Disney, Adoption and The Avengers...

EMom

<font color=red>Comes from a long line of all fork
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
This.
It's one line in a movie.
True. But it is one line that could be like a knife to the heart to a kid who was adopted and just wanted to see a fun movie. Consideiring how many non-adults will see this movie and how many of them will have been adopted, the line has the potential to hurt many children. And sadly, it will once again, give ammo to those who want to make fun of kids who have been adopted. Why not something like, "Loki was not born Asgard," to make the same point without the old cliche of, "He was adopted."? I fear the answer is because (1) resorting to adoption as a punchline is easy and/or (2) some people fail to realize their quietly held prejudices.

Yes, I saw Thor. I was looking forward to The Avengers. This has taken a lot of the fun out of seeing it and I am relieved we are not taking DD.
 

Doug7856

DIS Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
True. But it is one line that could be like a knife to the heart to a kid who was adopted and just wanted to see a fun movie. Consideiring how many non-adults will see this movie and how many of them will have been adopted, the line has the potential to hurt many children. And sadly, it will once again, give ammo to those who want to make fun of kids who have been adopted. Why not something like, "Loki was not born Asgard," to make the same point without the old cliche of, "He was adopted."? I fear the answer is because (1) resorting to adoption as a punchline is easy and/or (2) some people fail to realize their quietly held prejudices.

Yes, I saw Thor. I was looking forward to The Avengers. This has taken a lot of the fun out of seeing it and I am relieved we are not taking DD.
Hi EMom,
I opened this thread because it really bothered me as a parent. I have expressed my thoughts to Disney, for what it's worth. We did enjoy the film immensely. My 10 year old son has been talking about it ever since we saw it.

For us, it was out of the blue and unexpected. We did discuss it and that there are members of society who hold prejudices with regard to children who have been adopted. It's just so frustrating that modern media portray the adopted child as the wayward child. Such a thin plot line, can't they do any better?

The movie is great and you will most likely enjoy it. We may even see it again.
 

LilyWDW

Going to My Happy Place
Joined
May 7, 2006
You all are still reading way too much into it in my honest opinion. The movie is PG-13... you should be able to have a discussion with your child on how the line makes sense in the context of the movie if they are old enough to see it. It DOES make sense. It was not thrown in their purely as a jab to people who have been adopted. It has a point in the movie, just like the fact Loki was adopted had a point in Thor.
 
  • CurlyJo224

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Sep 30, 2007
    I did see both The Avengers and Thor. both very good movies. In "Thor" there was not a connection to Loki's actions and his adoption. I have no problem with that presentation.

    I do have a problem with adoption presented as the reason: "Loki's adopted". It's a reason for the evil aspect of the character. It's the thought that "He's not really my brother, he's adopted" that I object to. Families created through adoption are no less family.

    Your comments are appreciate and no doubt I'm sensitive to how adoption is presented to my children and the cultural acceptance of adoption in general.
    Did you watch Thor? Really?

    Loki does what he does BECAUSE he finds out that he is not Odin's son. Loki's own feelings about being adopted have bearing on everything he does. The line from this movie aside (which was most likely just intended as a quick joke), Loki is the only one who has a problem with the fact that he is not of the line of Odin. Thor still loves him and thinks of him as his brother, and Frigga and Odin still think of him as their son. In the comics, this only changes after all of the awful things he does.
     

    Jennasis

    DIS life goes on
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2000
    True. But it is one line that could be like a knife to the heart to a kid who was adopted and just wanted to see a fun movie. Consideiring how many non-adults will see this movie and how many of them will have been adopted, the line has the potential to hurt many children. And sadly, it will once again, give ammo to those who want to make fun of kids who have been adopted. Why not something like, "Loki was not born Asgard," to make the same point without the old cliche of, "He was adopted."? I fear the answer is because (1) resorting to adoption as a punchline is easy and/or (2) some people fail to realize their quietly held prejudices.

    Yes, I saw Thor. I was looking forward to The Avengers. This has taken a lot of the fun out of seeing it and I am relieved we are not taking DD.
    You clearly aren't earning your living as a screenwriter.



    Good thing I brought enough for everyone...

     

    Poohforyou

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 16, 2011
    I took my son to see The Avengers on Saturday. In one key scene, as the Avengers are assembled they review the evil committed by Loki. Thor confronts the rest of the Avengers because Loki is his brother. When the Avengers list the atrocities he has committed, Thor volunteers that “Loki was adopted”. It got quite a laugh from the audience, yet it implies that an adopted sibling is less family than biological children.

    Children don’t need to be told they are inferior or defective or less of a family member because they were adopted, especially from someone as trusted as the Walt Disney Company. There are 73.8 million children who are a part of families created through adoption. It’s odd that Disney would choose to send a message that adopted children are less part of a family than biological children, but in my opinion, that’s exactly what happens in The Avengers.

    The movie was excellent and I don’t regret taking my son to see it. I just thought we had moved beyond these stereotypes about adoption.

    This is my point of view as the father of adopted children.

    Did this scene bother anyone else?
    As the mother of an adopted child I think you're reading too much into it if it happened as you stated. I would interpret it as one brother making a joke about another because the one brother was a trouble maker. It's just something siblings do and no harm is meant by it.

    I have 3 brothers and we're all biological siblings. We joke that one of our brothers is adopted because he doesn't look anything like the rest of us. I'm sure my DD has heard these jokes but she's confident in that she's as much a part of our family as any other person. Her being adopted as just a non-issue for us and her.
     

    snarlingcoyote

    <font color=blue>I know people who live in really
    Joined
    Dec 27, 2008
    As an adoptee, I must say, I think the line more obnoxious now that I've heard the convoluted apologetics for it.

    So we have cliche #1 Adoptee isn't told he's adopted matched with melodrama cliche #2 Adoptee goes nuts when he finds out he's adopted because of cliche #3 Adoptee is a just a Bad Seed and you can't do anything about it. :rolleyes:

    Jee. I feel so much better about that line. Before I thought it was just a dumb throwaway line in a not bad summer movie. Now I'm just v. glad I've never seen Thor.
     
  • EricQelDroma

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    May 6, 2012
    I don't think anyone here's being "too sensitive" about anything. Thor was clearly implying that Loki was not a true part of the Odin-line family. Well, guess what? If someone's adopted, they're part of the family. The end, that's it.

    But maybe you’re right. Maybe it's just one line. Maybe one little joke won't hurt anyone. Maybe the next movie should have some throw-away lines about how Fury couldn’t get the job done because he’s black, or how they should have had a man do the Widow’s job, or how this was all the Hulk’s fault somehow because he’s a stupid r—-d. Let’s see how funny “jokes” like that are when spoken by someone kids are supposed to look up to. Maybe next time Captain America can make those jokes instead of Thor.

    Give me a break. Marvel dropped the ball here, big time.
     

    EMom

    <font color=red>Comes from a long line of all fork
    Joined
    Jul 2, 2007
    As an adoptee, I must say, I think the line more obnoxious now that I've heard the convoluted apologetics for it.

    So we have cliche #1 Adoptee isn't told he's adopted matched with melodrama cliche #2 Adoptee goes nuts when he finds out he's adopted because of cliche #3 Adoptee is a just a Bad Seed and you can't do anything about it. :rolleyes:

    Jee. I feel so much better about that line. Before I thought it was just a dumb throwaway line in a not bad summer movie. Now I'm just v. glad I've never seen Thor.
    That's what I meant. It's the easy way out and a cheap joke at the expense of a group of people. It's just that it is still apparently okay to make jokes at THIS group of people. No, I am not being too sensitive. I am being a mother who is tired of the "less than/bad seed/doesn't fit" jokes.
     

    Styx Fan

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 16, 2009
    I don't think anyone here's being "too sensitive" about anything. Thor was clearly implying that Loki was not a true part of the Odin-line family. Well, guess what? If someone's adopted, they're part of the family. The end, that's it.

    But maybe you’re right. Maybe it's just one line. Maybe one little joke won't hurt anyone. Maybe the next movie should have some throw-away lines about how Fury couldn’t get the job done because he’s black, or how they should have had a man do the Widow’s job, or how this was all the Hulk’s fault somehow because he’s a stupid r—-d. Let’s see how funny “jokes” like that are when spoken by someone kids are supposed to look up to. Maybe next time Captain America can make those jokes instead of Thor.

    Give me a break. Marvel dropped the ball here, big time.
    Another adoptive mom here. Haven't see the movie yet, but while I might get the why of the comment, it doesn't mean it couldn't be hurtful. While I'm sure I would laugh at the joke in the movie, I would be wondering if some kids weren't hurt.

    Like the above poster, I don't get why it is OK to joke at an adoptees expense, but not at other special interest groups. Either we can accept that a joke is just that and move on, regardless of what group is at the center of the joke, or we can't. Not fair to only call foul for some groups and not others.
     

    EricQelDroma

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    May 6, 2012
    I almost laughed, too; the line is well played. But the laughter stuck in my throat when all of the joke's implications crashed down on me. My daughter never got for a second that it was supposed to be a joke.

    "Are people laughing because they think adopted kids are bad? Am I bad?"
     
  • Doug7856

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Sep 29, 2003
    Did you watch Thor? Really?

    Loki does what he does BECAUSE he finds out that he is not Odin's son. Loki's own feelings about being adopted have bearing on everything he does. The line from this movie aside (which was most likely just intended as a quick joke), Loki is the only one who has a problem with the fact that he is not of the line of Odin. Thor still loves him and thinks of him as his brother, and Frigga and Odin still think of him as their son. In the comics, this only changes after all of the awful things he does.
    I'm not sure you understand what adoption is. If Loki is adopted, he is Odin's son period.

    The fact remains, when Thor is confronted with Loki's list of offenses, he cops out: "he's adopted".

    I'm sure if I read the comic series, I'd have a better understanding of the plot.

    My concern is the message of the movie sent out that adoption is not quite the same as being a "real" son or brother.
     

    EricQelDroma

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    May 6, 2012
    I think what's going on there is our language's lack of precision when dealing with adoption. When we say, "Loki finds out he's not Odin's son," what we really mean is "Loki finds out he's not Odin's biological son" or "Loki finds out he is not genetically descended from Odin." Once adopted, Loki is Odin's "forever son." (That's the language we use in our family, at least, with our elementary-aged children.)

    Reading the comic series shouldn't have much to do with the movies' plots, and even if it does, the comics still only communicate to those who have read them, and movie audiences =/= comic audiences. My daughter and I have had multiple discussions of what "worthy" means when I tell her that you have to be worthy to lift Thor's hammer, which is why the Hulk can't do it in Avengers. To have this "worthy" guy make this cheap adoption joke is cruel and foolish.

    Doug, I agree with you when you say, "My concern is the message of the movie sent out that adoption is not quite the same as being a 'real' son or brother." In fact, I'd go even farther and say that the movie's message in that scene is that adoption is profoundly inferior to being biologically related.

    I often have to stop people in mid-sentence when talking with them about adoption to make these clarifications: "Of course she's my REAL daughter. If you're asking if she's my BIOLOGICAL daughter, then no, she isn't, but that doesn't make her not my REAL daughter." It's enough to make a person crazy.
     

    JenM

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Apr 23, 2007
    I'm not sure you understand what adoption is. If Loki is adopted, he is Odin's son period.
    And that's exactly what Odin tells Loki in Thor when he finds out he's adopted. Twice.

    This is the actual dialogue from Thor (from IMDB):

    Odin discovers Loki holding the Casket of Ancient Winters]
    Odin: STOP!
    Loki: Am I cursed?
    Odin: No.
    Odin: What am I?
    Odin: You are my son.

    [Loki turns and looks at Odin]
    Loki: [features briefly blue and chill] What more than that?... The Casket wasn't the only thing you took from Jotunheim that day, was it?
    Odin: No. In the aftermath of the battle I went into the temple and I found a baby. Small for a Giant's offspring, abandoned, suffering, left to die. Laufey's son.
    Loki: Laufeyson?
    Odin: Yes.
    Loki: Why? You were knee-deep in Jotun blood. Why would you take me?
    Odin: You were an innocent child.
    Loki: No. You took me for a purpose. What was it?... TELL ME!
    Odin: I thought we could unite our kingdoms one day. Bring about an alliance, bring about permanent peace... through you.
    Loki: What?
    Odin: But those plans no longer matter.
    Loki: So I am no more than another stolen relic, locked up here until you might have use of me?
    Odin: Why do you twist my words?
    Loki: You could have told me what I was from the beginning! Why didn't you?
    Odin: You're my son... I wanted only to protect you from the truth...

    Loki: What, because I... I... I am the monster parents tell their children about at night?
    Odin: [unwell] No, no...
    Loki: You know, it all makes sense now, why you favored Thor all these years, because no matter how much you claim to love me, you could never have a Frost Giant sitting on the throne of Asgard!
    [an overcome Odin collapses]
    Loki: Guards! Guards, please help!
    Then, despite repeated assurances throughout the movie that he had always been loved as a son and a brother, Loki threw away because that his jealousy consumed him.

    His adoption wasn't his problem. His jealousy and his extremely bad choices were.

    At the end of that movie, Thor was devastated to have lost Loki, and it was still clear mourning the loss of a brother.

    And I thought the line was funny. It clearly was not intended as a slam against adoption in general (that wouldn't have been funny), but it was just in reference to one particular problem child in an awkward moment.

    Even throughout this movie, it was obvious that Thor still considered Loki a brother.
     

    EMom

    <font color=red>Comes from a long line of all fork
    Joined
    Jul 2, 2007
    I almost laughed, too; the line is well played. But the laughter stuck in my throat when all of the joke's implications crashed down on me. My daughter never got for a second that it was supposed to be a joke.

    "Are people laughing because they think adopted kids are bad? Am I bad?"
    And this is why the, "You're reading too much into it" crowd will never get it. They see the line as just that....a line. A joke maybe. An explanation, perhaps. They are unable to grasp the enormity of the harm such a line can do. It's a joke made at the expense of vulnerable children and IMHO, there is NO excuse for that. What laugh is worth making innocent children wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with them?
     

    JenM

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Apr 23, 2007
    And this is why the, "You're reading too much into it" crowd will never get it. They see the line as just that....a line. A joke maybe. An explanation, perhaps. They are unable to grasp the enormity of the harm such a line can do. It's a joke made at the expense of vulnerable children and IMHO, there is NO excuse for that. What laugh is worth making innocent children wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with them?
    And that's offensive too. Just because someone didn't consider a line offensive doesn't mean that they "don't get it" or insensitive to someone's feelings.

    We just didn't think the line was offensive. It was obvious the line was a reference to Loki and Thor was just trying to backtrack from his defense of him after being reminded that Loki was being extremely awful.

    It was clearly not intended as a slam against adoption in general.

    A few years ago, the movie "Orphan" had a tagline on the poster about how it was harder to love an adopted child as much as your own. That was offensive, and I agreed with the complaints about that poster, and glad the studio changed it.

    But this? No, it's not the same thing at all. Especially since it's amongst two whole movies were Loki was repeatedly told how he had been loved as nothing less than a son and a brother. And even after that line, Thor was still trying to stop Loki and save him - as his brother.
     

    EMom

    <font color=red>Comes from a long line of all fork
    Joined
    Jul 2, 2007
    And that's offensive too. Just because someone didn't consider a line offensive doesn't mean that they "don't get it" or insensitive to someone's feelings.

    We just didn't think the line was offensive. It was obvious the line was a reference to Loki and Thor was just trying to backtrack from his defense of him after being reminded that Loki was being extremely awful.

    It was clearly not intended as a slam against adoption in general.

    A few years ago, the movie "Orphan" had a tagline on the poster about how it was harder to love an adopted child as much as your own. That was offensive, and I agreed with the complaints about that poster, and glad the studio changed it.

    But this? No, it's not the same thing at all. Especially since it's amongst two whole movies were Loki was repeatedly told how he had been loved as nothing less than a son and a brother. And even after that line, Thor was still trying to stop Loki and save him - as his brother.
    I don't expect you or anyone else to be offended by the line. What I would HOPE is that they could open their hearts and minds enough to empathize with adopted children and realize that such a line might well offend/hurt adopted children. It boggles my mind that it is beyond anyone's comprehension how this might (likely would) negatively impact adopted children, especially given the posts from adoptees and adoptive parents explaining that fact in clear detail.

    A Rebel flag does not offend me in the least, but I can grasp how it might offend Blacks. A fraternity "slave auction" might strike one person as merely tasteless, but might cause much stronger emotions in someone whose ancestors had been slaves.

    Of course, the "target" of the act/line/joke will be more offended than a person who is not the target. I don't have to be offended to wrap my head around the fact that some things....especially those that would seriously hurt CHILDREN......might need to be reconsidered as joke material.

    But if you believe if was a fine thing to do and totally worth the joke, even if if was a slap in the face to a lot of kids who will see the movie and walk out hurt, hey.......We're just going to disagree.
     

    sparklynails23

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2009
    I don't think anyone here's being "too sensitive" about anything. Thor was clearly implying that Loki was not a true part of the Odin-line family. Well, guess what? If someone's adopted, they're part of the family. The end, that's it.

    But maybe you’re right. Maybe it's just one line. Maybe one little joke won't hurt anyone. Maybe the next movie should have some throw-away lines about how Fury couldn’t get the job done because he’s black, or how they should have had a man do the Widow’s job, or how this was all the Hulk’s fault somehow because he’s a stupid r—-d. Let’s see how funny “jokes” like that are when spoken by someone kids are supposed to look up to. Maybe next time Captain America can make those jokes instead of Thor.

    Give me a break. Marvel dropped the ball here, big time.
    Have you ever watched the Disney Channel? Cheerleaders are always ditzy. Kids with inhalers are always uncool nerds. Smart kids are uncool nerds. Etc.

    As the mom with an asthmatic son, the inhaler one really bothers me. If you make it uncool to use life-saving meds, kids die. Would they do the same with insulin shots?

    I'm sure I'm being too sensitive, too. It's probably really funny to some people:rolleyes:
     

    Poohforyou

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 16, 2011
    And this is why the, "You're reading too much into it" crowd will never get it. They see the line as just that....a line. A joke maybe. An explanation, perhaps. They are unable to grasp the enormity of the harm such a line can do. It's a joke made at the expense of vulnerable children and IMHO, there is NO excuse for that. What laugh is worth making innocent children wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with them?
    So when a movie or Tv show makes a joke about being fat or a dumb blonde are you equaling outraged? As a parent I don't like anyone making fun of my child but if I can't summon outrage for every offensives "joke" than I deal with any fallout with my child on my own. I don't expect others to feel the same injustices I do. I save my public outrage for bigger issues than a slight to my child. How we as a family is what really matters to my child not what some silly cartoon characters think.
     


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