Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[StayFLA]

I am not trying to be a or get people riled up, but really this was an excellent business decision on Disney's part.

You aren't a DVC member because you like to go to Disney occasionally, you are a DVC member because you are a HUGE Disney fan, or an addict. It's not like you are going to say "thats it!! Iam done with Disney!!" They have you in the palm of their hand.

They are counting on members buying more points so they can continue coming to Disney. Heck they probably even know most people were going to be angry about it, but all the while they knew you'd have to get over it and find another way to make it work for you.

SO they upped the points, AND are making more money off of DVC'ers because you are going to have to buy more points. How are you going to find 1-25 points to buy?? Well you're (most likely) not! You are going to have to buy bigger add ons. SO now Disney is really putting more money in their pockets.

Oh I am sure they realize a few will try to re-sell their points, but all in all, currents DVC'ers that try to sell are not going to make any money off of that or even break even. And really, there are tons of new people lined up to buy
points that have no idea this happened, as it in no way affects them. Or at least they don't know what "used to be".

So you (DVC'ers) are caught between a rock and a hard place. DO you buy more to add on or do you sell for a loss? Or do you keep them and just go for fewer days?

This sums it up very well along with Tim's posts. Ugly, but neccessary. It does hurt my family, but that is how it works. It's a killer for folks who banked and are 5 points short for a trip, but there are transfers available. Hell, I may need one. I wanted AKV SV this year and went OKW instead and maybe this saved me to allow 2010 December SSR.

Ralph

Ralph

 

[Cindaddy]

I think you're being most generous towards DVC with these comments.

To suggest that they planned the BLT charts 2-3 YEARS ago and just planned the changes to all of the point charts (including BLT) 2 - 4 months ago is a very generous suggestion.

OK - lets say it was 4 months ago - then why would they NOT issue the new BLT points at the start of sales? To suggest that this plan was made less than 4 months ago when for the past 16 years the newly printed point charts have always been in the hands of the members by October certainly indicates that any deviation from that policy was in the works long before sales ever began at BLT and probably before the BLT sales point charts were even printed.

Perhaps some mention of these changes could have been announced at the annual meeting too - unless you're suggesting that the decision was made after early December? DVC has had plenty of opportunity to make these changes in a timely fashion and still get the new charts to members in the fall. In doing so, the BLT charts would have reflected the changes prior to removing the 100 point minimum purchase at that resort. Waiting until reservations are beginning for 2010 is a poor treatment of it's members when there has been plenty of opportunity for timely release of information. The Member website alone allows for opportunity for immediate communication and they certainly also use email for a number of other purposes - why not something as important as a change in the point charts?

I am not disputing the ability and right of DVC to make these changes - I was a member when this happened the first time , but at that time the changes coming for 1996 were sent to the members in September, 1994. I am challenging the timing and poor communication for such a "customer service" oriented company and one that holds itself out as being a notch above - the "DVC Difference".

 

[ekball]

Can someone PLEASE help a newbie out?! I just posted this on another thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysdad747
Am I reading this right, that points are increasing for your stay? I was told when we purchased last month that points would never change, only fluctuate based on holidays and the calendar by a couple days...

Tim

We were told the same thing when we bought! Points would NEVER change. Someone please fill us in here.

From the sound of this thread I'd say someone told us some bad information. What's going on?!?!

 

[Dean]

I just don't see how we can count on the points being any fixed amount now. So just to cover any possible point reallocation, I should - just to be safe -buy enough at every resort for 1 week, in a 2 br - just in case they change it some more to cover our regular vacation habits we've been practicing since dvc's inception. VWL weeknight in a 2 br in premier season went up 7 points a night - 35 extra for a 5 night stay. AN extra 55 points for the VB reservation I have this thanksgiving - so I need an extra 85 points to cover the same 10 nights in 2010. NOT insignificant and NOT what I paid for. So I should just invest another $8000 to get the same trips....

I've made the suggestions a number of times to buy at least a 10% margin unless one bought enough for a 2 BR for a week in at least Magic season.

I think you're being most generous towards DVC with these comments.

To suggest that they planned the BLT charts 2-3 YEARS ago and just planned the changes to all of the point charts (including BLT) 2 - 4 months ago is a very generous suggestion.

OK - lets say it was 4 months ago - then why would they NOT issue the new BLT points at the start of sales? To suggest that this plan was made less than 4 months ago when for the past 16 years the newly printed point charts have always been in the hands of the members by October certainly indicates that any deviation from that policy was in the works long before sales ever began at BLT and probably before the BLT sales point charts were even printed.

Perhaps some mention of these changes could have been announced at the annual meeting too - unless you're suggesting that the decision was made after early December? DVC has had plenty of opportunity to make these changes in a timely fashion and still get the new charts to members in the fall. In doing so, the BLT charts would have reflected the changes prior to removing the 100 point minimum purchase at that resort. Waiting until reservations are beginning for 2010 is a poor treatment of it's members when there has been plenty of opportunity for timely release of information. The Member website alone allows for opportunity for immediate communication and they certainly also use email for a number of other purposes - why not something as important as a change in the point charts?

I am not disputing the ability and right of DVC to make these changes - I was a member when this happened the first time , but at that time the changes coming for 1996 were sent to the members in September, 1994. I am challenging the timing and poor communication for such a "customer service" oriented company and one that holds itself out as being a notch above - the "DVC Difference".

To clarify I said planned around a year and finalized in the last 2-4 months. This was just a guess knowing how these type of things tend to work, you can adjust the timeline proportionally if you desire with the principle that things take time to implement and much has to be approved by the state of FL on the sales side. As for the fact it could have been done and timed better, no argument here, same for two AKV snafu's recently. I guess my real point is what's done is done and the fact they didn't either plan or time it better doesn't change the appropriateness of the overall move. Making the change now would be better than putting it off a year or two else there would be no reason to do it at all. As I noted, getting the change out before the BLT charts became public knowledge and having BLT only be the new structure would have been ideal. My guess is it would have set back sales about 4-6 months minimum reading this issue as I do. In addition, to take these changes as a sign the sky is falling is over reacting. These are things that timeshare do and one of the reasons I've always looked at DVC as just another nice timeshare, different but not better or worse (depending on context) than the Marriott's I own.

 

[RobDoc]

According to the Member wesbite, they still have not finalized anything, but expect to in the next week. However, they still posted the "official" point charts there yesterday and removed them a few hours later with the current excuse du jour.

Poor guest relations, IMO. YMMV.

Sorry to hear that Marriott is no better.

 

[wildernessDad]

Can someone PLEASE help a newbie out?! I just posted this on another thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysdad747
Am I reading this right, that points are increasing for your stay? I was told when we purchased last month that points would never change, only fluctuate based on holidays and the calendar by a couple days...

Tim

We were told the same thing when we bought! Points would NEVER change. Someone please fill us in here.

From the sound of this thread I'd say someone told us some bad information. What's going on?!?!

The TOTAL number of points on the chart cannot change, but they can move points around and could even them all out if they wanted to so that every day costs the same amount of points.

 

[ekball]

The TOTAL number of points on the chart cannot change, but they can move points around and could even them all out if they wanted to so that every day costs the same amount of points.

Hm. Gotcha. And thank you for the explanation. I feel a little better...now I need to go back and see what this change really means.

 

[Tricia1972]

The TOTAL number of points on the chart cannot change, but they can move points around and could even them all out if they wanted to so that every day costs the same amount of points.

That's my understanding as well.

For example, as I understand it, if it would cost 20,000 points to stay in a 1BR at SSR for a year, that will never change. DVC can, however, change how they allocate those 20,000 points for the 1BR at SSR within any given year.

I hope I am understanding, and explaining it, correctly.

 

[twinklebug]

Can someone PLEASE help a newbie out?! I just posted this on another thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tysdad747
Am I reading this right, that points are increasing for your stay? I was told when we purchased last month that points would never change, only fluctuate based on holidays and the calendar by a couple days...

Tim

We were told the same thing when we bought! Points would NEVER change. Someone please fill us in here.

From the sound of this thread I'd say someone told us some bad information. What's going on?!?!

OK, this is bothering me to the point where I dug out my paperwork... it's not just you, there are others saying the same thing. That they were told the points would never increase.

If you look at your Product understanding checklist, which to my knowledge, everyone signed, item number 9 (on my AKV docs at least) regarding the assignment of nightly Vacation Points states:

.... The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular vacation home may change based on seasonal demand. Except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year:

• The total number of Vacation points required to use at all Vacation Homes during each calendar year through January 31, 2057 can never increase.
• If Vacation Points for one specific night increases, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights.

So it's in there. What a person may have told you could certainly have been wrong, but it's also possible some folk heard bullet point #1 above and misconstrued it to mean that the vacation points needed for the vacation dates they want at their desired resort would never change.

 

[ekball]

Maybe. I would argue that, in my case, selling me a number of points based on a point chart that they know is going to change 4 months after the resort opens is, at least, unethical. Many people bought points based on a point chart over the years. If that chart is going to be changed at anytime, that is an improper sales method and the Guide should use another method of calculating points or recommend a cushion to the buyer. My guide told me that the point chart wouldn't change (I knew better thanks to the folks here).

You know, our guide said the same thing. And I DIDN'T know better, silly me I just believed the guide. This is really cr@p in my opinion. In fact, the guide really emphasized how this made DVC such a great deal because the points would never change, while the cost of the resorts on a cash basis would just continue to rise year after year. How can they do that?!?

 

[lugnut33]

As I noted, to me the surprise is that it's took them this long to make changes. It shouldn't have been a surprise IMO. Timeshares change over the years and the protections you have are what's in the legal documents and state statutes. I simply don't get the unfair issue as I think everyone either knew or should have know this was a possibility if not a probability.

As you know, I've been predicting this for some time. It took much longer than I expected because I expected it somewhere around 2001 or 2002. Assuming they got it close to right, this might be the last time (or might not be) unless there are factors that change and thus change the demand such as new festivals or events. I think we're seeing a different DVC now than then. IMO, DVC was overly concerned about member reaction and held back on changes they should have made. That certainly does not seem to be the case now with the changes we've seen lately.

Some are saying the notification was inappropriate but I'd somewhat disagree. DVC cannot and should not put these things out there as a trial balloon to see how members will react. They need to make their decisions (within the legal framework), post them and move on. They will re-evaluate those decisions behind the scenes but should not let reaction or sentiment cause the to back away simply for the reason of avoiding the reaction.

So I also suppose you don't believe that in the last few days DVC sales reps were telling people and selling people contracts that had "just the right amount of points to take a vacation" during a certain time of year? Sure, the sales rep might not have known, but somebody knew this change was coming and it looks really bad on Disney's part.

It really screws people who bought in wanting to take several short trips a year. Can you imagine during the sale presentation that the guide probably said, "oh absolutely you can stay 5 days 3 times a year on those points".

Yeah, everything is nice and legal, it doesn't mean everyone should be jumping around with joy. (and no, this change doesn't affect me, I just think it's terrible for all those that are being affected in the name of shareholder value)

 

[tidefan]

This news is very disappointing. This is impacting the DVC members negatively. The threat of minimum stays being forced upon us will probably be the last straw for me. What a shame. I will take the money from this and buy into a Marriott timeshare.

Well, you'll have a 7-day minimum stay at the Marriott. BTW, they aren't immune to changes either. Numerous people bought b/c they could trade their week for Marriott Reward points for nice trips. Was a major selling point of the program for developer sales (Resales don't have this option, although, IMHO, I didn't think it was a great option to begin with). Well anyway, Marriott just went and changed that too. Research before you jump...

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83687

Or, you could have the situation that we had this year with our Diamond Resorts timeshare where our MF's went up 35%...

 

[Sammie]

But DVCMC has a fiduciary responsibility to act in the best interest of the Condo Association(s) as a whole. You can't use surveys and member feedback to judge whether this reallocation was necessary. If weekend occupancy is a shadow of that during weekdays, something has to change. And unfortunately the only way to lower weekend costs is to raise weekdays.

If that is true, and I will agree it might be, then why always issue the standard phrase that this change is due to member requests.

If they truly are not going to base it on the members wants and as you pointed out maybe that is not in the best interest of DVC and the membership in general then just own up to it.

I could accept the changes alot better if that was the case.

 

[lugnut33]

I've made the suggestions a number of times to buy at least a 10% margin unless one bought enough for a 2 BR for a week in at least Magic season.

.

Hmmm, maybe buying a 10% cushion IS the best kept secret because I never remember hearing that during the sales pitch??

Where did it say, "Minimum point buy is 160 points, but we recommend 16 additional points in case we modify the points, which of course is perfectly legal for DVC to do"?

It's absurd, as absurd as trying to sell me a dead parrot (Monty Python reference)

Dean, you must watch this, it's so perfect. DVC being the pet shop vendor, DVC owners being John Cleese http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

 

[goofygal1975]

So I also suppose you don't believe that in the last few days DVC sales reps were telling people and selling people contracts that had "just the right amount of points to take a vacation" during a certain time of year? Sure, the sales rep might not have known, but somebody knew this change was coming and it looks really bad on Disney's part.

It really screws people who bought in wanting to take several short trips a year. Can you imagine during the sale presentation that the guide probably said, "oh absolutely you can stay 5 days 3 times a year on those points".

Yeah, everything is nice and legal, it doesn't mean everyone should be jumping around with joy. (and no, this change doesn't affect me, I just think it's terrible for all those that are being affected in the name of shareholder value)

We JUST bought BLT YESTERDAY. And my guide told me that he was in a training session that morning and started to say things were interesting. Of course, this was before everyone saw the 2010 point changes and posted it on here, so I didn't know to ask him about it more.

We bought 300 points, just a number we picked that seemed to cover any trips we may want to do in a year. I feel that if they KNEW they were changing the point system, then they should have informed ALL new buyers of this. If everyone says it is legal for them to do this fine, but there should be more notice, especially for people who are just buying! It's just not right to not even be able to use your points yet, and have them changed around. Change it around BEFORE you take my money!

 

[Cindaddy]

You know, our guide said the same thing. And I DIDN'T know better, silly me I just believed the guide. This is really cr@p in my opinion. In fact, the guide really emphasized how this made DVC such a great deal because the points would never change, while the cost of the resorts on a cash basis would just continue to rise year after year. How can they do that?!?

I hear you. It's hard to say. Definately some ethics issues going on. I'm not sure what to think. My contract is going to sit here unsigned.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Edited post because it was confusing (my apologies) :
Well...count me in as disappointed. And I know all about being legal and within Disney's rights....and so on.......

Our usually pattern with our OKW stays are a 2 bedroom/Magic Season/Sun-Thurs = 150 points

I tried every different way I could think to get 5 nights out OKW in a 2 bedroom/Magic season and it's bleak.

According to the new charts (thanks for all that saved and posted), 5 nights would now cost me :

Sun thru Thurs = 180 points (30 points more)
This is signifant to us and our travel patterns. Been Members since 2000. We are losing the equivalent of one night's stay. So the value of our DVC went down for us.


Just bought a 100 point add-on at AKV. We stayed this past August (Magic season) for 3 nights in a 1 bedroom SV for 90 points.

In 2010, at the AKV, this same trip would cost us 12 points more. Yeah it's only 12 points, but it's 12 points we DON'T have because we only bought a 100 point add-on. Our option would be to drop to a standard view---but that is not why we bought AKV.

We probably would have done another add-on at AKV to bring up our points to adjust to the new allocation, but now we missed the Jan 15 deadline and the cost went up for points at AKV. I know my husband won't buy more points there now based on the timing of the price increase and the "convenient" release of the new allocation (for disney that is).

Just seems sort of snarky on Disney's part---to agree with what several others have said.


So we're not talking 3 or 4, or 5 points more.........particularily in the case of OKW, we're talking 30 points more for the exact same stay. So far, I see the allocation forcing us to NOT be able to make additional shorter stays down in WDW. Thus, in turn, less money from us that we would spend on meals/souveniers.......and we may not even buy AP's any longer due to this change. Not to mention, the add-on at BLT we were considering. I don't know....still have to try and work this all out and see how it works for our family and the way we have become accustomed to vacationing for the past 8 years.

I realize DVC probably won't care....or lose any sleep over this. I realize this is in their best interest & within their legal right and will benefit those who mostly do weekend stays. I understand all the arguments for the fairness of the point structure overall. I get all that. But it still has now become a snafu in our DVC vacation world.......and when things start making you unsettled to quote another DIS'er.....then....well......this is just such a drastic change and the timing doesn't seem fair.

 

[Anal Annie]

Here are points charts:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2067216

Thanks! This WILL mess with our 2010 plans a bit. It will require us to somehow "find" an additional 21 points (maybe I can pull them out of my behind) for our tentative 2010 trips. I guess they really ARE tentative now.

Their timing sucks. Ain't no other way to put it.

 

[Chuck S]

I imagine they took the points chart off the website temporarity, stating it was incorrectly posted because they realized the weekly points had gone up on some weeks, and that's not supposed to change even if they reallocate nightly points

Weekly points can change. The 1996 re-allocation at OKW sent studio points from 69 to 80 points per week in Adventure season.

 

[lugnut33]

We JUST bought BLT YESTERDAY. And my guide told me that he was in a training session that morning and started to say things were interesting. Of course, this was before everyone saw the 2010 point changes and posted it on here, so I didn't know to ask him about it more.

We bought 300 points, just a number we picked that seemed to cover any trips we may want to do in a year. I feel that if they KNEW they were changing the point system, then they should have informed ALL new buyers of this. If everyone says it is legal for them to do this fine, but there should be more notice, especially for people who are just buying! It's just not right to not even be able to use your points yet, and have them changed around. Change it around BEFORE you take my money!

I completely and totally 100% agree with you.

Unless you were going to do multiple weekday stays, it probably wont affect you too much, you have plenty of points. Congrats.