Direct Purchase benefits announced!

[tjkraz]

I've been an owner for several years and am not sure what the impact on me is.

As an owner there is absolutely no impact on you. Whether you bought your original contract direct or via resale, you will retain access to the Disney Collection, Adventurer Collection and Concierge Collection.

What is under dispute is the impact on resale value should you decide to get ride of some/all of your points. Points sold resale after March 20 will no longer be able to access the Disney, Adv or Concierge collections.

I think it's fair to say that most people believe resale values will fall to some degree after March 20. Some number of buyers will opt to purchase direct rather than resale in order to have access to these options. That reduction in demand for resale contracts should depress prices to a degree. But there are a lot of differing opinions on how much values may drop.

If you continue to use your points until they expire, this change has no direct impact on you whatsoever.

 

[cseca]

I really don't know Disney values the FastPasses but DVC does pay for the right to issue them. The interesting thing about the immediate FastPasses is that they are not something that you can purchase. Universal sells their Front of the Line passes so you can easily attach a dollar amount to them. These FastPasses are rather difficult to come buy--you can't just open your wallet and acquire the privilege.

Going back to your other post, I've never heard of any member perk telephone surveys so I'd certainly take those comments with a grain of salt. However DVC has done several web / email surveys in the last year or so and if the immediate FastPasses were among the options, I tend to think they were very highly regarded by members.



That's exactly why they are controlled.

It's been suggested over the years that DVC should offer these FastPasses as perks to members during their stays. The logic is typically along the lines of "it wouldn't cost Disney anything."

But consider how many DVC members are staying on property at any given time. There are over 3000 DVC guest rooms at Walt Disney World now, most with an occupancy of 9 or more (I counted the lockoffs as a 2B.) That's 25,000+ DVC members, friends and family on property at any given time. Give them each an immediate FastPass to use per day and it could easily have a dramatic impact on wait times for rides like Soarin, Toy Story Mania or Rock N Rollercoaster.

In small, controlled doses, the FPs don't have much impact. But that's exactly why Disney goes out of its way to monitor and control their issuance. The parks aren't going to be slaves to DVC point sales when they have millions of guests to satisfy every year.

Thanks!
Interesting to think about the real cost of these FPs to WDW and DVC.
I still think they're taking the cheapie way out tho...
I'm sure they'll get a lot more biters (sales) if they go with the free AP or free cruises.
Again it's just MO...

Really appreciate your thoughts on it tho.

 

[Dean]

I've been an owner for several years and am not sure what the impact on me is.

Actually the impact may be positive for some current owners, esp if the change limits the number of people that will participate in the cash equivalent exchanges over time. It also may improve the changes of future resorts.

 

[disneynutz]

Actually the impact may be positive for some current owners, esp if the change limits the number of people that will participate in the cash equivalent exchanges over time. It also may improve the changes of future resorts.

Or if not enough people exchange, Disney may have trouble finding a exchange company who is interested in doing business.

Bill

 

[Chuck S]

Or if not enough people exchange, Disney may have trouble finding a exchange company who is interested in doing business.

Bill

That could be a blessing in disguise. If RCI or II refuse to exchange with DVC because of lack of units, DVC could negotiate directly with either othe r systems, like Marriott, or upper tier individual resorts for cash, expanding Buena Vista trades.

 

[yarlenna]

I am 65 years old and no kids. I had been thinking of getting membership, but I know I would only use it for ten more years then I would have to sell it. I think Disney just made it not possble for me and my DH. Grrrrr

 

[Sammie]

What everyone has to remember and TJ has done a good job of explaining this, there are perks DVC can offer that they control and there are perks and benefits like Fast Pass that they do not control.

DVC, might have the word Disney at the beginning but when you start putting a monetary value on something like fast passes it might as well be too different companies. Same with discounts on tickets.

There is definitely a value to Instant Fast passes, especially if Disney resorts offers them to a certain level of guest such as concierge or deluxe resort guests.

Very interesting survey, it would seem that to Disney and DVC, soon all guests will not be equal anymore.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2653856

It is possible that DVC could offer similar benefits to big point holder and or direct sales; such as room ready by 8am, Magical Express without charge and EMH for those that qualify and none for those that don't.

Changes are coming and I think many will be shocked at the path chosen.

 

[cseca]

...
Very interesting survey, it would seem that to Disney and DVC, soon all guests will not be equal anymore.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2653856

It is possible that DVC could offer similar benefits to big point holder and or direct sales; such as room ready by 8am, Magical Express without charge and EMH for those that qualify and none for those that don't.

Changes are coming and I think many will be shocked at the path chosen.

Yeah, it's interesting to see where DVC guests will fall into this whole Disney guests "caste" system. I wonder if we will be completely separate or if we will be adopted into one of their levels (full price guests, discounted guests, etc.).
And if this is their way of easing out of discounted rates, I also wonder how it will affect DVC rental rates.

This is all so intriguing...

 

[Dean]

Or if not enough people exchange, Disney may have trouble finding a exchange company who is interested in doing business.

Bill

Actually just having Disney's name and pictures in their book is a pretty big draw for the exchange company even if there are no exchanges.

ETA: DVC has their own exchange company which they own, BVTC. They could hook up with Marriott, Westin, etc there are RCI or II really wouldn't add much to what that options would provide.

 

[Jason@dvcstore]

Most members(I understand there are exceptions) that would have "taken advantage" of these "perks" are probably not concerned or dont understand that the value trading isnt so great. That leads me to guess that they dont do much research or math, they want to cruise(or other) they cruise without much research or math.

So that leads me to believe that those that like these perks wont be buying resale to begin with. They want to buy they buy directly without much research or math.

This might be true.

Jason

 

[Dean]

This might be true.

Jason

I would expect resale buyers as a group are far more educated than retail buyers because by the very nature of going resale, they've done some investigation and put some time and effort into getting information. They also either have some prior knowledge of DVC and/or have left a sales presentation without buying. That's not to say that all such decisions are good ones. IMO, no one could go into a DVC purchase with the intent of using the cash equivalent exchanges routinely and consider it a good and rational decision. It's different if one has use or lose points or ends up in a different situation and has the points extra. Some might also have bought a larger contract than they needed for any one of a number of reasons and need to dispose of the extra points.

 

[Mjasp]

I would expect resale buyers as a group are far more educated than retail buyers because by the very nature of going resale, they've done some investigation and put some time and effort into getting information. They also either have some prior knowledge of DVC and/or have left a sales presentation without buying. That's not to say that all such decisions are good ones. IMO, no one could go into a DVC purchase with the intent of using the cash equivalent exchanges routinely and consider it a good and rational decision. It's different if one has use or lose points or ends up in a different situation and has the points extra. Some might also have bought a larger contract than they needed for any one of a number of reasons and need to dispose of the extra points.

Dean...Disney is not selling their TS pts any more expensive than Starwood or Marriott...2BR units are selling for over $20,000 at TS resorts and when exchanged through RCI net the same week as a $1 e-bay purchase.
So if someone buys DVC resale to use for Disney and exchanging I think they are doing OK because they are able to stay on Disney property whenever they want to and they don't have to worry about trading to get into DVC. Also, IMO they will have the strongest trade in RCI.
Don't you agree?

 

[Dean]

Dean...Disney is not selling their TS pts any more expensive than Starwood or Marriott...2BR units are selling for over $20,000 at TS resorts and when exchanged through RCI net the same week as a $1 e-bay purchase.
So if someone buys DVC resale to use for Disney and exchanging I think they are doing OK because they are able to stay on Disney property whenever they want to and they don't have to worry about trading to get into DVC. Also, IMO they will have the strongest trade in RCI.
Don't you agree?

My point was specific to buying to exchange which means you'd be buying more points than you needed otherwise. Making this assumption, DVC is a poor vehicle for exchanging. BTW, so are Marriott and Starwood retail you mention, this issue is not unique to Disney, it applies to any high cost, high demand system. As you note, it's also possible to get something that exchanges just as well, often better, for essentially nothing or close to it. In addition, there are other negatives with DVC used for exchanging (and a couple of positives as well). DVC limits the resorts available that you can exchange into. Their corporate exchange agreements requires you pay a set price (# of pts) and prevents you from trading up. You also lose direct RCI access and the ability to do the exchanges yourself online and off hours. The other aspect that plays in is that while DVC may be in the same ballpark with upfront costs, it has not been historically looking at yearly fees. Comparing to Marriott exchanging, there are far more options and ways to lower costs and/or to get more benefits exchanging and using, esp for lockoff's.

A couple of items that are unique to DVC in this line of thinking is that you DO have the ability to decide how many points you need and tailor to just those you'd use at DVC assuming you will travel at least once within each 3 year period. Also DVC is unique in that the points are somewhat of a liquid commodity and can be easily rented. As I acknowledged there can be unique circumstances such as you need more points later but not now and thus have extra points. Or you buy a resale contract that is larger than you need due to availability or price. Or maybe you just want to exchange once or twice. Still a bad choice for the cash type options but not as much for RCI/II. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. However, I think most people that buy in this situation do so for the wrong reasons and don't fit into one of the reasonable exceptions. They buy because of their comfort with Disney, because of errant assumptions about the exchange options and the big one, because they are afraid or unwilling to learn beyond DVC and thus they pay for their decisions often to the tune of tens of thousands of $$$ over the life of their contract.

In the spirit of completeness, the positives to this issue for DVC is that you don't have to pay a yearly fee and the exchange fees are reduced. Overall the negatives FAR outweigh these few positives for usage routinely in this area. One could buy less DVC points and something else and waste half the years with the other option and still often come out ahead.

 

[Chuck S]

Moderator Note:

Several posts suggesting ways to work around ROFR have been removed, as well as posts quoting/responding to those posts.

A reminder that the DIS does not allow discussion of ways to work around established and published Disney/DVC policies.

Thanks.

 

[king974]

Moderator Note:

Several posts suggesting ways to work around ROFR have been removed, as well as posts quoting/responding to those posts.

A reminder that the DIS does not allow discussion of ways to work around established and published Disney/DVC policies.

Thanks.

Apparently my posts pertaining to avoiding Disney rule changes are afoul of the posting rules here. For that I am sorry.

I hope that posting the true intentions to the reasons Disney has changed these rules are not against posting rules.

Below is how USA Today is reporting the changes:

http://travel.usatoday.com/alliance...1/01/Walt-Disney-World-Resort-Update/140905/1

DVC reduces benefits for aftermarket purchasers

With the economy rendering finances tight for most guests, many prospective Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members have opted to find a lower-cost alternative by purchasing their ownership interests from those who can no longer afford to maintain their existing interests, or who need the immediate cash provided by selling their DVC ownership points on the aftermarket. Unfortunately for Disney, this means that new DVC members are not buying directly from Disney, cutting DVC revenue. With the number of prospective members shrinking, this is proving problematic for Disney.

In seeking to stem the aftermarket sales of Disney Vacation Club points and increase the incentive to purchase points directly from Disney, DVC has instituted a new policy limited exchanges for DVC points not purchased directly from Disney. Any members who purchase points from anyone other than Disney Vacation Development, Inc., on or after March 21 will only be able to use those points for stays at DVC resorts and for RCI, Club Cordial, and Club Intrawest exchanges. Those points would no longer be able to be used for reservations through the Concierge Collection, the Adventurer Collection, or the Disney Collection (which includes non-DVC Disney resorts and the Disney Cruise Line).

Since those soon-to-be-restricted exchanges are not part of the official ownership interests and are instead benefits provided by DVC, those rights will sunset for new aftermarket purchases. Only those who purchased their points directly from Disney or via the aftermarket on or prior to March 20 will have access to them.

All standard membership activities, such as banking, borrowing and transferring DVC points, will continue to be available to all members. While this will not have much of an effect on prospective members who have no plans to use their points for anything other than staying at DVC resorts or trading out through RCI, Club Cordial or Club Intrawest, anyone who had plans of other uses for their points and were considering an aftermarket purchase may need to adjust their plans.


Disney has shown that the bottom line and profits are far more valuable to them then the value the purchaser maintains. After 13 years of ownership on my first purchase I am saddened to see Disney is just another company that does not care about its customers.

I also fear this is just the beginning of major reductions in the value of DVC ownership. It was one thing to lose the discounted tickets and golf, this intentional devaluation of my property is a entirely different matter.

 

[bicker]

However, that argument is based on the erroneous assumption that your property had value that it actually did not have (i.e., the value associated with the fact that those benefits that are affected by this change were to be available to buyers should you resell).

 

[Dean]

Apparently my posts pertaining to avoiding Disney rule changes are afoul of the posting rules here. For that I am sorry.

I hope that posting the true intentions to the reasons Disney has changed these rules are not against posting rules.

Below is how USA Today is reporting the changes:

http://travel.usatoday.com/alliance...1/01/Walt-Disney-World-Resort-Update/140905/1

DVC reduces benefits for aftermarket purchasers

With the economy rendering finances tight for most guests, many prospective Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members have opted to find a lower-cost alternative by purchasing their ownership interests from those who can no longer afford to maintain their existing interests, or who need the immediate cash provided by selling their DVC ownership points on the aftermarket. Unfortunately for Disney, this means that new DVC members are not buying directly from Disney, cutting DVC revenue. With the number of prospective members shrinking, this is proving problematic for Disney.

In seeking to stem the aftermarket sales of Disney Vacation Club points and increase the incentive to purchase points directly from Disney, DVC has instituted a new policy limited exchanges for DVC points not purchased directly from Disney. Any members who purchase points from anyone other than Disney Vacation Development, Inc., on or after March 21 will only be able to use those points for stays at DVC resorts and for RCI, Club Cordial, and Club Intrawest exchanges. Those points would no longer be able to be used for reservations through the Concierge Collection, the Adventurer Collection, or the Disney Collection (which includes non-DVC Disney resorts and the Disney Cruise Line).

Since those soon-to-be-restricted exchanges are not part of the official ownership interests and are instead benefits provided by DVC, those rights will sunset for new aftermarket purchases. Only those who purchased their points directly from Disney or via the aftermarket on or prior to March 20 will have access to them.

All standard membership activities, such as banking, borrowing and transferring DVC points, will continue to be available to all members. While this will not have much of an effect on prospective members who have no plans to use their points for anything other than staying at DVC resorts or trading out through RCI, Club Cordial or Club Intrawest, anyone who had plans of other uses for their points and were considering an aftermarket purchase may need to adjust their plans.


Disney has shown that the bottom line and profits are far more valuable to them then the value the purchaser maintains. After 13 years of ownership on my first purchase I am saddened to see Disney is just another company that does not care about its customers.

I also fear this is just the beginning of major reductions in the value of DVC ownership. It was one thing to lose the discounted tickets and golf, this intentional devaluation of my property is a entirely different matter.

The intent was clearly documented early in this thread and everyone agrees (all sides) that it's Disney's way of improving their profits/value. The points of contention include whether they have the right to to do so, whether it is reasonable to do so and whether they are responsible for resale values. My views are they have the right, it is reasonable in the timeshare world and they are not responsible for our resale values.

 

[maminnie]

Apparently my posts pertaining to avoiding Disney rule changes are afoul of the posting rules here. For that I am sorry.

I hope that posting the true intentions to the reasons Disney has changed these rules are not against posting rules.

Below is how USA Today is reporting the changes:

http://travel.usatoday.com/alliance...1/01/Walt-Disney-World-Resort-Update/140905/1

DVC reduces benefits for aftermarket purchasers

With the economy rendering finances tight for most guests, many prospective Disney Vacation Club (DVC) members have opted to find a lower-cost alternative by purchasing their ownership interests from those who can no longer afford to maintain their existing interests, or who need the immediate cash provided by selling their DVC ownership points on the aftermarket. Unfortunately for Disney, this means that new DVC members are not buying directly from Disney, cutting DVC revenue. With the number of prospective members shrinking, this is proving problematic for Disney.

In seeking to stem the aftermarket sales of Disney Vacation Club points and increase the incentive to purchase points directly from Disney, DVC has instituted a new policy limited exchanges for DVC points not purchased directly from Disney. Any members who purchase points from anyone other than Disney Vacation Development, Inc., on or after March 21 will only be able to use those points for stays at DVC resorts and for RCI, Club Cordial, and Club Intrawest exchanges. Those points would no longer be able to be used for reservations through the Concierge Collection, the Adventurer Collection, or the Disney Collection (which includes non-DVC Disney resorts and the Disney Cruise Line).

Since those soon-to-be-restricted exchanges are not part of the official ownership interests and are instead benefits provided by DVC, those rights will sunset for new aftermarket purchases. Only those who purchased their points directly from Disney or via the aftermarket on or prior to March 20 will have access to them.

All standard membership activities, such as banking, borrowing and transferring DVC points, will continue to be available to all members. While this will not have much of an effect on prospective members who have no plans to use their points for anything other than staying at DVC resorts or trading out through RCI, Club Cordial or Club Intrawest, anyone who had plans of other uses for their points and were considering an aftermarket purchase may need to adjust their plans.


Disney has shown that the bottom line and profits are far more valuable to them then the value the purchaser maintains. After 13 years of ownership on my first purchase I am saddened to see Disney is just another company that does not care about its customers.

I also fear this is just the beginning of major reductions in the value of DVC ownership. It was one thing to lose the discounted tickets and golf, this intentional devaluation of my property is a entirely different matter.

Thank you for posting this article.

Disappointing to say the least.......

 

[king974]

However, that argument is based on the erroneous assumption that your property had value that it actually did not have (i.e., the value associated with the fact that those benefits that are affected by this change were to be available to buyers should you resell).

The only thing erroneous is this response.

On March 21 a property will have a value of less then what it was on March 20. It has been well documented that Disney changed the benefit to devalue the current value of ownership to increase Disney's profit.

Properties will have one value on or before March 20; They will have a lesser value on and after March 21. That is factual, not an assumption. So for one to state the value did not have an actually value that was greater prior to this change is disingenuous at best, hyperbole at worst.

 

[king974]

The intent was clearly documented early in this thread and everyone agrees (all sides) that it's Disney's way of improving their profits/value. The points of contention include whether they have the right to to do so, whether it is reasonable to do so and whether they are responsible for resale values. My views are they have the right, it is reasonable in the timeshare world and they are not responsible for our resale values.

My view is that although they have the power, I would refrain from calling it a right. It is not reasonable in any stretch of the imagination for Disney to not have a responsibility for resale value.

ROFR is solely about establishing a certain re-sale value. Maintaining and updating properties is partially about retaining retaining a re-sale value. Changing benefits was solely about lowering the value so Disney can profit at current owners expense.

In my opinion Disney has also devalued direct purchase ownership and in the long run my effect sales. By making a DVC ownership worthless on the secondary market they have taken away a key purchasing point.