Detroit Bailout -- Do you support it?

[mom2aredhead]

Why do these foregin companies operate at a profit while the "Big 3" are always posting a loss?

I think part of it is perception. Let's face it - Ford and GM made some pretty crappy vehicles over the years. They had mechanical problems, recalls, horrible reputations about their quality, and a lot of consumers that had problems swore up and down they would never buy another Ford, GM, etc. and didn't. Even though the quality of the domestic vehicles has improved greatly, the Toyota Camry or Honda Accord never had to battle a bad reputation the way Ford products did.

Another issue is the saturation of dealers. There are just way too many. Where I live (metro-NY), I can drive to easily a dozen different Ford dealers within 40 minutes. I can only think of a handful of Toyota and Subaru dealers. The market and the manufacturer cannot support that many.

And honestly, and I can say this from experience working for Ford for many years, they just do stupid things! There is no need for a Ford Explorer to be available in 4 different trim levels which have overlapping features. They discontinued the Taurus, then brought back the name and put it on a different car and expected people to not notice and keep buying it. They bought and (in some cases) sold Jaguar, LandRover, Mazda, and Astin Martin instead of concentrating on making better Ford products. And they don't do a good job marketing to women...do we really need to see another Ford Truck commercial with the pickup bouncing down the dusty hill?? Seriously, if the Fusion was supposed to be the "savior" vehicle that everyone was going to love, throw a little money into advertising it...to women...who are the decision-makers in many auto purchases yet are ignored in many marketing meetings.

This is all on top of the ridiculous executive compensation, stock perks and UAW benefits that have been brought up before.

 

[leahjade]

Why do these foregin companies operate at a profit while the "Big 3" are always posting a loss?

Very simple one word answer: UNIONS

UAW And Why Honda And Toyota Workers Are Not Interested
Posted March 27 2007 12:54 PM by staff


To the Japanese automobile manufacturers, unions are the plague. And the United Auto Workers (UAW) admit to having a tough time getting new union members when they visit Japanese manufacturers' plants (called 'transplants') in the U.S. "People just aren’t interested," said one union organizer.


The Japanese auto makers in the U.S. seem to be winning their battle with the UAW because the people they employ seem convinced that the benefits are good and that the union couldn't do any better. Moreover, these auto makers tend to build plants in the U.S. in areas that have a low average wage for laborers.

Worse, conditions are better in transplants in some areas. An example of a happy plant of workers is in the Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky. The workers are now being paid more and getting better bonuses than UAW workers average at domestic plants.

Yet the UAW continues to try. It attempted to organize the workers at the Subaru plant in Lafayette at least three times. The result? Nada, nothing. The plant will be producing Camrys (pictured) in a joint venture with Toyota in April.

Our take? The strength of the UAW has ebbed substantially. In 1979 the union had a membership of 1.5 million. By 2005 it had plunged to 600,000. Unless the transplants do something real stupid like slashing wages in half or eliminating medical benefits, we see union membership continue to dwindle.

 

[dzorn]

The reason we can't compete with the foriegn cars is because the likes of Toyota have a universal healthcare system so the health insurance of the employees is not built into every single car, and I don't think they make a lot less then the American auotworkers, I think their pay is pretty close.

Bingo!! we have a winner.

Denise in MI

 

[CowboyCO]

Bingo!! we have a winner.

Denise in MI

I wasn't aware the Tennessee, Georgia, Ohio and other US states that have Toyota, Subaru and Honda plants have universal health care!

 

[Yen Sid]

Those plants don't have universal health care but because the bulk of those companies is not in the United States they are still able to keep costs down.

 

[mom2aredhead]

Plenty of large companies provide health care to employees and are still able to be profitable. To blame their problems solely on employee health care expenses is just silly.

 

[minnie61650]

Plenty of large companies provide health care to employees and are still able to be profitable. To blame their problems solely on employee health care expenses is just silly.

Sure plenty of companies provide heath care.
But you forgetting the American auto companies are paying health care and Toyota does not.

Therefore Toyota can price their cars far lower than the American auto companies can compete with.

JMHO

 

[mom2aredhead]

Sure plenty of companies provide heath care.
But you forgetting the American auto companies are paying health care and Toyota does not.

Therefore Toyota can price their cars far lower than the American auto companies can compete with.

JMHO

So Toyota contributes nothing to employee health care as part of their benefits? I'm finding this a little hard to believe.

And they really don't price their cars "far lower" than the American auto companies...have you priced a Sienna van lately? Or a Camry?

 

[mom2aredhead]

I just found it - they do have benefits...

http://www.toyota.com/html/talentlink/hr/whytoyota/benefits.html

 

[TLSnell1981]

I just found it - they do have benefits...

http://www.toyota.com/html/talentlink/hr/whytoyota/benefits.html

I guess, this negates that argument.

 

[minnie61650]

I just found it - they do have benefits...

http://www.toyota.com/html/talentlink/hr/whytoyota/benefits.html

Thanks for the info.I stand corrected.

 

[minnie61650]

.........you priced a Sienna van lately? Or a Camry?

No ,we have not priced any of those autos as we only buy from the Big 3 American auto companies.
DH just bought a new Saturn Outlook 2 weeks ago and I an going to buy a new Buick Lucern in the Spring when we return from our Florida Snowbird stay.

 

[Pin Wizard]

NO, especially after seeing the union leader on the news the other day saying the workers are not taking any concessions! They don't want any cuts in their average $24 an hour pay or very generous health care benefits. I think many of us have had to receive less of a pay raise and had insurance changes that we don't like, but had no choice in the matter.

Precisely! And I haven't noticed the prices of autos decreasing in order to move them out. We'll see how it is in January. If the price is right, I'll trade in. If not, keep it another year...at least.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

I didn't vote because I didn't see an option for my opinion. I don't mind helping Detroit with a Bailout, as long as HUGE concessions come from UAW, management and CEOs.

If we just give them money with no concessions, we are just wasting taxpayers money.

Where are the watch dogs for this bailout? I don't want my money to go to some company that is going to blow it on some party!

 

[minnie61650]

Precisely! And I haven't noticed the prices of autos decreasing in order to move them out. We'll see how it is in January. If the price is right, I'll trade in. If not, keep it another year...at least.

We got a good deal on our (new but last year's model) 2008 Saturn Outlook.

Base price was $31,000.

With our trade in and dicounts we paid $19,999.

The dealers are ready to deal.

 

[Pin Wizard]

Wow! How much haggling did you do? And was it a male or female that did the haggling? Curious.

 

[minnie61650]

Wow! How much haggling did you do? And was it a male or female that did the haggling? Curious.

DH did the haggling. When making the deal with trade in and dicounts the Outlook was pricing outa little over $21,500 out the door. DH told him do better that he did not want to pay more than $20,000 out the door.
The salesman talked to his boss and came back. The salesman said they could not reduce the price of the Outlook but would give us more money on the trade in.(Edited to add the tradein was a 2004 Chevy van with over 104,000 miles on it.)

The dealership got a sale and we got a new Saturn Outlook.

 

[Pin Wizard]

DH did the haggling. When making the deal with trade in and dicounts the Outlook was pricing outa little over $21,500 out the door. DH told him do better that he did not want to pay more than $20,000 out the door.
The salesman talked to his boss and came back. The salesman said they could not reduce the price of the Outlook but would give us more money on the trade in.(Edited to add the tradein was a 2004 Chevy van with over 104,000 miles on it.)

The dealership got a sale and we got a new Saturn Outlook.

I need to take lessons in haggling. LOL! Congrats on your new Outlook...have fun with it!

 

[LilSweetPeaPhoto]

Add me into the yes category. As someone in the Detroit area (with many of my uncles working for GM, and friends or family almost all tied to the industry) we need this bail out. BUT the union does need to open it's eyes (this said by someone who is a niece of a former UAW negotiator for GM).

At some point the UAW workers need to realize this is no longer the hayday and the days of $90K+ salaries, weeks and weeks of vacation time, and full benefits are over. It pains me to see my cousins who have ungrad and grad engineering degrees loose their jobs in this industry because the companies simply can not afford their payroll with the current UAW contract. I would think having a job at lower pay is better then losing your job and risking your retirement?

I should also say, I am a teacher (and yes, in the union, MEA). The failure of the Michigan economy directly effects me. Less jobs = less taxes and revenue for the state. Less revenue = less funding for schools. For the last few years we've seen little to no increase in school funding and even cuts! There was a story on the news today how a local district is now going to start charging teachers for their "personal" electricity use. Yes, those fridges or microwaves or coffee makers will now cost the teacher $$$ out of pocket. Many teachers already use personal funds to buy supplies for their classrooms. Also the cuts in spending for education lead to cuts in teacher pay as well as elimination of jobs. Elimination of jobs means more students in a classroom.

So think what you may about the big three, but this really does and will effect so many more people then the UAW or the Big 3 CEO's. I have to believe, if the statistics are correct, that Michigan isn't the only state who's educational funding will be impacted!

I'd rather see $25 billion go to the Big 3, then the $750 BILLION to the banks!

 

[whjoyjr]

No to the bail-out. What in the heck were the CEO's thinking? Flying into DC on Corporate Jets to ask for the taxpayer handout? This just convinces me that even if there was a bail-out, it would only benefit the upper management.

So, the union will get the shaft with or without the bail-out. Hopefully the BK judge will order the corporate jets liquidated and the CEO's contracts nullified BEFORE they start with the unions.