Direct Purchase benefits announced!

[Chuck S]

As far as the Prison Cell decor comment, remember that by law they can not substantially change what was represented at purchase, as far as quality of furnishings, etc. So I think that is just a comment to be argumentative.

Many of the other issues listed, food quality, DDP, lack of park constution and upgrades, are totally out of DVC control.

Please, let's keep this thread on the topic of DVC.

 

[tidefan]

While I agree there are serious issues with delineation between direct and resale purchases, there may be a few silver linings for some.

For instance, I think that this may make me more likely to do a resale add-on in the future rather than through Disney. I mean I already have over 300 direct purchased points, so that is plenty to take advantage of any of the collection options. If resale prices drop, I think it would be a great opportunity to make a "mixed" portfolio of points at a lower cost than we could have done previously for our core DVC stays.

 

[going/again]

They're advertising direct purchases just like Toyota etc is. You're not seriously saying that you can't tell the difference between advertising and contractual protections are you? I assume you're just trying to be absurd to illustrate, if so, try another one that might work better.

Not trying to be absurd as you put it, no need to try another this one works perfect for me

 

[Maistre Gracey]

As far as the Prison Cell decor comment, remember that by law they can not substantially change what was represented at purchase, as far as quality of furnishings, etc. So I think that is just a comment to be argumentative.

No, that comment was not meant to be argumentative, it was meant to illustrate what could happen. (Whether or not that specific example could actually happen is debate for another time, but that example was meant to be an exaggeration.)

On the other hand, the animals and parks could indeed be eliminated.

MG

 

[Chuck S]

Now, here is an interesting thought that could also throw some fuel on the fire. Remember, OKW was extended to 2057, and resale purchasers have had the "opportunity" to extend.

If a resale is purchased after the deadline, and the new owner decided to extend the contract for $25pp, would DVC then allow them to use the Collection options during the last 15 years of the contract, would they "give" them that full ability as part of the deal, or would the contract continue to be limited, even during the extended years?

My guess would be they would remove the restriction for the contract as an extension incentive...but you never know.

 

[JimMIA]

Perks come and go. We've only been members for 6 1/2 years and we've seen both good additions [AP discount; the ability to get DDP (mixed blessing, to be sure -- good at first, we rarely eat onsite now due to the degredation of the menus caused by DDP); free Internet; HH option at OKW, etc] and not so good deletions [loss of free valet parking, replacement of the member magazine with Disney Files, etc].

The other thing that bears repeating in this discussion is that the pixie-dust blinded direct purchasers certainly better remember that the benefits THEY are getting for buying direct are only perks...and they could be removed from everyone at any time with one swipe of the Mouse's pen.

If the direct purchaser doubts that, all they have to do is insist that DVC put in writing that they will enjoy the existing "benefits" for the entire length of their ownership. When they do that, they'll get a reality check...which they'll probably ignore and buy anyway.

 

[Sammie]

When I bought in, there were very few perks compared to what is available today.

I could care less about the perks, even the AP discount.

What I do care about is the basics, that everyone is on equal footing to book rooms with 11 months for home resort and 7 months for outside of home resort.

I don't walk reservations, too much hassle, but I don't care if others do.

The tier benefit program does concern me because perks cost DVC money so I really feel we are going to see a program that will reward some and punish others and what they will use to make that distinction wont be perks.

 

[CarolAnnC]

What some seem to not recognize here is that a timeshare is a commodity with an expiration date. There is going to be some point in time where, for example, my non extended OKW contract will be worth nil if I wanted to resell it.

Where that cut off point of devaluation lies is anyone's guess at this time. But, if I continue to decline any further offers to extend that contract's expiration date, then it will definitely lose its value as the expiration date draws closer.

I have to look at all the years and years of vacations that contract has brought to my family. What we have been paying in dues far exceeds our initial buy in..

 

[nukker7]

The tier benefit program does concern me because perks cost DVC money so I really feel we are going to see a program that will reward some and punish others and what they will use to make that distinction wont be perks.

And on top of that, WE on the low side(i only have 210pts) will be paying for these perks that we can't use through our dues

 

[DeeCee735]

But in terms of DVC, honestly I'm still hard pressed to see any real decline since we became members. We have new resorts to enjoy with larger, more luxurious accommodations. Older resorts are being retrofitted to include things like the sleeper chairs. (Won't see the OKW refurb first-hand until July so I hate to comment on that one.) Perks are probably a wash at worst--AP discount and free Internet added, valet parking & LOS ticket discount subtracted.

I know some have reported issues with cleanliness, maintenance, room assignments and so on. Fortunately we've been immune from most of that. We've had a broken dishwasher and TV over the years but those were resolved same-day.

Fortunately the program still suits us. If that changes, we'll deal with our points accordingly.

Hear Hear! Couldn't have said it better

While all our contracts, original and add-ons have been direct purchases through Disney, it was never due to any reason that direct over resale rules may differ. It was quicker, easier, and to us a more reliable way of purchasing. We originally bought in 2000, with add-ons in early 2000's, and the most recent being with the current incentive AND a cast member discount (our son is in the CP), making the price per point equal to the average resale price at AKV, maybe slightly lower

With that said, had we purchased some of, or all of our contracts resale, I would be disappointed about losing the cruise on points option. I know, I know, so many people say it's not a good use of points, but to us the alternative of laying out thousands of dollars to cruise, is an even worse use of our cash! We much prefer the cruise on points option over the cruise on cash option. We have more than re-couped the cost of our ownership in all the vacations we've been able to take on points over the last 10 years, and greatly look forward to our future vacations, and above all, the option to send our children on their vacations as they grow into independent adults.

However, I wouldn't be that disappointed, as we have greater options as DVC grows (in DVC resorts and locations), thereby different things to look forward to in the future. One of the biggest "perks" we as DVC members (by resale or direct), can look to enjoy remains in tact.....RCI trade outs. All of DVC members still have the option to travel all over the world on their points. While this is something that can always change, to date it has not, and in MHO this is a nice draw for those members looking to sell, and for those looking to buy in. None of us are restricted to staying in DVC resorts in WDW, California or Hawaii (as if that would be so terrible), so I don't really think I'd be all that disappointed had we bought resale anyway.

I do think the effects of these recent changes will pass and the resale market won't suffer as much as some seem to think it will.

Just my two cents, for whatever its worth! Happy planning everyone!

 

[Lumiere1313]

Will the dues be less for people who purchase a resale after March 2011?

Shouldn't they be less since they have fewer options?

 

[Deb & Bill]

...One of the biggest "perks" we as DVC members (by resale or direct), can look to enjoy remains in tact.....RCI trade outs. ...

You might choose to consider that a "perk". I don't. They can take that one, too.

However, I'm happy to be able to use my points at my home resorts and a few other DVC resorts.

 

[Dean]

While I agree there are serious issues with delineation between direct and resale purchases, there may be a few silver linings for some.

For instance, I think that this may make me more likely to do a resale add-on in the future rather than through Disney. I mean I already have over 300 direct purchased points, so that is plenty to take advantage of any of the collection options. If resale prices drop, I think it would be a great opportunity to make a "mixed" portfolio of points at a lower cost than we could have done previously for our core DVC stays.

Other than they many not allow you to combine them into a single master contract going forward. That unto itself is not that big a deal unless they change the fee structure in some way such as to a base amount or club amount plus a lower per point where multiple contracts would be more fees than combined.

 

[Chuck S]

Will the dues be less for people who purchase a resale after March 2011?

Shouldn't they be less since they have fewer options?

No, our dues are based on the operating expenses of our respective home resorts, the associated property taxes, insurance and a set percentage management fee paid to Disney. Our dues do not pay for the trade out options, those are covered by income received when the points used for the trade are turned into cash rooms. The cash income, in theory, offsets the cost of the trade.

 

[JimMIA]

Will the dues be less for people who purchase a resale after March 2011?

Shouldn't they be less since they have fewer options?

That's an interesting question, although the cost of administering the Collection options is likely a very small component of our dues. Most of our dues costs come from the costs of operating the resorts -- taxes, insurance, staff payroll, transportation services, etc.

But there is undoubtedly some cost of having MS book cruises, ABD's, etc. For an individual contract, that cost would probably be pennies, and in the short term, the number of accounts affected starts at zero and would grow rather slowly. But over time, those costs multiplied by thousands of contracts it could add up to enough to justify a class-action lawsuit suit Certainly timeshare lawsuits have been filed for far less.

Of course, we all pay for things provided by DVC that we don't use, but we have the option of using them. If we are prohibited from using them, I guess the legal picture would change.

OTOH, the press releases said those things were being provided by DVD and were not a part of ownership interests, so DVD could probably avoid the issue by simply identifying and paying those costs themselves.

 

[Dean]

Not trying to be absurd as you put it, no need to try another this one works perfect for me

If you're really being serious that you can't separate advertising from underlying facts then you have bigger problems than the issue at hand. Certainly there are limits on advertising related to timeshares but it is always going to be aimed at getting you interested. Look at infomercials. The idea is to get you to act on emotion but the underlying facts don't change because you do.

Now, here is an interesting thought that could also throw some fuel on the fire. Remember, OKW was extended to 2057, and resale purchasers have had the "opportunity" to extend.

If a resale is purchased after the deadline, and the new owner decided to extend the contract for $25pp, would DVC then allow them to use the Collection options during the last 15 years of the contract, would they "give" them that full ability as part of the deal, or would the contract continue to be limited, even during the extended years?

My guess would be they would remove the restriction for the contract as an extension incentive...but you never know.

My GUESS is that IF they allow the extension for future resales, they would also allow those points to be brought into the inside group. It is also a direction they could go with extensions in general, a carrot they could dangle. Lots of possibilities going forward.

When I bought in, there were very few perks compared to what is available today.

I could care less about the perks, even the AP discount.

What I do care about is the basics, that everyone is on equal footing to book rooms with 11 months for home resort and 7 months for outside of home resort.

I don't walk reservations, too much hassle, but I don't care if others do.

The tier benefit program does concern me because perks cost DVC money so I really feel we are going to see a program that will reward some and punish others and what they will use to make that distinction wont be perks.

Certainly the right to use your home resort is contractual though specifics might change and for DVC members, the option at the 7 month window (or any applicable change) is safe as long as the club is safe. I haven't walked though I often did day by day before but if I want something specific and it's allowed, I may. However, philosophically I do feel allowing walking is not a good move because I feel that those wanting to get in should be ahead of one who wants to change their dates (for whatever reason) and I believe the costs associated are enough to matter. As for perks, there is essentially little to no cost to DVC for those with limited exceptions and limited admin costs, even for the exchange options. Those programs pay their own way which is one of the reasons the points are so high for those options.

Will the dues be less for people who purchase a resale after March 2011?

Shouldn't they be less since they have fewer options?

As I noted above, there is essentially little to no cost for those programs overall but if you want to look at it that way, yes future resale buyers will be subsidizing those programs for the rest going forward by a tiny amount. However, there are many people that subsidize programs now and if a VIP system ever happens, there will be far more discrepancies. No one uses every option to the same way everyone else does. Some call a lot, some use the laundry, pool exercise area, etc more than others. It may get worse between resale and retail going forward.

You might choose to consider that a "perk". I don't. They can take that one, too.

However, I'm happy to be able to use my points at my home resorts and a few other DVC resorts.

While I also do not see RCI or BVTC as valuable, they are perks as compared to contractual obligations. Personally I'd rather see the RCI (or II) membership move to individual where members could join and pay yearly if they wanted. I do realize though that it would hurt the occasional or rare exchanger while helping those of us more involved with other timeshares.

 

[DVC Mike]

No, our dues are based on the operating expenses of our respective home resorts, the associated property taxes, insurance and a set percentage management fee paid to Disney. Our dues do not pay for the trade out options, those are covered by income received when the points used for the trade are turned into cash rooms. The cash income, in theory, offsets the cost of the trade.

Yep, the cost of the Disney Collection, Adventurer Collection, Concierge Collection is not paid for by us, but by the developer.

Check your Member Benefits Guide. Things like the Disney Collection, Adventurer Collection, Concierge Collection, and AP discounts are all offered by Disney Vacation Development (DVD), the unit that builds the resorts and then sells the memberships.

They are - pure and simple - sales and marketing tools to entice people to purchase an ownership interest.

All of these special programs may be modified or terminated at any time by DVD without notice to, or the consent of any purchaser.

The cost of these programs is not passed on to members and is not included in the annual dues we pay.

I am not defending DVD but I can see how they'd want to differentiate resale versus direct and make it more enticing to purchase direct.

 

[Bangerang]

The comments this community has posted on this DVC policy change have been great. It shows how when everyone comes together the whole is greater than its parts. I hope that the decision makers at Disney/DVC read these comments, and learn from them.

This change sure seems like something that is the brainchild of a low-level executive who is just out of MBA school. Some of you have pointed out that this policy change has violated the community's trust. Unfortunately most business schools, graduate or otherwise, have stopped teaching about the power and profitability of consumer trust.

Some of us have commented on this change as being no different than previous changes to "perks" - like the valet parking. There is a big difference though. In the past, perks have been given, or changed for all of us. In other words, no matter how you got your points - you are a member of the DVC community.

Unlike other timeshares, the DVC community is active and informed. No other timeshare group has so many websites and forums (disboards, ***********, dvcnews, etc.) devoted to member owners. This shows the uniqueness of DVC… that its owners help to make it something different and magical.

This latest policy divides the community. The unspoken message from Disney is that if you buy your points through resale, you are a "second class citizen". Based on some posts in this thread, this message has already begun to creep into the way we think about each other. This bell cannot be un-rung, and DVC has shown what they think about the resale owners.

After reading every post in this thread it's safe to say that whether you believe this change will affect you or not, everyone agrees that eliminations of "perks" will continue and that no owner, direct or resale, is safe. Yet more evidence of lost trust in DVC. In the end, loss of trust equals loss of revenue and timeshare sales are all about establishing trust.

The funny thing about trust is that once it’s been violated, it can never be fully restored. DVC has violated a trust that has built up over the past 20 years and because of the hundreds of other poor examples in this industry, DVC is NEVER going to be able to gain it back.

Yes, DVC is a business and exists to make a profit but it is possible to make a profit and provide a great product with perks. Walt Disney knew this, as does this community.

Another theme pointed out by our members is that DVC realizes that these lost perks do have value. If that value didn't exist, DVC wouldn't have removed the perks for some instead of for all, like they did with valet service. If free valet service were such a strong selling point then DVC would have renegotiated with the provider to continue it.

DVC is banking on the perception that there is so much value in the ability to use points outside of the DVC system that buyers are willing to pay a 30-40%, or more, premium for direct purchases. Would you have paid 30-40% more for free valet service?

If it's true that this policy change justifies the 30-40% premium for direct purchases, it also means that the resale value should be reduced *by the same amount* since they have *lost* that value (DVC - are you listening?). Over time, this will lead to drastic reductions in resale value - especially since we can now expect more changes in the future that further make distinctions between the "First Class" citizens (Direct Purchases) and "second class" citizens (resale purchases).

Taking into account these realities, DVC's current $130/$120 price per point for direct purchases seems overpriced. Even if I don't plan to resell my points, I now have to factor this reduced resale price into the equation. (Perhaps I'm unique but I'd be surprised if every one of you didn't take that into consideration the next time you think about adding on.) As of Tuesday, direct purchases are no longer worth the same price that they were on Monday. If their current incentives plus extra bonuses are any indication, DVC thinks so too.

As other DISBOARD members have said, it is now time to look at the points as though every perk or bonus is removed, and that the use is restricted to your home resort. If you look at it this way, now is a GREAT time to purchase resale. WDW isn't going away and most of us want to continue to vacation there.

Another great point is that, even if resale prices adjust down, point rentals continue to have a going rate of around $10 per point - even in this economy. As the economy recovers rental prices will rise too.

If you haven't considered it before, right now could be the perfect time to jump into the renting market. After all cash can be banked and doesn't expire or lose its perks.

BTW, I'm thinking about pulling together some information about renting points to give to all of you in light of this "new reality". I don’t want to hijack this thread so If you would like that, just PM me and let me know what sort of questions you have about renting points, or any stories about how renting points made sense for you.

 

[Happy Birthday Cat]

My GUESS is that IF they allow the extension for future resales, they would also allow those points to be brought into the inside group. It is also a direction they could go with extensions in general, a carrot they could dangle. Lots of possibilities going forward.

Could this be part of the long term strategy? It could set them up nicely for future profits from this change. Makes a lot of sense even if they end up stumbling into it.

HBC

 

[DVC Mike]

The unspoken message from Disney is that if you buy your points through resale, you are a "second class citizen". Based on some posts in this thread, this message has already begun to creep into the way we think about each other. This bell cannot be un-rung, and DVC has shown what they think about the resale owners.

The message is simple - DVD wants to sell more ownership interests, and needs to differentiate it's product (and corresponding higher price) from the resale market.

By limiting certain perks provided by DVD to original purchasers (and grandfathered resales purchases), DVD is stating that you only get all the current perks by purchasing direct.