Difference between the fires and Katrina

[Mr Man]

You can call Manhattan an evacuation if you like, in the same way that office building is said to be evacuated when there is a gas leak. But a true emergency evacuation involves trying to EMPTY a place, and no one emptied Manhattan on 9/11. People who lived in the borough went home; no one told them to pack up their children and Grandma's china and walk to New Jersey. To me the presence of children and the infirm makes all the difference; they have to be carried out by someone. Also, being evacuated generally means NOT knowing exactly where you are going when you leave, which makes a huge difference, too.

New Orleans WAS evacuated before Katrina, with absolutely remarkable efficiency, too. The official evacuation started on Saturday at 8 am, and in the 36 hours of contraflow traffic management, 1 million people left the city, even though the Corps of Engineers had predicted that would take nearly 72 hours. That's really an impressive figure, because if you've ever driven in NOLA, you know that there are only a couple of ways in or out, and I-10 tends to have some really notorious bottlenecks on the west side of town.

Add to that the numbers of people who left at other times, and those who "vertically evacuated" to high-rise hotels, and there really were comparatively few people left directly in the path of the flood, thank God.

Also, there were a lot of holdouts who initially managed OK in the flood, getting up to the second floor of their homes with enough food and water to last awhile. However, with no way to contact the outside world and afraid for their lives to try to go out because of what they were hearing on their radios, many of them eventually succumbed to dehydration or the heat. A LOT of the troopers who went in and found people dead in their homes found evidence that they had been alive after the flood. Most of the rest got out eventually via rescue. The breach in the 17th St. Canal wasn't sealed until September 10th, 12 days after the hurricane hit.

Makes sense to me (and to Eclectic, consider the nit picked ) I can see the similarities in the numbers of people who evacuated in the different scenarios discussed. Timescales and affected areas (geography) are obviously different for all three.

I see it like this:

Katrina- Mandatory evacuation- had 2-3 days advance notice (stay behinds had a rough time tm all rights reserved).
CA- Emergency evacuation. 30 minutes advance notice in some cases up to 2 hours (stay behinds are likely dead).
9/11- Voluntary evacuation. Towers fell in 2 hours approx (stay behinds watched the carnage on TV or went out in the streets and helped).

Regards,

 

[eclectics]

I seem to remember hearing that the Governor of Louisiana was having her hair done as people in No were drowning if you want to play that game....

And Nagin sat on his hands like a moron and shrugged his shoulders. We get it. My frustration is directed towards those who blame everyone (including the victim) EXCEPT the Bush administration. Everyone (in EQUAL parts, not Nagin/Blanco 99% and Bush 1%) is responsible.

 

[Mr Man]

And Nagin sat on his hands like a moron and shrugged his shoulders. We get it. My frustration is directed towards those who blame everyone (including the victim) EXCEPT the Bush administration. Everyone (in EQUAL parts, not Nagin/Blanco 99% and Bush 1%) is responsible.

I am completely comfortable agreeing that ALL levels of govt (note, I am not stating political affiliation, as this varied in the affected area). were completely overwhelmed by Katrina. No argument.

The Federal Govt's response was slow. It always is. But once they got on the ground and working, they did a creditable job. As did most of the State and Local authorities. It was pre-storm where State and Local dropped the ball in LA. I do not have the same criticism for the Federal Govt. pre-storm. After the storm? Yes. Emphatically so.



I do realize that it appeals to a certain mindset to consistently blame the person in charge when an organization underperforms. While tiresome to hear time and time again without variation, it obviously satisfies a personal need (and makes for entertaining reading at times......). For me, the overwhelming size of the Federal Govt. renders these kinds of personal attacks meaningless. JMO

For example, I recall the outcry of how slow FEMA was to respond after Hurricane Andrew. IIRC, it took FEMA 4 days to get into the area. I do not blame Pres. Clinton for this. Should I? I say no because I derive no pleasure from failure.

Have a nice day.

 

[eclectics]

It was pre-storm where State and Local dropped the ball in LA. I do not have the same criticism for the Federal Govt. pre-storm. After the storm? Yes. Emphatically so.




For example, I recall the outcry of how slow FEMA was to respond after Hurricane Andrew. IIRC, it took FEMA 4 days to get into the area. I do not blame Pres. Clinton for this. Should I? I say no because I derive no pleasure from failure.



Have a nice day.

One could argue their part in the gradual deterioration of the levees.


People weren't dying on their rooftops in Homestead.


You also.

 

[Mr Man]

One could argue their part in the gradual deterioration of the levees.


People weren't dying on their rooftops in Homestead.


You also.

Good point there. One could and should argue this. The Corps of Engineers (in their own words) was responsible for a catastrophic failure of the levee because they built the levee system in a disjointed fashion using outdated data. This happened over a period of years that encompasses numerous administrations. Suggest we pool some $ and send them to the Netherlands to see how a levee system is properly constructed.

This does even things out a bit. Thanks for the reminder.

For avoidance of doubt, the roofs were missing from most of the homes in Homestead.....the rest of the house was missing too in quite a few places...

Regards,

 

[What the Heck]

For the love of all that's holy, give it up. You're only preaching to the choir who don't even want it known they are the "24%" who live on Planet Bush.

We all saw what happened. It was live on our tv's. You can rewrite it however you want, but the fact is Bush had been told the levees had been topped on Monday morning. He then went to John McCain's birthday party.

On Tuesday, when NO was filling up like a soup bowl, Bush played air guitar at a photo op.

On Wednesday, when the disaster was getting worse by the minute, Bush did a fly-over.

On Thursday, when people were dying in the streets of NO, Bush told FEMA head Michael Brown "You're doing a heckuva job, Brownie".

Did you see something else live on your tv? Were you watching Fox News?

Btw, over 80% of the people in NO did evacuate. What was left were the old, the sick, the young, and those who had not have transportation.

On 2nd thought, continue with the Planet Bush drumbeat.

This is the part of rewriting history, this is what is considered coming from the other 24%. Yes, we saw all this. Yes all this happened. And this removes the blame from Blanco how? In logical terms, this argument is called "so what".

She was the Commander in Chief for the State of Louisiana, she was in charge, she was the "decider". It was her people on the ground. It was her people in charge at all locations. It was her people that were supposed to be directing rescue efforts.

Again, unless you are arguing that he should have had dictatorial powers not allowed by the Constitution, which goes back to the same question I have had for 2 years, the one that keeps getting ignored.

The responsibility for what happened was not equal, and contrary to popular belief the lions share of responsibility was not with the federal government - so why is the blame mostly given to the federal government? Remember the article, I think Newsweek "How Bush Blew It". Tell me thats not putting the blame on him, tell me thats not part of the 24% who want sainthood for the Clintons and/or everything/one Democrat and eternal damnation for Bush.

 

[yeartolate]

I really don't give a hoot who the numbnuts are that screwed up in Lousiana. I understand there were major screw ups. Seriously I do. THere were also individuals that should have evacuated - many did not have the resources to, others were numbnuts as well. I grant you all that. I really do.They all on a state, local, and individual level should be held accountable. I get that.

But there is now way that in this country that those folks should have been waiting for that long to get basic needs sent to them. We watched it all on the news. That was DISGUSTING!!!! Our federal government officuals had access to the same crap we were waching on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. Why did their HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid????

Pardon me while I vomit.

 

[LuvDuke]

I really don't give a hoot who the numbnuts are that screwed up in Lousiana. I understand there were major screw ups. Seriously I do. THere were also individuals that should have evacuated - many did not have the resources to, others were numbnuts as well. I grant you all that. I really do.They all on a state, local, and individual level should be held accountable. I get that.

But there is now way that in this country that those folks should have been waiting for that long to get basic needs sent to them. We watched it all on the news. That was DISGUSTING!!!! Our federal government officuals had access to the same crap we were waching on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. Why did their HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid????

Pardon me while I vomit.

Make that a double bucket.

 

[LuvDuke]

This is the part of rewriting history, this is what is considered coming from the other 24%. Yes, we saw all this. Yes all this happened. And this removes the blame from Blanco how? In logical terms, this argument is called "so what".

She was the Commander in Chief for the State of Louisiana, she was in charge, she was the "decider". It was her people on the ground. It was her people in charge at all locations. It was her people that were supposed to be directing rescue efforts.

Again, unless you are arguing that he should have had dictatorial powers not allowed by the Constitution, which goes back to the same question I have had for 2 years, the one that keeps getting ignored.

The responsibility for what happened was not equal, and contrary to popular belief the lions share of responsibility was not with the federal government - so why is the blame mostly given to the federal government? Remember the article, I think Newsweek "How Bush Blew It". Tell me thats not putting the blame on him, tell me thats not part of the 24% who want sainthood for the Clintons and/or everything/one Democrat and eternal damnation for Bush.

The Katrina debacle speaks for itself. You don't get it and you never will.

End of story.

 

[manning]

Of course there's a difference. Many of the homes in CA that have been or will be lost belong to wealthy, influential voters who are also big campaign contributors.

I'm just sayin...

Is that why the difference was like night and day comparing Mississippi and Louisiana after Katrina??

 

[Mr Man]

I really don't give a hoot who the numbnuts are that screwed up in Lousiana. I understand there were major screw ups. Seriously I do. THere were also individuals that should have evacuated - many did not have the resources to, others were numbnuts as well. I grant you all that. I really do.They all on a state, local, and individual level should be held accountable. I get that.

But there is now way that in this country that those folks should have been waiting for that long to get basic needs sent to them. We watched it all on the news. That was DISGUSTING!!!! Our federal government officuals had access to the same crap we were waching on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. Why did their HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid????

Pardon me while I vomit.

I nominate this post for the "Best disturbing visual imagery in an off-topic post" for today.

Anyone who can include numbnuts, crap & vomit in one post (and let's face it, do it multiple times) is ok in my book. I am humbled to be a part of this (and a little bit queasy frankly).

"Here's to you numbnuts, crap vomit poster perso-uh-son (say can you feel it).....A real American Hero" (humming)

But, to bring us back on-topic. Looks like FEMA is there in CA. Nobody is complaining......yet (but the night is young-we can only hope).

 

[GRUMPY PIRATE]

I nominate this post for the "Best disturbing visual imagery in an off-topic post" for today.

Anyone who can include numbnuts, crap & vomit in one post (and let's face it, do it multiple times) is ok in my book. I am humbled to be a part of this (and a little bit queasy frankly).

"Here's to you numbnuts, crap vomit poster perso-uh-son (say can you feel it).....A real American Hero" (humming)

But, to bring us back on-topic. Looks like FEMA is there in CA. Nobody is complaining......yet (but the night is young-we can only hope).

SECOND THAT NOMINATION!!

(Holey crap where's the tylenoal? C. Grisewold)

 

[yeartolate]

I nominate this post for the "Best disturbing visual imagery in an off-topic post" for today.

Anyone who can include numbnuts, crap & vomit in one post (and let's face it, do it multiple times) is ok in my book. I am humbled to be a part of this (and a little bit queasy frankly).

"Here's to you numbnuts, crap vomit poster perso-uh-son (say can you feel it).....A real American Hero" (humming)

But, to bring us back on-topic. Looks like FEMA is there in CA. Nobody is complaining......yet (but the night is young-we can only hope).

Hey, if a poster wants to dive off topic, I am willing to swim to the deep end to join.

 

[What the Heck]

I really don't give a hoot who the numbnuts are that screwed up in Lousiana. I understand there were major screw ups. Seriously I do. THere were also individuals that should have evacuated - many did not have the resources to, others were numbnuts as well. I grant you all that. I really do.They all on a state, local, and individual level should be held accountable. I get that.

But there is now way that in this country that those folks should have been waiting for that long to get basic needs sent to them. We watched it all on the news. That was DISGUSTING!!!! Our federal government officuals had access to the same crap we were waching on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. Why did their HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid????

Pardon me while I vomit.

The Katrina debacle speaks for itself. You don't get it and you never will.

End of story.

Actually, I do get it. And you still have not answered my question, after 2 years.

yeartolate, funny thing, didn't the State Governor, the one person with access to the resources to bring in the supplies needed, the one person with the authority to authorize the supplies being sent, the one person with the responsibility to send them or to initiate the process so that the feds could come in, didn't she have access to the same scenes on tv? And when I say the one person, I mean the one person who could legally do it. The President, by law, by the Constitution, could not, he was not authorized. It would have been illegal for him to do so. The Governor blew it, she didn't ask for aid in time, that is why the "HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid". The federal government COULD NOT HAVE LEGALLY TAKEN ACTION.

The Katrina debacle does speak for itself - in Louisiana. In Florida, in Missisippi it tells another tale. Because they had better state governments, ones that actually took responsibility and got their people what they needed. Why do you think the camera crews were almost exclusively in LA? Was it because Mississippi wasn't hit as hard? Mississippi got the dirty end of the hurricane, NO got the clean end. But Louisiana was where the screw ups were and every Democrat they could find was whisked down there to say "tisk, tisk, it's too bad this Republican white president can't do anything, see how he makes the black man suffer". It truly was disgusting.

You want to claim Bush should have provided more leadership, I don't have a problem with that. But the actual responding with orders to send in the aid, with giving the orders to allow the aid that was on its way to make it through instead of sending it back when it arrived, with giving the orders for the Louisiana National Guard to move in - that was all the Governor and her office. That is how it is set up by the Constitution.

 

[Charade]

Actually, I do get it. And you still have not answered my question, after 2 years.

yeartolate, funny thing, didn't the State Governor, the one person with access to the resources to bring in the supplies needed, the one person with the authority to authorize the supplies being sent, the one person with the responsibility to send them or to initiate the process so that the feds could come in, didn't she have access to the same scenes on tv? And when I say the one person, I mean the one person who could legally do it. The President, by law, by the Constitution, could not, he was not authorized. It would have been illegal for him to do so. The Governor blew it, she didn't ask for aid in time, that is why the "HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid". The federal government COULD NOT HAVE LEGALLY TAKEN ACTION.

The Katrina debacle does speak for itself - in Louisiana. In Florida, in Missisippi it tells another tale. Because they had better state governments, ones that actually took responsibility and got their people what they needed. Why do you think the camera crews were almost exclusively in LA? Was it because Mississippi wasn't hit as hard? Mississippi got the dirty end of the hurricane, NO got the clean end. But Louisiana was where the screw ups were and every Democrat they could find was whisked down there to say "tisk, tisk, it's too bad this Republican white president can't do anything, see how he makes the black man suffer". It truly was disgusting.

You want to claim Bush should have provided more leadership, I don't have a problem with that. But the actual responding with orders to send in the aid, with giving the orders to allow the aid that was on its way to make it through instead of sending it back when it arrived, with giving the orders for the Louisiana National Guard to move in - that was all the Governor and her office. That is how it is set up by the Constitution.

Forget it. They don't get it. Never will.

 

[yeartolate]

you are telling me,that it was a technical error? Again, that a numbnuts governor doesn't make a call and no aid can get sent???You are saying that as all of us watch bodies floating away on CNN, FOX, etc.....our federal government can't say "we are ready, what doyou need".

Again, I get it- local and state SCREWED UP!!!!!!Individuals who should have evacuated SCREWED UP. I agree, the call should have been made. Again, I get it, I understand. I really do. But if you say they the feds can't to ascertain need....I will just shake my head. Believe me, I am just as pissed at the individual, state, and local response . But that does not diminish my disgust for the federal response.

There is enough blame to go around.

 

[LuvDuke]

Forget it. They don't get it. Never will.

Actually, we do get it. We just can't believe you're still using this talking point to excuse your president's incompetence and lack of leadership during a time of national emergency.

As your president has been known to say: "It's hard work". It's damned hard work when you can't get away with just a pretty photo-op.

 

[LuvDuke]

Yanno, sooner or later, one's character comes through. And this says everything you need to know about Bush's character:

Bush Takes Shot At Katrina Governor During Visit To California

New Orleans Times-Picayune | October 26, 2007 09:35 AM

As the California wildfires continued to rage Thursday, so too did the political feud between President Bush and Gov. Kathleen Blanco that has smoldered since the federal government's slow response to Hurricane Katrina.

The latest flare-up came when Bush, while touring the California disaster area, took an apparent swipe at Blanco's post-Katrina leadership as he complimented California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

"It makes a significant difference when you have somebody in the statehouse willing to take the lead," Bush said, according to the Associated Press.

The president's statement, coming from a White House that seems determined to avoid a repeat in California of the public-relations disaster that followed Katrina, brought a swift response from Blanco.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/26/bush-takes-shot-at-katrin_n_69972.html

People are losing everything, have lost everything, 500,000 people are still displaced from Katrina, and this sack of **** has to take a petty pot shot at Kathleen Blanco.

You truly can't make this stuff up. But the "24%" will lap it up.

 

[rie'smom]

Actually, we do get it. We just can't believe you're still using this talking point to excuse your president's incompetence and lack of leadership during a time of national emergency.

As your president has been known to say: "It's hard work". It's damned hard work when you can't get away with just a pretty photo-op.

I live in Louisiana a few miles from New Orleans.

The National Guard was ready to help.

They couldn't because the GOVERNOR wouldn't request the help. Talk about numbovaries.

The Feds could not come in w/out an invite from the GOVERNOR. It's the law.

There were trucks with food and water that could not help because the GOVERNOR did not request their help.

Much, much too late, the empty headed cuckoo bird did request help.

This part was not Bush's responsibility. It was the Governor's responsibility.


Now, not wanting to fund the Spillway that could prevent flooding-that's Bush because he won't sign the bill.

Like it or not, if you're a US citizen, he IS your president.

 

[Charade]

Actually, we do get it. We just can't believe you're still using this talking point to excuse your president's incompetence and lack of leadership during a time of national emergency.

Of course I would have had to make that claim for your statement to be true.

But I never did.

I never gave any of them a pass. Federal, state or local government leaders. And that would include the numbnuts, that had the means, who stayed when they should have evacuated.