Disney OK w/Gay Weddings

[DancingBear]

I do feel the desire (not obssesion) to balance an argument concerning values and morals with rational thought.

And your "rational thoughts" are what exactly? I've just seen you insult others as "self-indulgent, pompous and clueless," and make conclusive statements like "homosexuality is an abomination."

 

[PennyW]

We love us some Viki ...

Let's all get back to the celebration!

 

[crazy4wdw]

Just a reminder regarding my earlier comments. There are several comments which are boardering on being personal attacks. I've issued several warnings and infracations to several individuals posting on this thread.

Please remember to be courteous to other posters regarding your comments. People have divergent views on this topic and discussions can become contentious. Just becasue you disagree with someone's viewpoint or opinion, it does not mean that you have the right to attack someone on these forums. I'd rather not close down this thread but it looks like we're headed in that direction. Thanks for your cooperation! Your mod - crazy4wdw

From the disboard guidelines:

NO FIGHTING/SARCASM: While we'd like to think that a Disney fan site is always lighthearted, there are times when there are disagreements. Let's face it, there are certain topics that can transform any of us into a raging "Donald Duck." When you sense this is happening, we ask that you step away from the discussion before it escalates into a fight. Just like Mom always said about fighting, we don't care who started the argument and we don't want it on the DIS. (Okay, she didn't say the part about the DIS, but you know what we mean.) No attacking others and no sarcasm please. Either will result in an infraction.

 

[DC7800]

Whatever your personal feelings on the issue, this decision by Disney was a mistake. It is extremely controversial with opinions polarized on opposite extremes of the issue (neither much willing to compromise or even see the others perspective), it goes against established Florida state law, and you offend someone no matter what decision you make.

Disney, like any institution, would normally seek to avoid creating controversy. If these ceremonies are so expensive, there seems little doubt the decision was driven by the almighty dollar. Disney could do many things to make a buck - a "Vegas" style (adult) show in the MK might make money, but would be completely inappropriate for more family-oriented WDW. You won't find a casino or Wal-Mart on Disney property either, but nobody is attacking your right to patronize them elsewhere.

Disney couldn't win here. Prohibit such ceremonies and be accused of discrimination, or permit it and then have more conservative groups cry foul - as is their right. Possibly the least offensive solution, to all concerned, would have simply been to abide by Florida law, which does not recognize such unions. While there would be complaints, it would then be the state's fault - not Disney's. WDW is in Florida after all, and this is a decision which (largely) belongs in the political (or personal) arena - and Florida has made a ruling, whether you agree with it or not. If you applaud this particular move, note that the shoe could easily be on the other foot next time.

Finally, people have every right to stand in opposition to same-sex marriage in particular, or 'alternative lifestyles' in general, without being attacked, ridiculed, or accused of having a "problem" themselves. That doesn't usually mean they are prejudiced, bigoted, or have 'issues' of their own or anything like that, but rather that they subscribe to a faith or belief system which holds that homosexuality is morally wrong. If proponents of same-sex marriage want respect, they in turn must show respect for persons who disagree - often vehemently - with their lifestyles.

 

[Viki]

]

Finally, people have every right to stand in opposition to same-sex marriage in particular, or 'alternative lifestyles' in general, without being attacked, ridiculed, or accused of having a "problem" themselves. That doesn't usually mean they are prejudiced, bigoted, or have 'issues' of their own or anything like that, but rather that they subscribe to a faith or belief system which holds that homosexuality is morally wrong. If proponents of same-sex marriage want respect, they in turn must show respect for persons who disagree - often vehemently - with their lifestyles.

There are no victims of "faith systems." I say this as a practicing ordained minister in a mainline denomination. That is, faith systems may have any number of confessional systems, but inherent in all of those systems is that the individual believer will always take responsibility for their own conscience - for their own set of beliefs. That is, it is never enough to say "such and such" is bad because my religion tells me so.

In fact, let me push this further, the entire point of FAITH, per se, is to set people FREE from legalisms so that they will, in fact, take responsibility for what they believe and how they live in this world.

Let's recall that in two of the world's three major religions (the Hebrew and Christian faiths) it was the LACK of the willingness to take responsibility for their own actions which earned humans their exit from the garden so that they could, in fact, learn how to take responsibility.

All of which is to say I, for one, will always question people who are vigorous in supporting forms of thought or faith that are less than inclusive. Faith, by its very nature, drives us towards inclusivity, radical inclusivity, anything other than that drive MUST be defended and, really, because it's anti-faith by its very nature, ultimately fail, but, hey, let's give it a go!

 

[MJMcBride]

That doesn't usually mean they are prejudiced, bigoted, or have 'issues' of their own or anything like that, but rather that they subscribe to a faith or belief system which holds that homosexuality is morally wrong.

You just contradicted yourself. Of course, calling someone "morally wrong" is showing prejudice and bias towards them. Plus, why should gay couples who want to leaglize same-sex marriage show any respect to people who view they lifestyle as "morally wrong". I know if I was gay and someone said I was morally bankrupt just for being who I was I would have no respect for them at all.

Plus, as has been said before, Disney has always been supportive of the gay community from providing benefits to partners to specific days at the parks. It comes as no surprise to me that Disney did this. And I still say good for them. Its one of the real good things to come from the Eisner Era.

 

[NeverEnufWDW]

Adam and Eve.....

NOT Adam and Steve......

NOT Alice and Eve....

Man + Woman = Marriage.

Disney fails on the moral front again.

 

[hematite153]

inherent in all [faith] systems is that the individual believer will always take responsibility for their own conscience - for their own set of beliefs. That is, it is never enough to say "such and such" is bad because my religion tells me so.
...
Faith, by its very nature, drives us towards inclusivity, radical inclusivity, anything other than that drive MUST be defended and, really, because it's anti-faith by its very nature, ultimately fail, but, hey, let's give it a go!

Of course, calling someone "morally wrong" is showing prejudice and bias towards them.

Thank you both for these clear and rational postings.

Viki-as always, you managed to say exactly what I couldn't put into words but kept spinning in my head.

MJMcBride-thank you for the simple, clear statement.

Somehow I always get too emotional when I feel like I (or others) am being attacked--especially when the claim has been raised that I should be okay with people attacking others because it is their right to believe something different from me. My feeling is that you are welcome to disagree with me but that doesn't give you any more right to attack me than my disagreeing with you gives me the right to attack you. (On that note: let me apologize to anyone who may have interpreted my earlier posts on this thread as an attack. That was not my intention, but, I typed out of emotion, not heavy thought.)

 

[CanadianGuy]

I do feel the desire (not obssesion) to balance an argument concerning values and morals with rational thought.

I've watched this conversation from a-far .. or at least lurked without posting for a few days now.

I have some thoughts to add to the discussion .... expanding in part from Viki's thoughts on "faith".

While I think it's fair to say that I believe RHall (or anybody) has the right to believe that gay *anything* -- is wrong in his or her own faith... I also believe that anyone's right to that belief (or any other) terminates where my right to self-determination begins...

Society at large makes concensus, conscious choices about what it generally acceptable and not acceptable. In the grand scheme of things, how does me being gay -- change anyone else's life?

It does not... unless they choose to focus on it... to the exclusion of every other aspect of my being or of my life even.

If being gay were a choice.. or a decision.. or something that wishing or prayer could change -- one of those things would have worked on me by now.

I had a very long and difficult road to accept who I am and my own personal place in this world and my own personal relationship with God. In some ways, I wish everyone in the world had to travel a similar difficult path... maybe many of us do, I'm not sure. I do think, if each of us made such a similiar personal and introspective journey, it would make us all a little more understanding towards our fellow man/woman.

While it is true that I have little time for those who, acting on faith, believe I have no place in this world... I don't feel the same way towards them. I try to treat them and their beliefs with respect; be they Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Scientologist, Mormon or Wiccan. I have faith that if I do that much, God will sort it all out as He deems necessary, when and if He so chooses.

Some seem to believe that the very act of giving me basic rights and freedoms in this world; the very act of treating others with respect and honoring their basic humanity, somehow diminishes the rights and freedoms, respect and honor, 'left over' for them. That my marriage.. should I ever have one.. would somehow diminish the true meaning and covenant or your marriage with -your- God ?

How is that possible? How can my marriage or union before God, have that much power over yours?

I've never understood this thinking.

I know some feel strongly, passionately even that they are right. But such thinking leaves no room for the notion that maybe it's the Jews that will inherit the earth. Then what? Or what if it was really Mohammed that was the real son of God? Buddha? The Mormons? Scientologists?

How can we possibly know? We don't. We each individually make our choices for our relationship with God and we individually believe these things on faith.

I cannot fathom that God would condemn to an eternity of ****, the people who were of different faiths than mine. That is billions and billions of people throughout the history of the time. My faith and my relationship with God tells me a just and loving God would not do such a thing. Regardless of who he or she is and which faith is 'right'.

And for those who believe I have no place in this world, I don't happen to believe that this one thought or belief shapes their entire being. I have faith in the inherent goodness of man.

Just as for me, being gay doesn't shape my entire being.

It's a small part of who I am.

Nobody has to accept it. But if I must accept that their beliefs are theirs to hold and cherish; and I accept their marriage as a union before God, I don't question that.... I accept the same respect in return.

Those who condemn this decision from Disney are welcome to do so. And they are welcome to withhold their dollars from the companies and organizations who do things they feel are against their belief structure. And they are free to shout from the rooftops their displeasure.

What these forces cannot do.. is ask me to change my personal being.. the very things that make me -- ME -- just because some don't agree or it makes them uncomfortable.

Calling me morally wrong.. leaves out a few words.. "morally wrong in your view in light of your relationship with your God." Remember above all, any individual, is but one fraction of the population of one religion.. which is in itself.. a small fraction of the religions and beliefs of the population on this Earth.

Someone can hold the belief that I am going to burn for all eternity if that is their faith. All I ask is they treat me with the same respect as any other human being on this planet. And that they have faith that God -- whoever's God - will sort it out when so required.

Have faith. It all comes down to having faith.

Faith. Have the faith to believe that if your personal belief structure is right -- your actions of condeming and judging are misplaced. That is God's work to do. In fact, if you are Christian, you know that He has specifically charged you with NOT judging and condemning.

He asks us, even commands us, on faith no less, to leave that work to Him.

And you know that Jesus, the son of God, frequently did some of his best work among the outcasts, the social and literal lepers of his time. He didn't condone the prostitute, the destitute, the homeless or the sinner; but he respected each as a human being. And He did not judge. And He was the son of God, free of sin, yet He did not judge... In fact he went out of his way to show them respect and courtesy; to honor their basic humanity.

Faith. Have the faith and courage to believe that you can live near, around, beside and in communion with those with whom you might fundamentally disagree on the most basic of issues. And yet still share the common bond of the brotherhood/sisterhood of humans and mutual respect...

And have faith that in so doing, your own personal faith and beliefs cannot be corrupted by others; by their beliefs or even their actions. This will be a strong shining example of your faith and the love of God for all to see.

And you may actually grow as a person and in your own personal faith and relationship with God.. whichever God that may be.

That.. is my rational thinking.

Knox

 

[DC7800]

My feeling is that you are welcome to disagree with me but that doesn't give you any more right to attack me than my disagreeing with you gives me the right to attack you

Exactly - this sentence could be applied verbatim to both sides in this debate. People should be able to respectfully disagree without attacking their "opponent" (who they probably agree with completely on many other issues). You can disagree with someone without being prejudiced towards them.

 

[OrlandoMike]

“To all who come to this happy place; welcome. Disneyland is your land. Here age relives fond memories of the past...and here youth may savor the challenge and promise of the future. Disneyland is dedicated to the ideals, the dreams and the hard facts that have created America...with the hope that it will be a source of joy and inspiration to all the world.” - Walt Disney


"Walt Disney World is a tribute to the philosophy and life of Walter Elias Disney ... and to the talents, the dedication, and the loyalty of the entire Disney organization that made Walt Disney's dream come true. May Walt Disney World bring Joy and Inspiration, and New Knowledge to all that come to this happy place ... a Magic Kingdom where the young at heart of all ages can laugh and play and learn together. Dedicated this 25th day of October, 1971." - Roy Disney

 

[Viki]

And Vicki being a minister you should know the teachings of Paul in Romans, Timothy and Corinthians. Explain that for me please.

Yes, Paul was very concerned that Christians not fall back into legalism but instead be set free for freedom in which they might take responsibility for themselves, each other, and the whole creation.

You got it!

 

[RHall]

Yes, Paul was very concerned that Christians not fall back into legalism but instead be set free for freedom in which they might take responsibility for themselves, each other, and the whole creation.

You got it!

Vicki you are side-stepping the real issue here. Please face the issue head-on.

 

[Viki]

Vicki you are side-stepping the real issue here. Please face the issue head-on.

Not at all - I believe I've gone right to the heart of the matter!

 

[RHall]

Not at all - I believe I've gone right to the heart of the matter!

From Romans 1:26-27

For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones,and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

[Viki]

From Romans 1:26-27

For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones,and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

In the past I've found it difficult to teach hermeneutics on a message board (hermeneutics is the way one reads scripture), which is one of the many reasons I have a professional blog on transitional ministry.

Please visit and there you'll find a first lesson in how to read the first story in Genesis http://interimministry.net
which you can then use to generalize to all scripture.

BTW, the folk Paul is referring to above aren't lesbian or gay.

 

[crazy4wdw]

It appears that several posters on this thread did not heed my warning yesterday. I feel that the discussion on this topic has run its course and the thread will be closed.