by-day out of fear of being blocked by hundreds of others trying to get the same dates.

This phenomenon has most often been attributed to things like a change in booking patterns by members (calling much earlier than they had previously) or "those SSR owners" booking other resorts at 7 months.

This reallocation sheds new light on the situation. The movement of points suggests that perhaps the biggest change which occurred in recent years was more and more people buying points for weekday use. One of the primary reasons for folks being unable to get reservations is excessive demand for the same Sun - Thurs periods...with a disproportionately small number willing to use their points for weekends.

Come 2010 we should see an immediate positive impact on resort availability--both in that 11-8 month priority window and at 7 months.

We should also see greater success of short notice bookings.

While I admire your attempt to find the bright side, it is a reminder for me of why it is not good. Being the dope that bought at VWL for early December, I imagine that between myself not using as many days there in a 1 BR as well as other VWL owners, there probably won't be any problem for non-owners to get a 1 BR now.

I may as well own points at HH or Vero.

 

[tjkraz]

So I suppose I'm still confused with how this new allocation is going to help to occupy so many more rooms ? Because I'm looking at polls that are saying a huge chunk of people are decreasing their stays or the amount of days they stay. Some are saying will go every other year or even every 3rd year....some are dropping 1-3+ days every year. So how is this helping occupancy rates ? I honestly don't get it. The only thing I can come up with, is perhaps DVC is hoping to push people into seasons with low occupancies. IOW, some Members will shy away from the Magic and Dream season points and get gently pushed into Adventure and Choice ? If not this, I don't know. As I said, this allocation certainly is NOT going to push any measurable amount of the Sun-Thurs crowd into weekend stays. I could see requests for smaller units going up across the board ?

First I'll say that this really IS a difficult thing to explain--unless someone smarter than me can come up with a more simplistic manner. But I'll give it a shot.

The statement I bolded above in your quote is the most significant one of all. The entire purpose of the point chart is to balance supply with demand. DVC isn't doing this out of some selfish need--they are doing it for the benefit of the membership.

The entire idea behind DVC is that the resorts be at 100% occupancy every single day of the year. (Some points are withheld for maintenance, but I'm going to ignore that fact for the purposes of this discussion.)

Really take a moment to think about that 100% occupancy. If you eliminate banking and borrowing, that means the ONLY WAY for every owner to use his/her points is for a resort to be full every night of the year. Every room---every night! All 800+ rooms at SSR would have to be filled 365 days / year. All 400+ rooms at the BoardWalk, and so on.

So whenever there is a room that does NOT contain a guest, it means someone is not using their points. If a single SSR Grand Villa sits empty on a Fri/Sat in Magic season, that is 234 unused DVC points for that single room (under the old/current charts.) If there are 10 empty Savanna View 2Bs on a weekend during Dream season, that's 1400 unused points!

...and so on.

Now there are some reasons why rooms could sit empty. The banking/borrowing rules mean that some of the points may have been banked into the next Use year. But ideally you want those numbers to be close to balancing out. When the total number of points banked and borrowed is similar, again there should be ZERO VACANCIES.

If there is an imbalance in favor of banked points, we have a problem. Let's say that in 2006 there were 2 million points borrowed and 4 million banked. No good. That means 2007 has more points than it can reasonably accommodate. And if the same disparity occurs in 2007, 2008 and so on, we're really headed for trouble.

DVC doesn't disclose any data so it's hard to put real numbers to that. But I'm just circling around to the point that every room should be filled every night of the year.

Another way that rooms could sit empty is if people allow points to expire unused. I'm sure that does happen--but it should cause us to question the "why." Did the points go unused out of apathy? (Some do.) Or was it because the member wasn't able to find a reservation which fit their travel needs? If so, that's another red flag.

People can also trade their points out to DCL, RCI, etc. In those cases rooms are handed-over to CRO. I'm sure that some of the vacancies are CRO rooms. But the rooms available for points bookings should be COMPLETELY booked. No 25% member cash discount. No rooms given to CRO 60 days out under the breakage rules. Zero vacancies. Zilch!

So how do we get to 100% occupancy? We try to balance supply with demand. And that's what the point reallocation does.

Under the old (current) charts, about 60% of the week's points were spread over Sun - Thurs. The other 40% of a weekly point cost was in Fri & Sat. If that is commensurate to demand, members should collectively be using 60% of their points for weekdays and 40% for weekends.

With more and more people buying into DVC as a "bargain vacation", I suspect the scales tilted to the point where something like 75-80% of points were earmarked for weekdays while the weekends were severely under-booked. That sets up a situation where people cannot get the room they want, short notice bookings are impossible, points go unused, members are dissatisfied, etc.

The idea is to find equilibrium. Instead of 60% supply and 80% demand for the weekdays, perhaps things will balance out better at 70% for both supply AND demand. And in DVC terms, the means for increasing supply is to raise the points each night.

Supply and demand...it's all supply and demand. And we members determine the demand...NOT DVC.

Maybe this is even more simplistic: Let's say you own enough points to visit 5 nights per year. The point charts changed and now you can only afford 4 nights per year. That's one night freed-up for someone else who wants to spend points on a weekday. Multiply that one night by the thousands of members similarly effected and what you're doing is creating the capacity to absorb the points that other members have previously been unable to use.

At the same time weekend costs are slashed. Those who visit on the weekends can stretch their points a little further and it will encourage other folks to start visiting on the weekends when they previously would not have done so.

DVC's goal should always be to balance supply with demand to get as close as possible to the 100% year-round occupancy.