Disney defeats lawsuit claiming Disabled Access System violates ADA

[circus4u]

Disney defeats lawsuit claiming Disabled Access System violates ADA, discriminates against autistic children

http://thedisneyblog.com/2016/04/28...-ada-discriminates-against-autistic-children/

 

[rteetz]

Interesting to see that this is finally over.

 

[Kimly]

Good for Disney.

 

[soniam]

I am not surprised. I don't have an autistic child, and I don't claim to understand how difficult that would be. However, I don't think anyone has a right to even go to Disney, much less for it to be exactly as they want it to be. I hate cigarette smoke, and I am allergic to it. I will sometimes just randomly starts coughing, choking, and tearing up for no reason, until I realize that there is smoke nearby. It's not a completely life altering thing and pales in comparison to autism or any real accessibility issue, but it has pretty much put me off from going to Vegas or a casino again. I didn't go to clubs for a long time in Austin because of this. I haven't sued anyone because of this. I don't feel like I should be treated special, even though second hand smoke has been proven to cause health issues. However, I do a little happy dance whenever I see smoking banned more. Don't get me wrong. I am completely for making things as accessible as reasonably possible, but I think Disney did that.

 

[HopperFan]

Interesting to see that this is finally over.

Well, maybe. One of the things Disney was able to get done was have each individual suing split up into individual cases instead of standing together as they wanted. This was one case. Hopefully the results will send a message to the others.

I am not surprised. I don't have an autistic child, and I don't claim to understand how difficult that would be. However, I don't think anyone has a right to even go to Disney, much less for it to be exactly as they want it to be. I hate cigarette smoke, and I am allergic to it. I will sometimes just randomly starts coughing, choking, and tearing up for no reason, until I realize that there is smoke nearby. It's not a completely life altering thing and pales in comparison to autism or any real accessibility issue, but it has pretty much put me off from going to Vegas or a casino again. I didn't go to clubs for a long time in Austin because of this. I haven't sued anyone because of this. I don't feel like I should be treated special, even though second hand smoke has been proven to cause health issues. However, I do a little happy dance whenever I see smoking banned more. Don't get me wrong. I am completely for making things as accessible as reasonably possible, but I think Disney did that.

Well I am in that boat and have been for 32 years. Went 18 or so years working it on my own (a diagnosis does not mean you need assistance and sadly that was a major part of the abuse/overuse), then had to start getting GAC as life changed and now have the DAS. The GAC was a hot mess and in slow years was allowed to be implemented improperly. Any given FP line was packed full of families with red cards. The DAS works great, is fair to all, is completely workable and more than generous. It has actually allowed us to last longer since there is forced rest time vs hustling from ride to ride before we hit a wall.

Even though I am in that boat, I completely agree ..... Disney is a luxury vacation, not a right. We all have choices to make regarding our families. If something no longer works for us - time to find something that does. If I can only go to the parks 2 hours a day - then I need to save enough to stay longer and work with it. I need to plan extra with FP+/DAS/meals/rest/avoiding triggers/medications etc ..... I NEED TO PLAN. It is my responsibility. Disney giving us a DAS is a huge tool for us and I appreciate it. What the plaintiffs want is above and beyond reason.

 

[DisMommyTX]

My son has special needs, and the new DAS works well for him. Not perferct, and not comparable to the experience our neurotypical daughter has at Disney, but nothing in his life is. However, there are many kids for whom it is not working. Disney has taken a one-size-fits-all approach to issues that are different for every family. They consulted with autism groups prior to implementing the new system, then ignored the recommendations. Very simple changes could make the DAS vastly more effective, without significantly impacting anyone else's experience.

For example, why is it necessary for one of us to visit the attraction in person to get a return time? They chose not to allow booking on the app or at the exit of a different attraction. It may seem like a minor inconvenience to others, but for us it's like putting a piece of cake in front of a 3 year old, then telling him he gets to eat it in 40 minutes. Even more fun when your child has no concept of time and obsessively asks the same question over and over.

And why am I required to go back to Guest Relations every 60 days and explain to a 20 year old CM that my son isn't like most other kids? We are AP holders, and I assure you that he will not suddenly overcome his challenges between trips.

There are just so many ways they have fallen short on the implementation of this. What's worse, suggestions for improvements have been completely ignored. Other than switching from a paper to electronically linking to MB, they haven't made a single improvement to the DAS since the day it was launched, and getting any other accommodations is more difficult than ever.

I have not followed the specifics of any individual case in our overly litigious society. I also understand that the previous system was being abused and don't think front line access is appropriate for most situations.
But, I honestly don't think Disney has made a good faith effort to provide reasonable accommodations, they just went through the motions to claim they tried.

 

[ParrotBill]

Allow me to point out that the accommodation you are suggestion would cost money for Disney to implement. That's a major feature in MDE with considerable implication. How do you make it available to the people who need it only, and avoid abuse? Next, this is the accommodation you feel is needed for your child's special needs. What about the next 100 people with slightly different special needs? Each one requiring another investment by Disney? Make it law and every public place in the USA must now make these accommodations creating billions of dollars in required new costs. Why not require grocery and clothing stores to implement special access for all types of needs since these are the necessities of life compared to a theme park vacation? The economy sags under the burden.

There is simply no easy answer. Disney is meeting and exceeding the present ADA laws, which are, admittedly, designed for physical access challenges. As a society we are far away from understanding, accepting, and helping people with mental and social disorders.

I have a daughter with challenges too. When she breaks down from overload, we have to take her back to the hotel. Every time. Even if that means leaving Fastpasses behind. There are things we don't do when she can't handle them. And we don't use DAS by choice because there are others more in need. We simply work around our limitations.

 

[Dinohood]

The guy who wanted win and didn't needs to learn people can not bend over backwards for everyone if his challenges were that bad maybe disney is not right for him. I have asd which is different but I know what i can handle and what i can't if things get to loud i leave and I also like routine i eat lunch at noon if i don't then i get a headache, if he could not change his routine without panicking then he needs some help to work on it at home before he goes on vacation.

 

[minorthr]

My son has special needs, and the new DAS works well for him. Not perferct, and not comparable to the experience our neurotypical daughter has at Disney, but nothing in his life is. However, there are many kids for whom it is not working. Disney has taken a one-size-fits-all approach to issues that are different for every family. They consulted with autism groups prior to implementing the new system, then ignored the recommendations. Very simple changes could make the DAS vastly more effective, without significantly impacting anyone else's experience.

For example, why is it necessary for one of us to visit the attraction in person to get a return time? They chose not to allow booking on the app or at the exit of a different attraction. It may seem like a minor inconvenience to others, but for us it's like putting a piece of cake in front of a 3 year old, then telling him he gets to eat it in 40 minutes. Even more fun when your child has no concept of time and obsessively asks the same question over and over.

And why am I required to go back to Guest Relations every 60 days and explain to a 20 year old CM that my son isn't like most other kids? We are AP holders, and I assure you that he will not suddenly overcome his challenges between trips.

There are just so many ways they have fallen short on the implementation of this. What's worse, suggestions for improvements have been completely ignored. Other than switching from a paper to electronically linking to MB, they haven't made a single improvement to the DAS since the day it was launched, and getting any other accommodations is more difficult than ever.

I have not followed the specifics of any individual case in our overly litigious society. I also understand that the previous system was being abused and don't think front line access is appropriate for most situations.
But, I honestly don't think Disney has made a good faith effort to provide reasonable accommodations, they just went through the motions to claim they tried.

Your son sounds a lot like ours. Without starting a huge debate for our situation the old system was a lot better. We have only used the paper DAS if it is now linked to the magic band that could cause us issues if they require him to be there to get the time. In the past I would just run to a ride and get a time while my wife kept him occupied.

The first time we tried DAS we got on 3 rides in three days and I have stated in some other threads to their credit Disney has made additional accommodations for us that greatly assisted us. It requires a visit to guest relations everytime we visit a park but it was a big help.

One of our biggest issues is dinning reservations. I've lost track of how many cancelation fees I've paid.

 

[SueM in MN]

Your son sounds a lot like ours. Without starting a huge debate for our situation the old system was a lot better. We have only used the paper DAS if it is now linked to the magic band that could cause us issues if they require him to be there to get the time. In the past I would just run to a ride and get a time while my wife kept him occupied.

The first time we tried DAS we got on 3 rides in three days and I have stated in some other threads to their credit Disney has made additional accommodations for us that greatly assisted us. It requires a visit to guest relations everytime we visit a park but it was a big help.

One of our biggest issues is dinning reservations. I've lost track of how many cancelation fees I've paid.

He does not need to be present to get a DAS Return Time.
At Guest Relations, DAS is added to the DAS holder's Magicband or ticket. The other members of the party get their Magicband or ticket linked to that. Anyone in the group can go to an attraction and get a DAS Return Time.

The DAS holder needs to be present to use the DAS Return Time, but not to get it.
The first post in this thread is up to date with how DAS works at WDW (other posts are from before or soon after DAS began and are no longer pertinent).
http://www.disboards.com/threads/wd...15-digital-das-on-tickets-magicbands.3178976/

 

[sndral]

...
But, I honestly don't think Disney has made a good faith effort to provide reasonable accommodations, they just went through the motions to claim they tried.

IMO GAC was no longer workable due to over use and/or abuse. Based on what I've read, Disney studied their crowds - who does what, where and when. From that information they saw that the GAC system was providing an increasing number of guests with front of the line access while decreasing access to non GAC guests. Two rides I've read numbers for are Carsland and TSM where GAC groups were able to ride multiple times whereas many non GAC guests were unable to ride at all due to capacity limits. Clearly the system needed to be changed. I believe Disney decided to provide what the law requires - equal access.
What sometimes is forgotten is what 'reasonable accommodation' means. The opinion stated that "public accomodations must start by considering how their facilities are used by non- disabled guests and then take reasonable steps to provide disabled guests with a like experience" and the Judge held that "Defendant [Disney] provided plaintiff an opportunity to gain a like benefit from its parks as non-disabled individuals."
The question is not what will give the disabled person the best possible experience for them, rather it is what will give the disabled person the same access to an experience as non disabled persons.
In granting Disney's motion for summary judgement the court found that even assuming everything plaintiff claimed was true they could not prevail on any legal theory and thus were barred from trying their case. I assume plaintiff's attorneys will appeal, we'll see if the appellate court finds a triable issue. There are 20+ other similar lawsuits, so this is just the first to be decided and is pretty fact specific to this plaintiff. The court even held that plaintiff didn't have standing to bring the suit since he left the MK after one ride without even trying to use the DAS accommodation. The other cases may be factually different and may survive summary judgement.

 

[Huff]

The GAC worked well for us at DLR and WDW. I had heard of abuse and assume some certainly existed. However, in all the years using GAC I rarely noticed any major issues. Occasionally there would be a family of 12-15 all wanting access on a single GAC. The CM's almost always allowed them to proceed despite it being against the GAC policy. I just never saw enough abuse to say it was a major issue.

That said, the new DAS system works well and is more than reasonable for those that need such.

 

[SueM in MN]

This is an earlier blog post by Jack Burgin, who wrote a newer blog post.

http://blog.wdwinfo.com/2015/11/02/disney-asks-court-to-dismiss-autismdas-lawsuit/

The Federal Judge's final ruling in Disney's favor is very similar to Jack's analysis of the case on that older blog post. That blog also talks about some of the GAC (Guest Assistance Cards) abuse - including selling of unexpired GACs on Craig's list and eBay (I personally saw listings for sale on eBay as "never ending Fastpasses")

It was also very easy to find evidence of fraud on the Internet, including a non-disabled woman who posted about her world travels (with no accommodation), but posted that she got a GAC at WDW as a 'perk of being pregnant'. It was also possible to find blogs where people with autistic children talked about riding high demand attractions over and over pretty much as quickly as they could walk thru the Fastpass line.

Over the years, my family witnessed situations of abuse/fraud multiple times. One involved a mom and son ahead of me in line at Guest Relations who told the CM the son was severely autistic, could not speak and couldn't wait for more than a few minutes. He stood next to her blankly staring at his hands while he flapped them inches in front of his face. They got a GAC and when I came out, my DH asked what the family had gotten - the boy came running out, high fived the dad and yelled, "we got it". We saw them periodically during the day, but he moly acted the way I had seen in Guest Relations when near attractions.

 

[Stars In The Night]

I have not gone to Disney yet, but for our planned trip we will be getting the DAS for my autistic and SPD daughter. From what I have read it sounds very fair to me, I don't expect the entire world to bend over backwards for my family. I'm just happy Disney at least does what it does.

 

[Goofyuk]

I'm always amazed whenever i read the comments on these kind of articles the amount of people who complain about a system they don't understand. On the list nk theres a commentator complaining about how awful the system is and how terrible Disney is for trying to force her son to fit into their policy.
She then describes how she would want the system to work instead. The next commentator simply points out that her suggested system is the way that DAS actually works!

 

[MamaJinji]

The one time my family used the old GAC system was in 2006. For quick background, the night we got to Disney, my sister managed to break her toe opening the door to the bathroom in our room (the door got stuck, she tugged, it came loose). Disney provided medical assistance, a different room, and then gave us a wheelchair for the week, since they accepted responsibility. Since she had a very difficult time standing for any amount of time, we used the GAC all week. I was honestly very surprised to find out using it basically meant we didn't need to FP anything, since using the GAC was basically the same thing.

Next time we go to Disney, we're going to need to use the DAS for my autistic son. His issues aren't huge, but he'll certainly benefit from alternate line opportunities. But if every line was like the setup for Dumbo, I don't think we'd have a problem, the kid adores slides and things. Lol. We'll have to see how this works out, but the system sounds fair.

 

[ghosto hosto]

I am not surprised. I don't have an autistic child, and I don't claim to understand how difficult that would be. However, I don't think anyone has a right to even go to Disney, much less for it to be exactly as they want it to be. I hate cigarette smoke, and I am allergic to it. I will sometimes just randomly starts coughing, choking, and tearing up for no reason, until I realize that there is smoke nearby. It's not a completely life altering thing and pales in comparison to autism or any real accessibility issue, but it has pretty much put me off from going to Vegas or a casino again. I didn't go to clubs for a long time in Austin because of this. I haven't sued anyone because of this. I don't feel like I should be treated special, even though second hand smoke has been proven to cause health issues. However, I do a little happy dance whenever I see smoking banned more. Don't get me wrong. I am completely for making things as accessible as reasonably possible, but I think Disney did that.

Don't be shy about objecting to cgarette smoke. It doesn't just cause health issues. It causes cancer and death. We have a right to clean non toxic air everywhwere. By the way Disneyland Paris does not enforce the smoking only in designated areas rule. It ruined our visit returning to our hotel with eyes, nose and throat irratation every night. You may want to avoid visiting. Although the
Ratatouille attraction was almost worth it.

 

[KYMickey]

By the way Disneyland Paris does not enforce the smoking only in designated areas rule. It ruined our visit returning to our hotel with eyes, nose and throat irratation every night. You may want to avoid visiting.

That doesn't really surprise me in the slightest. Overall the French attitude toward smoking is what it was in the states back in the 60s!

 

[SueM in MN]

The one time my family used the old GAC system was in 2006. For quick background, the night we got to Disney, my sister managed to break her toe opening the door to the bathroom in our room (the door got stuck, she tugged, it came loose). Disney provided medical assistance, a different room, and then gave us a wheelchair for the week, since they accepted responsibility. Since she had a very difficult time standing for any amount of time, we used the GAC all week. I was honestly very surprised to find out using it basically meant we didn't need to FP anything, since using the GAC was basically the same thing.

Next time we go to Disney, we're going to need to use the DAS for my autistic son. His issues aren't huge, but he'll certainly benefit from alternate line opportunities. But if every line was like the setup for Dumbo, I don't think we'd have a problem, the kid adores slides and things. Lol. We'll have to see how this works out, but the system sounds fair.

That was one of the issues with GAC (Guest Assistance Cards), which ended in October 2013.
Someone using a wheelchair did not need GAC since wheelchairs could be used in line without it. Almost every attraction in 2006 was wheelchair accessible thru the regular - no GAC needed. For those that weren't, the CMs could see the wheelchair and send guests where they needed to go without a card.
There were different stamps on the GAC that gave different accommodations. Some of the specific stamps were:
- sitting in the front row for vision related disabilities
- waiting in a shaded place for lines where a significant portion of the line would be in the sun
- using the wheelchair entrance or seating area to avoid stairs (for guests who did not have a visible mobility need like a wheelchair, walker or ECV)
- a quieter place to wait
- alternate access, which allowed use of the wheelchair entrance or Fastpass entrance.

It was printed right on the card that guests who wanted to avoid waits should make use of Disney's regular Fastpass system. The alternate access stamp was meant to be for the small number of guests who had great difficulty waiting in lines.
But, by the end of the GAC program, that was probably the most frequent stamp because people read on social media that GAC allowed use of the Fastpass line, so that was what they said they needed. There were a lot of pages on the internet about how to get it, including one healthy woman who was traveling all over the world without trouble while pregnant, who posted "Disney has this great perk for pregnancy. Just tell them you are pregnant and they will give you a card that lets you go in the Fastpass line or exit for everything".

Even when people didn't have the correct stamp, CMs sometimes let people use the Fastpass entrance anyway because it was easier than a long arguement with the couple who would show their GAC with a "shaded waiting spot" or "wheelchair entrance" and demand to use the Fastpass line.

And, some of the other issues that caused problems were people who were not able to wait in the regular line and had rigid process they followed on every park trip. Many of these involved several high demand attractions or riding a high demand attraction multiple times in a row to start the visit. For example - Rock N Roller Coaster, then Tower of Terror, then ice cream before doing anything else. Or first Toy Story Mania or Peter Pan 3 times in a row before doing anything else. If it was a few people, it doesn't make a lot of impact, but one of the article that I think was already posted here was about Disneyland Radiator City Racers creating Fastpass line waits of 45 minutes due to the large number of people with GACs coming into the Fastpass line.
All of these things were issues that made the change from GAC to DAS needed.

 

[Eoghann]

I am not surprised. I don't have an autistic child, and I don't claim to understand how difficult that would be. However, I don't think anyone has a right to even go to Disney, much less for it to be exactly as they want it to be. I hate cigarette smoke, and I am allergic to it. I will sometimes just randomly starts coughing, choking, and tearing up for no reason, until I realize that there is smoke nearby. It's not a completely life altering thing and pales in comparison to autism or any real accessibility issue, but it has pretty much put me off from going to Vegas or a casino again. I didn't go to clubs for a long time in Austin because of this. I haven't sued anyone because of this. I don't feel like I should be treated special, even though second hand smoke has been proven to cause health issues. However, I do a little happy dance whenever I see smoking banned more. Don't get me wrong. I am completely for making things as accessible as reasonably possible, but I think Disney did that.

Well it's more a matter that everyone who does go to Disney has a right under the law to a certain level of access to what is in the parks. That is broadly what the ADA says. So the question that had to be answered was if Disney's new policy met that requirement, and it does. Challenging companies to ensure that what they are doing meets the ADA is an entirely valid thing to do in my view, I wouldn't put it in the "suing because coffee is hot" category

As the parent of someone with Aspergers (or high functioning autism as the classified it now) I was surprised by the objections because being able to come back at an assigned time and thus being able to plan a schedule (planning is terribly important) is generally a good thing for people with Aspergers. I suspect a lot of the complaints came from the fact the new policy was poorly explained.