Disney Senate investigation

[Barnabe]

You may have misunderstood my post. You are paying more than you know for your frugal ways. Unless you are not paying taxes, UC and welfare payments are an indirect (hidden) cost of "cheap" imports, as are low wage jobs that qualify employees to receive taxpayer subsidized benefts (I.e. food stamps). Nobody on any forums (in my opinion) has ever sucessfully refuted this argument. And NO, I am not a Socialist, and YES, I do own stock in public corporations. No offense intended.

Ok I understand what you're saying, but is paying $3 more for an American made shirt going to reduce my taxes, UC and welfare payments? Or am I correct in assuming that all US citizens would have to buy American made t-shirts for these hidden costs to be reduced?

 

[carmelhp]

Ok I understand what you're saying, but is paying $3 more for an American made shirt going to reduce my taxes, UC and welfare payments? Or am I correct in assuming that all US citizens would have to buy American made t-shirts for these hidden costs to be reduced?

You're right, the whole world is on a race to the bottom and you're along for the ride. Walt Disney was wrong about the community of tomorrow, the community of tomorrow is a slum. His namesake company is working hard to make those slums a reality everywhere.

 

[Castle2Castle]

Do you think that Disney went to HCL to save money in the long term through (a) reduced wages and benefits, or (b) to save money because of the greater productivity of imported Indian workers, while paying them exactly as much as the displaced Americans?

It depends. How many visa workers did HCL provide? You assume above that they provided “a lot”, and it seems like you’re assuming every one of them is doing the exact same job as one of the replaced employees. If that were the case it would be sensible that Disney was purely out to cut costs with reduced wages and benefits. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.

All of the articles say only some of the employees were required to train replacements, and of those it’s not clear that they aren’t consolidating those roles with fewer new workers (i.e. a 7-person team handling the work previously done by a 10-person team). Also, the reports say Disney had a net gain of 70 new tech jobs, and Disney claims the restructuring shifted the IT focus on innovation and new capabilities from 28% to 65%. How does compensation for IT jobs focused on innovation compare to the other roles they’re replacing? How many of the 120 rehired employees and how many of the HCL visa workers got those jobs? With such a shift, it’s possible that some of the new workers are making the same as those they replaced while others are actually making more* (not an option above) for bringing a different skill set to complete the department’s shift toward increased innovation and new capabilities.



*Already mentioned a report from earlier this year supporting a growing skills gap and another report finding it’s not necessarily the case that H-1B visa workers are paid less.

 

[Barnabe]

You're right, the whole world is on a race to the bottom and you're along for the ride. Walt Disney was wrong about the community of tomorrow, the community of tomorrow is a slum. His namesake company is working hard to make those slums a reality everywhere.

OK , I guess paying $3 less for a t-shirt is going to cause this race to the slum? I'm sorry that my opinions have upset you, that was not my intent.

You say the Disney company is working hard to create slums everywhere, so are you still visiting Disney parks and going to Disney movies?

 

[carmelhp]

OK , I guess paying $3 less for a t-shirt is going to cause this race to the slum? I'm sorry that my opinions have upset you, that was not my intent.

You say the Disney company is working hard to create slums everywhere, so are you still visiting Disney parks and going to Disney movies?

I'm not upset by your opinions, I said you were right. In fact, we're all along for the ride. Do you buy just one T-shirt ever and always? Of course not, but the cumulative effect of everyone, everywhere trying to beggar their neighbor is the slum as the end result. Cheap textile imports by U.S. companies doing business with countries where slave labor, child labor, and a host of other evils are tolerated destroyed the U.S. textile industry. With TDO's accelerating cut-throat approach to business in general, and their customers and employees in particular, I will have a hard time giving them more of my money.

 

[Castle2Castle]

Of course not, but the cumulative effect of everyone, everywhere trying to beggar their neighbor is the slum as the end result.

There's quite a bit of historical precedent and economic analysis that would beg to differ on that assessment.

 

[carmelhp]

There's quite a bit of historical precedent and economic analysis that would beg to differ on that assessment.

You can believe that, but you'd be wrong.

 

[Barnabe]

I'm not upset by your opinions, I said you were right. In fact, we're all along for the ride. Do you buy just one T-shirt ever and always? Of course not, but the cumulative effect of everyone, everywhere trying to beggar their neighbor is the slum as the end result. Cheap textile imports by U.S. companies doing business with countries where slave labor, child labor, and a host of other evils are tolerated destroyed the U.S. textile industry. With TDO's accelerating cut-throat approach to business in general, and their customers and employees in particular, I will have a hard time giving them more of my money.

I hear you loud and clear, but I think true reform would have to take place starting at the top. Why is it acceptable for CEO's to earn $43 million? But there is hope :

nypost.com/2015/04/.../ceo-cuts-his-pay-so-every-worker-can-earn-70k/

 

[carmelhp]

I hear you loud and clear, but I think true reform would have to take place starting at the top. Why is it acceptable for CEO's to earn $43 million? But there is hope :

nypost.com/2015/04/.../ceo-cuts-his-pay-so-every-worker-can-earn-70k/

I don't disagree.

 

[Castle2Castle]

You can believe that, but you'd be wrong.

Well, the natural state of humans is one of abject poverty, one worse than slum conditions that exist in parts of the world today. It's not by coincidence that as the world has increased integration and trade that more people have been lifted from those conditions.

 

[7series]

So, the people who pass the laws that make outsourcing attractive, or even necessary, want to look into companies who do it as though they are doing something wrong or unexpected. And the cycle of corruption goes merrily on.

 

[rwdavis2]

I do want Disney to be fully compliant, and investigation is warranted. But we have all been complaining about the Disney website and app for years. Perhaps they couldn't find enough of the right tech workers. Why would Disney go through the visa paperwork and potential bad press if they could get the work done with the current crew? Time will tell.

The problem is that Disney is not willing to pay their IT workers enough to hire and retain competent people. I base on knowing what they pay Imagineers. It's not the spectacular considering what they. It's high but it was not high enough for a colleague of mine to take a job in Los Angeles instead of hear near Baltimore.

 

[carmelhp]

Well, the natural state of humans is one of abject poverty, one worse than slum conditions that exist in parts of the world today. It's not by coincidence that as the world has increased integration and trade that more people have been lifted from those conditions.

The poverty rate in the U.S. has increased over the last half century despite BOHICA type "integration and trade" since the 1960's. Countries that restrict imports and immigration, like China and India and Mexico have exported their poor and their poverty to to the U.S. As the First World is Third World-ized by the likes of Iger, the eventual net global effect will be every economy brought down to Third World levels. We don't have free trade, we have predatory trade in which the U.S. is the prey. But, we're getting far off topic, aren't we?

 

[insureman]

Looks like this story is gaining traction in the investment world.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/06/09/wait-so-now-disneys-a-bad-guy.aspx

 

[MakiraMarlena]

this is not outsourcing to a foreign country. The layoffs are not the question here. The senator wants DHS to look into whether or not the visa program is being misused when they are making an end run around the hiring process by using contractors. Disney hired a contractor that hires H1-B visa recipients.

Would it be legal for Disney to lay off its own employees and replace them with US contractors?

The pay is SUPPOSED to be the same or more for the visa recipients. But Disney didn't hire them directly. They are paying a contractor who hired them. What does the contractor pay them, and does the value of benefits count - because we know the reason a company like Disney would rather use contractors is because they don't have to pay for benefits for contractors.

 

[Castle2Castle]

The poverty rate in the U.S. has increased over the last half century despite BOHICA type "integration and trade" since the 1960's. Countries that restrict imports and immigration, like China and India and Mexico have exported their poor and their poverty to to the U.S.

Poverty can't simply be exported, and the U.S. has no business being contrasted as though it doesn't have restrictions on imports and immigration. As far as the poverty rate, it's been pretty range-bound from the 60s to today; there's not some steady climb correlating with trade to pin any part of today's poverty rate on trade and immigration. And while the hardships of those struggling are real, poverty today is a different animal altogether than poverty in the 60's or any time before it.

ETA: To avoid continued misinformation but not perpetuate a cycle of endless posts to correct it, I'll instead edit this post to correct carmelhp's claim that the poverty rate "has ticked upward consistently from at least since NAFTA." Actually, the rate decreased for six straight years from 1994-2000 (dot-com bubble and ensuing recession).

The layoffs are not the question here. The senator wants DHS to look into whether or not the visa program is being misused when they are making an end run around the hiring process by using contractors.

Most of the information out there suggests these contractors receive the bulk of the applications each year, and the Orlando Sentinel's article reported Siemens was investigated there back in 2002 using contractors. If they've not found anything to change in 13 years I'm not sure they're going to find much more than a chance to score political points*.


*Senator Nelson could have tackled this any time in the past eight months since the Orlando Sentinel first covered it, but apparently only became aware of it, or interested in taking any stance on it, after the NYT reported on it.

 

[insureman]

This really isn't a "legal/illegal" issue now. It is a perception problem for Disney. I'm sure many of us have either lost a job or know someone who has lost a job do to outsourcing to contractors either in the US or overseas. We are the fans who will be truly disappointed with Disney and there are many of us.

 

[carmelhp]

Poverty can't simply be exported, and the U.S. has no business being contrasted as though it doesn't have restrictions on imports and immigration. As far as the poverty rate, it's been pretty range-bound from the 60s to today; there's not some steady climb correlating with trade to pin any part of today's poverty rate on trade and immigration. And while the hardships of those struggling are real, poverty today is a different animal altogether than poverty in the 60's or any time before it.

U.S. restrictions are nothing like those countries mentioned, and you can export poverty by exporting a sufficient number of the impoverished. Poverty has ticked upward consistently from at least since NAFTA. To say that poverty "is a different animal" is most assuredly in the eye of the beholder, not those experiencing it. We're off topic, I won't discuss it further here.

 

[TwoMisfits]

If true, ouch...maybe it is time to make a big example...

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/09/disney-blacklisted-displaced-american-workers/

 

[Castle2Castle]

If true, ouch...maybe it is time to make a big example...

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/09/disney-blacklisted-displaced-american-workers/

The headline is ridiculous; Disney's claim of a misunderstanding aside, the information provided by the recruiter does not describe a black list. But that's a better attention grabber I guess than "we're repeating everyone else for most of this article". Had their journalism not been so shoddy from the start, I'd find it more interesting on page three they claim Senator Nelson (calling for H-1B investigation) voted in favor of a bill that would have more than doubled the number of available visas in 2013. Also that the former Disney employee they spoke with twice did work for Disney when they previously outsourced IT to an unnamed contractor and IBM. "Fine for me but not for thee" I suppose.

ETA: The former employee having previously benefitted from Disney outsourcing to IBM maybe circles back to the question...

Would it be legal for Disney to lay off its own employees and replace them with US contractors?

This 2005 article about the transfer of 1,000 jobs to IBM and Affiliated Computer Services Inc. suggests the answer is yes.