Did Santa 2 help tank Planet?

craniumbuzz

Earning My Ears
Joined
Jun 6, 2000
Messages
1
Just curious to see what you think. According to www.boxofficemojo.com, The Santa Clause 2 took in $16,881,868
from Nov 27-Dec.1, but Treasure Planet only took in $16,599,714 over the same five days. Did Disney mess up by scheduling these too close together? It seems people would and did flock to a holiday movie, even if it's been out a few weeks, this time of year instead of sci-fi animation. What do you think?
 
Possibly.

My understanding from previous threads is that TP was originally scheduled for Summer '02, and L&S for this Holiday season. Adventure in the Summer, family over the Holidays... But due to delays with TP, the releases were reversed.

If its true that family works better over the holidays, and adventure over the Summer, then both TP and L&S will have been hurt by the switch. Not sure I completely buy that, but there is some logic behind it.

Of course, if that's true, then TP, being an adventure story, would be hurt less by SC2 than L&S would have been... TP may have been hurt more by Harry Potter or even James Bond than by SC2.

I don't know... I guess the answer is make a movie people want to see and they will come see it.
 
Originally posted by thedscoop
Of course, I'm sure revisionism will soon gain some footing and it'll all be the studio's fault that folks ended up walking into animated adam's theater at the cineplex.

I'm just blaming bad signage in the theatres for now.

"The sign said Treasure Planet but then it started playing this Jewish holiday comedy thing and I just couldn't take my eyes off of it! Don't blame me for the bad numbers! I made an effort."
 
Chock one up for Scoop's general theory that giving the audience a quality option vs. one without quality doesn't mean audiences are just salivating for a masterpiece.
I don't think anyone will argue with you. A movie must be appealing to its audience to be successful. If it can do that without quality, more power to whoever created it.

But I think the point is that trying to appeal to your audience with quality will work more often than ignoring quality.

Striving to make a quality teen comedy that appeals to the inteneded audience will cosistently yield better results than leaving the quality out of the picture.

If TP really is a good, quality all-around work, then "Bravo"! Like you said, though, quality alone is no guarantee of drawing an audience. But would it have drawn any better if the only change was a reduction in quality? I doubt it.

Quality is an important factor in the long term success of a company like Disney, but certainly no one is saying that alone will automatically equal success every time.
 

I'll echo what RaiderMatt said and build upon it...

Quality is most likely there in TP (haven't seen it yet) but it doesn't necessarily drive the audience. Unfortunately, there's just a lot of quality competition out there for precious holiday time and your box office $. There's a wide range of action/adventure movies out such as Bond, HP, LOTR:TTT, Star Trek: Nemesis. Add a Treasure Planet movie into that mix and it becomes overload. With these other movies, you KNEW they were coming out well in advance and could plan for them. Unfortunately, no one really quite knew about TP, when it was coming out, etc... Everyone knows or has heard about the others though and had an idea for some time (a year in the case of LOTR and HP). I think it was just poor planning on Disney's part for the release date.

On a side note: You also know that the experience of seeing movies such as LOTR:TTT and Bond on the big screen is far superior to even the best TV/DVD/Surround Sound Stereo at-home experience. With Disney, you know the DVD will be good and not take away too much from the experience. Many people (like myself, the wife and 2 kids....) will be just as happy to spend $16.99 for the DVD when it comes out....
 
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
On a side note: You also know that the experience of seeing movies such as LOTR:TTT and Bond on the big screen is far superior to even the best TV/DVD/Surround Sound Stereo at-home experience. With Disney, you know the DVD will be good and not take away too much from the experience. Many people (like myself, the wife and 2 kids....) will be just as happy to spend $16.99 for the DVD when it comes out....

Matt makes a good point. I NEVER go see animated movies on the big screen anymore because the transfer to DVD is usualy outstanding and I gain little by sitting in a freezing theater. I will however, buy the DVD and watch it at home in ED 480p without all of the theater hassles.

The only time I go to the theater anymore is when the film itself technicaly justifies my trip there and the added expense of paying to see the movie and then later still buying the DVD. Of course, I may still have to go if the wife makes me see some fluff-flick with the words "Ya-ya" or "sisterhood" in the title, which I have no control over. Hey, I at least get a 84 oz. drink out of the deal :)


JC
 
Before I start, I am on record as really liking TP, so with that disclaimer:

a. Treasure Planet is a summer movie, and should have been released next summer, and not in the same year as another Lilo (and especially not at the same time as Harry Potter). Whichever boneheaded executive greenlighted the release of two animated features from Disney in the same year ought to be hung from the top of the Astroorbiter by his/her Mickey ears.

b. Not that it should matter, but anybody else notice that it was the THIRD straight Aliens-in-my-plot-line animated feature from Disney? From Atlantis to Lilo to TP, we've got strange, non-human like beings flying all across our multiplexes from the Mouse. how 'bout just one movie with cute furry rabbits or singing chandaliers just as a slight change of pace, and then we can get another non-singing action adventure set as aliens/atlanteans battle the bad humans/aliens.
 
TP should have been released last summer, it was a good Disney movie, I loved it so did my kids, we don't care what the critics say, it was good and I actually feel sorry it is doing poorly at the theatres, thats Eisners fault for budget cutting the production release of it.
 
Originally posted by thedscoop
...alas, quality often does not play a deciding role in such a strategy.

Case in point: Treasure Planet has received near universal positive reviews by both reviewers and us common folk.

Not sure what your defintion of near universal (wouldn't that be islands of adventure?:p )-but our paper gave it 2.5 stars and then gives a run down on a variety of other papers general reviews...not one outstanding, most were OK and a few disappointings...also the ad campaign must be having a hard time finding good reviews as they quote some Dayton,OH radio station as their main quote and then a few other minor outlets for some other quotes...

I am not saying anything about whether the movie is worthy of such reviews or not...just that the notion that this proves that quality does not play a deciding role is shaky with regard to TP, given the mixed range of publicized opinions on this movie.

Paul
 
Several thoughts, and I haven't seen the movie, but still have an opinion (of course!)...

-On the surface, Treasure Planet seems to be way too much like Atlantis, which is still quite fresh in the memory. Why do something so similar so soon?

-When a Disney film, traditionally a 'kid's theater experience' features a hip/cool teen-age boy as the protagonist, you're mixing up your marketing. Your main character appeals to teen-age boys who are not going to choose to go see a Disney movie with the fellas on a Friday night.

-I think the Studios need to pitch their ideas to 7 year old girls and their moms. If they love it, it will be a smash.

-How about a decent musical. One common theme with Disney animation successes is the fact that strong songs = big box office hits. Even Tarzan, while great animation, had a weak soundtrack with the same 3 songs repeated several times throughout the movie. I mean, come one, "Put your faith in what you most believe in" - what a grammatical nightmare. But I digress... Get some decent songs to go with the movie, and then you might get somewhere. How much of 'Titanic's success flowed from the Celine Dion song that accompanied it? Anyhow, you get the point.

-Everybody loves romance. Not that romance = hit under every circumstance, but if you've got a quality animation, a decent story, good music, some laughs AND an emotional undercurrent, then you've got the formula for $$$.

Okay. I'm done now. Carry on.
 
I agree that it is time for a musical, but Tarzan is a poor example of missing the mark.

It was the most successful non-Pixar Disney animated film of recent years. I believe that this is because it was based on a classic tale and that the music was excellent. There were 5 original songs used in the movie (more than Treasure Planet, Lilo, Emperor's Groove, and Atlantis since).

I think Disney overreacted to critics complaining of the 'Disney formula'. They have done an excellent job avoiding this formula in recent years, with only the happy ending surviving. As for myself, I would be more than happy to see a Disney formula film come along:
- classic tale
- funny/interesting characters
- musical (or at least music driven)
- fairy tale ending
- family friendly

:earsboy: M E
 
Whatever happened to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? The formula worked and in my opinion should have been altered to make it fresh, not just thrown out like yesterday's news.
 
Even Tarzan, while great animation, had a weak soundtrack with the same 3 songs repeated several times throughout the movie. I mean, come one, "Put your faith in what you most believe in" - what a grammatical nightmare. But I digress... Get some decent songs to go with the movie, and then you might get somewhere. How much of 'Titanic's success flowed from the Celine Dion song that accompanied it? Anyhow, you get the point.

I was a projectionist at a theater when Titanic came out. We had that sucker for 9 months. 9 months, and I can tell you the nearly full theaters for most of that run was NOT due to Celine Dion's song. People didn't fork over 8 bucks so they can listen to "My Heart Will Go On" durring the end credits when they could here it for free avery 15 minutes on the radio. It was the Romeo and Juliet story, the epic drama and tragedy associated with the sinking of the Titanic, and Leo that appealed to so many different audiences. It was the movie that made the song popular and coincidentally pushed the soundtrack to second all-time.

That being said, though music is integral to a movie in creating mood and setting up scenes, it doesn't make or break a film. IT is merely a part. I honestly loved Phil Collins' songs in Tarzan; I was still working at the theater when the first Tarzan trailer was playing. I made sure I was in the house every time that particular trailer played. "Two Worlds" combined with the quick cut imagery gave me goose bumps.

I agree that it is time for a musical, but Tarzan is a poor example of missing the mark. It was the most successful non-Pixar Disney animated film of recent years. I believe that this is because it was based on a classic tale and that the music was excellent. There were 5 original songs used in the movie (more than Treasure Planet, Lilo, Emperor's Groove, and Atlantis since).


Remember, though, Treasure Planet is based on a classic tale as well.

I really enjoyed Treasure Planet, alot. I enjoyed Atlantis, too, though its production nightmares and numerous rewrites really killed any chance of it being a really good flick. Disney is trying real hard not necessarily to reinvent the wheel or their animation department, but just trying to evolve, be competitive and try new things. You've got companies like Dreamworks, Warner Bros and Fox going off in completely different directions animation wise; considering Disney is the leader in animation, they cannot just sit back and let others take over their market share.

One point no one has stopped to make in regards to Disney making non-musical/farey tale animated films right nows is this: they are gorwing with their audience. The small kids who made Little Maermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and Lion King a success are now teenagers and young adults. They no longer seek out G rated cartoons, they seek action and drama. In the back of their minds, though, they remember the Disney animated films in their childhood. If Disney gives them a product suiting more their age and tastes, but retains tat magic the audience remembers, they win. Thw whoel key is marketing it right.

That brings me to what I thought really killed Treasure Planet: marketing. Yes, they made a gamble on the release date and lost miserably. They wanted to take advantage of the increased movie-going holiday weekend, figuring people had pretty much gotten Harry Potter, James Bond and Santa Clause 2 out of their systems by then. they got greedy and lost out. Personally, I think this would have madea good spring choice, centered around the spring break time.

Treasure Planet lacked any real advertising. The first trailer I saw for it was on the Monsters Inc DVD a month or two back. They missed the boat cross-promoting it by attaching a trailer for it on the theatrical run of Lilo and Stitch. There weren't many TV ads that I saw. Disney hardly pushed TP as hard as they have other films, and cetainly not as far in advance as needed to put a deep lasting impression. TP basically just opened with little fanfare. I almost had forgotten it came out last week.

Disney also missed the boat on promoting it in the parks, especially MGM. I've been eagerly awaiting it since I saw the frist conceptual drawings almost 5 years ago in the animation tour, but honestly how many people liek me are out there, who get excited over a painting? They could have easily set up an exhibit, on an unused soundstage, to immerse yourself in the high tech/low tech environment of Tp. Who really could resist learning about hte movie and its production while searching the decks of a pirate ship in space?

Oh well, I hope Disney realizes there's hope for it on DVD (Ice Age made more in its first three days of relase on DVD than its domestic theatrical run!) and gives it a spiffy Colelctor's Edition release (ala Tarzan and Atlantis) that this underlooked and underappreciated film deserves.
 
It may just be that the name Disney means teens will stay away... Disney =baby or childish to them...once kids reach 15 or 16 they try really hard to turn away from stuff they liked when they were younger to "prove" how grown up they are...that is NEVER going to change....I think the problem is that Disney has to decide to either surrender that market share to others (a problem since that is the balooning popluation that made them so successful in the 90's) or repackage their product in a way that teens will buy it-(i.e aim at teens but without the name Disney on it-ala Touchstone pictures in the 80's)

Paul
 
I think Disney overreacted to critics complaining of the 'Disney formula'.
I agree. The problem isn't with the basic "formula", its when you rely too heavily on it, or go off searching for another formula. As is becoming a pattern with Disney, they ignore the execution problems and instead decide the audience must want them to go off in another direction.

I think the problem is that Disney has to decide to either surrender that market share to others (a problem since that is the balooning popluation that made them so successful in the 90's)...
I don't think this would really be a problem at all. Disney realized long ago that teens are a unique group in many ways. Rather than attempt to cater to their unique needs, Disney realized it was better to focus on their younger brothers and sisters, and their parents and grandparents. These groups are far larger and more profitable. Even if there is a spike in the number of teens, those teens will be parents very soon, and then you will have another spike in your core audience.

But maybe you're right that using a different brand name for their adventure oriented animation would allow them to target teens without sacrificing their core audience.

considering Disney is the leader in animation, they cannot just sit back and let others take over their market share.
Instead they are letting others take it by making poor decisions and focusing too much on "brand", "franchises", and marketing.

One point no one has stopped to make in regards to Disney making non-musical/farey tale animated films right nows is this: they are gorwing with their audience. The small kids who made Little Maermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin and Lion King a success are now teenagers and young adults. They no longer seek out G rated cartoons, they seek action and drama.
True, but the little kids NOW are seeking out G rated cartoons, as are their parents. And these teens will be too in a few short years when they have children. What you describe has ALWAYS been the case. Different demographics have peaks and valleys, but Disney's appeal to families focuses on what is always the largest segment.

Disney hardly pushed TP as hard as they have other films, and cetainly not as far in advance as needed to put a deep lasting impression. TP basically just opened with little fanfare. I almost had forgotten it came out last week.
Very similar to the criticism leveled at L&S...
 
"Treasure Planet" a bust for Disney animators
Thu Dec 5, 9:32 PM ET

By Peter Henderson

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The Walt Disney Co. has taken a $140 million gamble on an epic cartoon and lost -- raising questions over whether the studio that once was "The Lion King" among animators has strength left to roar.

The box office failure of "Treasure Planet" has raised questions about the future direction of Disney's fabled animation unit amid reports that its chief, Thomas Schumacher, was already considering leaving the division.

The failure of "Treasure Planet" also puts extra pressure on Disney to continue its profitable ties with computer specialist Pixar Animation Studios Inc.creator of "Monsters, Inc.," analysts said. According to reports, Pixar wants to end its 50-50 split with Disney and pay the studio only a distribution fee.

Disney's animation unit helped launch the company. Hit "Snow White," the first full length animated feature, earned the money to buy the land for the studio lot, and the animation unit helped revitalize Disney in the 1980s and 1990s, thanks to "The Lion King" among other films.

"Treasure Planet", an interplanetary version of Robert Louis Stevenson's "Treasure Island," cost a reported $140 million to make but brought in only a paltry $16.5 million in the United States and Canada over the long Thanksgiving weekend, causing Disney to restate and lower its fiscal fourth quarter profits by $74 million before taxes.

Industry experts blamed tough competition and the blatant pitch for the fickle teenage boy market for the film's failure.

Kaufman Bros. financial analyst Paul Kim wrote in a research note that the restatement meant that Disney's total fiscal fourth quarter operating profit was down 14 percent from a year earlier compared with a 2.2 percent drop before the restatement.

"It puts a lot of pressure on them. They rolled the dice on a $140 million picture," said lawyer Nancy Newhouse Porter, a partner at Newhouse Porter Hubbard which represents several animated film directors.

BOTTOM LINE

Disney had already said that "Treasure Planet" was the last of the series of big-budget animated blockbusters.

Studio Chairman Richard Cook, who declined to be interviewed for this article, told analysts recently that the company was now more than ever making creative decisions with a look at the bottom line.

He pointed to animated feature "Lilo and Stitch", made for a reported $80 million, as a template. The protagonist of that movie, Lilo, wore a dress that in early drafts had a rich -- and expensive -- pattern. Cook said Disney reaped substantial savings by giving the dress a simple print.

Many analysts say Disney has learned it has to control its wallet. "In today's economy, these films can't cost $140 million," said Heather Kenyon, editor in chief at Animation World Network, a Web publisher and information clearinghouse. "I think Disney understands that."

She said Disney was a victim of its own phenomenal success with "The Lion King" at a time when there was not much competition for animated features.

Disney animation has about 1,200 employees, about half its peak of a few years ago and it is not clear if animation chief Schumacher will stay. "I think that will be the final piece of the puzzle for Disney animation's future," Kenyon said.

Aside from Disney's own animators the company has begun to work with partners like Pixar, the creator of hit "Monsters, Inc.", DVD sales of which contributed strongly to Disney's recent quarter.

Pixar is about to approve production of its first film beyond its current deal with Disney, and there is pressure on the studio to cut a new deal. "Pixar is a huge profit center for them," said animation lawyer Newhouse Porter. "You always want to hang onto one that is four for four."

Kaufman Bros's Kim said that the results of "Treasure Planet" spelled continued challenges for Disney. "This adjustment suggests that the company's core animation franchise could face some rough waters ahead," he said.
 
Originally posted by raidermatt
True, but the little kids NOW are seeking out G rated cartoons, as are their parents. And these teens will be too in a few short years when they have children. What you describe has ALWAYS been the case. Different demographics have peaks and valleys, but Disney's appeal to families focuses on what is always the largest segment.

True but those teens will not have Disney aged kids in any significant numbers for at least 10 years--that is a lot of quarters to wait for the Echo Echo Boom to lift Disney up...if they can rebrand their fare for teens with a different name I think they have a chance...like ESPN ---few of the Joe Sixpacks who love that network and it's programs associate it with Disney-- but it is a very profitable endeavor...how successful would it be if they called it Disney Sports Channel? I would bet it would fail miserable- yes just by having a different name I would expect it to fail. Disney should continue to focus energy on its core (families) but it can grow the teen audience but it will have to do it with a different moniker--if they want to succeed...something they seem ill equipped to do lately.

Paul
 
Its not that I disagree, its just a question of focus.

I think its fine if they want to re-brand this teen-oriented fare and go that route. They just need to be sure they are doing well in their "bread and butter", which is still stuff that appeals to all age groups and bears the Disney name. (Hmmm, sounds a lot like the situation in the parks...)

They should not let failures in one of the genres dictate decision-making in the other. I'm not confident they realize how different the two really are.
 
I saw Tp and James Bond (I am 31 BTW). As far as quality, TP was better much better (IMHO). Bond had Bombs and Berry (which was cool :) ). However TP was by far the better movie.

Joe in CT
 
that is my 7 year old son and I. My 8 year old daughter opted out as it did not look interesting to her. I thought it was actually one of the better Disney films I had seen and redid the "coming of age" thing that had failed in Atlantis in a much better and more subtle way.

But my daughter (the true Disney fanatic in the family) was not interested. She went to Lilo and while she enjoyed it has not begged for the DVD for Christmas. She also had not interest in Atlantis, saw Tarzan but again not that interested, and so on.

My opinion is this: Disney needs to go back to making romantic "girl" movies with good songs. Fairy tales, pretty dresses and princesses. At least every other movie should be like this. Its been forever since they had one of these movies. My daughter wants romance, as do I in a good Disney antimated. It seems Disney got caught up in competing with the rude yet funny Shrek and the non-romantic Pixar creations instead of sticking to what it did best, The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, even the Lion King. Romance, pretty dresses and princesses. No one else is making these movies, they are all caught up in farting underwater jokes, aliens, new renditions of surfing and or skateboarding, and hip teenage boys. If Disney were to go back to their original hits they would be hitting a market that no one else is right now. And I think hitting it big.

Jennifer
 












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