Disney Senate investigation

[mcd2745]

This has been going on for years in the IT departments of every major corporation in America (certainly at the one I work for). It's disgusting. It probably began as an answer to all the negative backlash from all the outsourcing that was done. Now these compnaies can claim they are keeping jobs here in the states, even though they are filling them with the same exact people who would be doing those jobs had they been outsourced to India.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Not only Disney and the greedy Igor!.....but many companies are doing it and have been for years...........I am the biggest Disney fan, but I would love to see Disney/Igor and other companies getting a good spanking over this.

However except for maybe a glossy hearing, nothing will change. The DC people will get payed off privately and that will be that.

We all have to keep bring up these issues.........start buying *MADE IN THE USA* again. The jobs we save maybe our own.

AKK

 

[Barnabe]

Not only Disney and the greedy Igor!.....but many companies are doing it and have been for years...........I am the biggest Disney fan, but I would love to see Disney/Igor and other companies getting a good spanking over this.

However except for maybe a glossy hearing, nothing will change. The DC people will get payed off privately and that will be that.

We all have to keep bring up these issues.........start buying *MADE IN THE USA* again. The jobs we save maybe our own.

AKK

I agree with buying Made in the USA, if the price and quality are similar to products made oversees. But I can't justify paying more money for a comparable product just because it's made in America.

 

[Josh Hendy]

What is the advantage of hiring H-1B visa workers if their pay would be the same or more than an American worker? Just because Americans are available, doesn't mean they are capable of the job.

Apparently the American workers in this case were capable of doing the job, since they were required to spend several months training and supervising their immigrant replacements to make sure that the replacements did the job exactly as they did previously.

And the pay and benefits of the visa workers are a lot lower than the Americans they replaced. Allegedly.

The issue is, if there were American workers available and if the visa workers are not paid the going rate for American workers, then why were attestations made to the contrary? Usually it's a serious offense to make written attestations to the gummint that are false. If that happened in this case, and it looks like a really blatant breach of the law, then Disney is bound to get beat up a bit, by public opinion and media opinion, if not by the courts.

I say, "if not by the courts" because legislators have a habit of letting really large corporations skate if their legal infractions are very widespread and very long term ... look at the robo-signing scandal ... Disney may have told themselves, "If we get caught we'll just point at defense contractors XYZ and PDQ, and the congress will step in and retroactively legalize everything we've been doing."

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I agree with buying Made in the USA, if the price and quality are similar to products made oversees. But I can't justify paying more money for a comparable product just because it's made in America.

That is of course your choice.............The greater good maybe to pay a more if you kept a USA job, maybe even your own job. So I can justify it.

AKK

 

[Castle2Castle]

Their pay isn't the same, it's less. High Tech has been doing this for years including lobbying Congress to increase the number of H1-B's available. Corp America claims there is a skill problem, not the case they simple want cheap labor.

A report from February this year suggests "far too many [in the U.S.] are graduating high school and completing postsecondary educational programs without receiving adequate skills." It's also not clear that H-1B workers are being paid less than Americans.

The issue is, if there were American workers available and if the visa workers are not paid the going rate for American workers, then why were attestations made to the contrary?

The key word is "if". Employees training their replacements doesn't mean that the job is going to remain static and not take on new responsibilities for which the replacements are more prepared to perform. Assumptions that they're being paid less are completely undocumented and seemingly accepted purely on base protectionist/nationalistic instinct than anything else.

To be fair though, it's the same protectionist/nationalistic instinct politicians played to when they first started capping H-1B visas in the first place. Now it's spun in most of these reports that the program allows a limited number of high-tech workers to enter the U.S. when it actually restricts them.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Assumptions that they're being paid less are completely undocumented and seemingly accepted purely on base protectionist/nationalistic instinct than anything else.

No, you're wrong. Assumptions that they're being paid less are based on the fact that it has been explicitly alleged in news stories.

If you think that the workers quoted in the news stories are lying, or that the journalists who wrote the stories are liars or lazy hacks then say so.

One thing is clear - someone in this story is lying, big time. Either the workers are lying, or else the journalists made everything up, or else the companies involved in the H-1B application process are lying.

This isn't a question of the political biases or "instincts" of the people who are highlighting this issue and trying to get to the bottom of it. If you think that's the issue then you're missing the point.

Speaking personally, I'm not even one little bit protectionist or nationalistic. I'm not even American. But I hate lying, and if this really big company of whom I'm otherwise a really big fan has been lying and blatantly breaking laws, I want to know about it.

EDIT ... sorry to act all cranky. The biggest issue lurking behind this is, "should immigration to all countries in general and the USA in particular be wide open?" Which is where people's instincts come in ... but I think that debate is too complicated, too emotional and too OT.

 

[LeeAndRobin]

We all have to keep bring up these issues.........start buying *MADE IN THE USA* again. The jobs we save maybe our own.

While I believe we should try to "buy Made in the USA" whenever we can, I seriously doubt anyone does 100% of the time. At least, I have yet to meet anyone who never buys something made in another country. However, I have met a lot of people who are vehement BUY USA advocates who still buy plenty of stuff made in China and other countries. My take on this is that if you aren't buying 100% made in the USA, you have no room whatsoever to talk. In other words, if you think buying foreign goods is a problem, yet you still buy ANYTHING from another country, you're as much a part of your perceived "problem" as anyone else is.

 

[Castle2Castle]

If you think that the workers quoted in the news stories are lying, or that the journalists who wrote the stories are liars or lazy hacks then say so.

I'll grant you that I could have missed it in the three topics (at least) that have been posted, but I've not seen any workers report the salary of their replacements. The closest I've seen is the assumption in the article for this topic made by a Howard University professor based on a median salary of HCL employees and the salaries of the unspecified number of Disney employees with whom he spoke.

It's certainly possible they are being paid less, or that they merely cost less due to externalized benefits costs, but that hasn't appeared to be anything more than an assumption in the articles I've read.

This isn't a question of the political biases or "instincts" of the people who are highlighting this issue and trying to get to the bottom of it. If you think that's the issue then you're missing the point.

Speaking personally, I'm not even one little bit protectionist or nationalistic. I'm not even American. But I hate lying, and if this really big company of whom I'm otherwise a really big fan has been lying and blatantly breaking laws, I want to know about it.

I wasn't meaning to imply that you specifically are protectionist/nationalistic, only speaking to the readiness of many people to accept certain claims about the situation and about H-1B visas more broadly.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

While I believe we should try to "buy Made in the USA" whenever we can, I seriously doubt anyone does 100% of the time. At least, I have yet to meet anyone who never buys something made in another country. However, I have met a lot of people who are vehement BUY USA advocates who still buy plenty of stuff made in China and other countries. My take on this is that if you aren't buying 100% made in the USA, you have no room whatsoever to talk. In other words, if you think buying foreign goods is a problem, yet you still buy ANYTHING from another country, you're as much a part of your perceived "problem" as anyone else is.

Interesting theory.........where did I say 100%...............please point it out????...or even imply 100%.....of course I did not and unless I did your theory and comment is plainly in error.

It is not possible to buy 100% domestic....never has been and never will be....anyone knows that... however buying Made in the USA when possible, which is more often then most people realize until they did a little investigating, help US jobs. That is not perceived....its fact.

AKK

 

[DisMommyTX]

I teach college science and engineering majors, and I completely understand why companies would recruit from overseas. Tech is one of the easiest fields for students to get a job in, especially if they are willing to move. Our computer science majors are perfectly happy with C's because there is no competition for jobs. Most of them land a position their first year out of college making more than most of the professors I teach with. They are among the most unmotivated of our students, and I can't imagine that changes much once they are in the real world because they know they can easily find another job. The computer science majors we recruit from overseas (BS and MS programs) have higher skill sets and greater work ethic.

 

[sssteele]

Barnabe and interested others - many leave an important part out of the cheap imports / loss of jobs equation. If I get a t-shirt that costs $15 as an import, and it would cost me $18 if US made (assuming equal quality), there is a hidden cost to buying the "cheaper" import - food and rent subsidies, unemployment payments, etc. The unemployment comp insurance is paid for, in part by employers, but passed on to consumers as a production. Various forms of welfare are obviously paid for by taxpayers, and the fact is that corporate taxes are a cost of production ultimately passed on to consumers. There is a huge hidden cost to cheap imports. Think about it

Interesting theory.........where did I say 100%...............please point it out????...or even imply 100%.....of course I did not and unless I did your theory and comment is plainly in error.

It is not possible to buy 100% domestic....never has been and never will be....anyone knows that... however buying Made in the USA when possible, which is more often then most people realize until they did a little investigating, help US jobs. That is not perceived....its fact.

AKK

 

[sssteele]

Barnabe and interested others - many leave an important part out of the cheap imports / loss of jobs equation. If I get a t-shirt that costs $15 as an import, and it would cost me $18 if US made (assuming equal quality), there is a hidden cost to buying the "cheaper" import - food and rent subsidies, unemployment payments, etc. The unemployment comp insurance is paid for, in part by employers, but passed on to consumers as a production. Various forms of welfare are obviously paid for by taxpayers, and the fact is that corporate taxes are a cost of production ultimately passed on to consumers. There is a huge hidden cost to cheap imports. Think about it[/QUOTE

 

[sssteele]

Sorry about the confusing quotes.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Barnabe and interested others - many leave an important part out of the cheap imports / loss of jobs equation. If I get a t-shirt that costs $15 as an import, and it would cost me $18 if US made (assuming equal quality), there is a hidden cost to buying the "cheaper" import - food and rent subsidies, unemployment payments, etc. The unemployment comp insurance is paid for, in part by employers, but passed on to consumers as a production. Various forms of welfare are obviously paid for by taxpayers, and the fact is that corporate taxes are a cost of production ultimately passed on to consumers. There is a huge hidden cost to cheap imports. Think about it

No problem and you are totally correct sssteele!

AKK

 

[insureman]

So it sounds to me that they are employees of the company from India but are based in the US. Being in the US and at a Disney IT facility gives Disney greater control over productivity and security which they really wouldn't have in India. But the ultimate reasoning is a cheaper labor force. Not usually a fan of NPR but they got it right this time. See the excerpt below from an NPR article in 2013.
"Who Is Using the Visas?

If you scroll through the government's visa data, you notice something surprising. The biggest employer of foreign tech workers is not Microsoft — not by a long shot. Nor is it Google, Facebook or any other name-brand tech company. The biggest users of H-1Bs are consulting companies, or as Ron Hira calls them, "offshore-outsourcing firms."
"The top 10 recipients in [the] last fiscal year were all offshore-outsourcers. And they got 40,000 of the 85,000 visas — which is astonishing," he says.
Hira's a professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology. He's also the son of Indian immigrants and has a personal interest in questions of labor flow across borders.
For the past decade, he's been studying how consulting firms use temporary work visas to help American companies cut costs. He says they use the visas to supply cheaper workers here, but also to smooth the transfer of American jobs to information-technology centers overseas.
"What these firms have done is exploit the loopholes in the H-1B program to bring in on-site workers to learn the jobs [of] the Americans to then ship it back offshore," he says. "And also to bring in on-site workers who are cheaper on the H-1B and undercut American workers right here.

 

[Doug M]

I assumed they would be paid less, but the pp claims they would be paid the same or more.

They dont have to. I work in the field (immigration) and the DOL standard is 20% less than market wage allows them to get qualified. Frequently the pay is less to the H1B than it would be for citizens. I have seen petitions in my area for workers in a field I know we have citizens qualified and looking, but companies are getting H1B to pay less, and the workers cannot move to other employers so the company had less possible recruitment costs.

 

[Josh Hendy]

It's certainly possible they are being paid less, or that they merely cost less due to externalized benefits costs, but that hasn't appeared to be anything more than an assumption in the articles I've read.

Yes it would seem to be an assumption.

The professor said, "They [the Disney workers] were typically being paid about $100,000 with pretty good benefits ... HCL typically pays $61,000," he says. "So you're looking at a good $40,000 or 40 percent wage difference plus additional benefits difference."

But do you really think that Disney would bother to go through this lengthy, complicated process of giving the American citizens layoff notices, paying them severance and bonuses plus their regular paychecks for several months while their job overlaps with the new employees (whose entry into the USA was only allowed after a lengthy and expensive application process) ... without saving any money in the long term through reduced pay and benefits?

If you say "yes" then you're saying that Disney went to a staffing company that is more-or-less notorious for providing low-priced immigrant visa workers (according to the professor), and paid them to provide a lot of workers to replace their existing work force ... at exactly the same wages and benefits. And also paid a large amount of extra money in salaries, bonuses and severance to the displaced workers for the overlap period ... and went through that entire expense and trouble because the visa workers are going to repay them in the long term with higher productivity. Yet the old, unproductive American workers were somehow competent enough that it was insisted that they train and then supervise the new workers for several months, to make sure that the new workers did everything "exactly" the way the old workers did the job.

This is the court of public opinion. You're not helping anyone by hemming and hawing about assumptions and splitting hairs. Do you think that Disney went to HCL to save money in the long term through (a) reduced wages and benefits, or (b) to save money because of the greater productivity of imported Indian workers, while paying them exactly as much as the displaced Americans?

Don't give me a political or legalistic answer. Give me your common sense opinion. What do you think happened?

 

[Barnabe]

Barnabe and interested others - many leave an important part out of the cheap imports / loss of jobs equation. If I get a t-shirt that costs $15 as an import, and it would cost me $18 if US made (assuming equal quality), there is a hidden cost to buying the "cheaper" import - food and rent subsidies, unemployment payments, etc. The unemployment comp insurance is paid for, in part by employers, but passed on to consumers as a production. Various forms of welfare are obviously paid for by taxpayers, and the fact is that corporate taxes are a cost of production ultimately passed on to consumers. There is a huge hidden cost to cheap imports. Think about it

Not arguing with you. But, I am concerned about my money. I want to be able to afford my retirement. I don't have any debt because I am frugal. This includes buying the least expensive products. I am not going to pay more out of my pocket to subsidize US manufacturing. If you want to, go right ahead. But I want to be able to take care of myself for the duration of my life, without relying on government hand outs.

 

[sssteele]

You may have misunderstood my post. You are paying more than you know for your frugal ways. Unless you are not paying taxes, UC and welfare payments are an indirect (hidden) cost of "cheap" imports, as are low wage jobs that qualify employees to receive taxpayer subsidized benefts (I.e. food stamps). Nobody on any forums (in my opinion) has ever sucessfully refuted this argument. And NO, I am not a Socialist, and YES, I do own stock in public corporations. No offense intended.