Delta on my local news...

[roadtripper]

Unions abuse their leverage, which was once used for good to protect workers from harm; now unions destroy business by artificially inflating the cost of workers.

Correct...

Unions are no longer the "mediators" between the employee's and the companies, they now control how the company will be run, what the workers will and will not do and what the workers will be payed to do the least possible work for the most possible wage.

Have either of you ever worked in a union job? Unions have done more to protect individual workers (who are mothers, fathers, and taxpayers) and labor conditions in America in general than any other organization, with the possible exception of the US govt (which usually reacts, whereas unions are proactive on these issues).
bicker, you're going to have to explain how the wages of a highly trained pilot have been "artifically inflated". What kind of training have these people had? Who do you want flying your plane? What kind of training have you had for your job? Would you take a 32% pay cut tomorrow without assurances that those at the top are doing the same or more to save your company?

And why shouldn't the workers have some say in how their company is run?

 

[NotUrsula]

I don't for a minute deny the legitimate job condition improvements that unions have won from US industry over the years, but somewhere along the line, the more powerful unions (most especially the Teamsters) seem to have lost touch with their reason for existing. Their behaviour now is all about *the union* holding onto power and influence, and the devil take the hindmost. What that has done is to undermine public confidence in the motivation and management of unions -- John Q. Public doesn't trust them anymore.

John Q. Public may be right, at least some of the time. The worst example of union hubris I can think of is the GM Jobs Bank -- at peak, some 12,000 people getting assembly-line scale pay to NOT work. Some of the folks currently in the "temporary" JB program have been in it for over 10 years. How can you ask the average middle-class American (whose job is "on-demand") to support a union that comes up with a boondoggle like this, for workers who make an expensive product that nearly every household in the US needs?

I should also add that in the age of the 401K, nearly all f/t workers in the US own stocks, even blue-collar workers. They have a vested interest in the bottom line that didn't exist 50 yrs. ago, when the only company a blue-collar worker cared about keeping afloat was the one he worked for. Times have changed, and these days people look for a balance in labor negotiations; when either side is seen as asking for too much, that side loses public support. Sure, I believe that CEO pay should come more into line with real performance, and I think that if they claim the pay is about responsibility, I want them to forego pay when the company takes a loss. That's good PR, but it doesn't do all that much for the bottom line -- operating costs will swallow it in a heartbeat.

 

[Disneyjosh229]

John Q. Public may be right, at least some of the time. The worst example of union hubris I can think of is the GM Jobs Bank -- at peak, some 12,000 people getting assembly-line scale pay to NOT work. Some of the folks currently in the "temporary" JB program have been in it for over 10 years. How can you ask the average middle-class American (whose job is "on-demand") to support a union that comes up with a boondoggle like this, for workers who make an expensive product that nearly every household in the US needs?

Thank you for addressing the UAW jobs bank. Living 30 miles from Lansing (which I might mention used to be the auto capitol of the world) I know tons of people in the jobs bank. Currently there are about 6500 UAW hourly employees (ranging from $27.50-$40.00+ an hour) in the jobs bank. The bank is located in a vacant outlet mall. Employees show up at 9:00am and sign in with a contract employee. Then they proceed to play cards, read, smoke, watch TV and eat lunch inside the bank until 5:00pm where they are released for the day. Unions at there best....

 

[bicker]

Unions abuse their leverage, which was once used for good to protect workers from harm; now unions destroy business by artificially inflating the cost of workers.

Correct...

Have either of you ever worked in a union job?

Have you ever managed a company that was subjected to union workers?

bicker, you're going to have to explain how the wages of a highly trained pilot have been "artifically inflated".

By preventing the airlines from employing non-union pilots, the union destroys the free-market balance that would set pilot salaries based on supply of qualified pilots and the demand for those pilots.

Who do you want flying your plane?

Who do you want protecting you? Pilots need not be paid more than police officers, firefighters and soldiers.

Would you take a 32% pay cut tomorrow without assurances that those at the top are doing the same or more to save your company?

I already have taken substantial pay-cuts without any assurances with regard to executive management. That's the real world, without the distortion of reality inflicted by unions.

And why shouldn't the workers have some say in how their company is run?

Because it isn't their company: It's the owners' company. If the workers want to own the company, let them invest their cash.

Unions once served a very valuable purpose, and had major positive impact on the world of work and on business itself. Somewhere along the way they've lost their way, and now only abuse their leverage.

 

[willise]

I tried to stay out of this thread, but it just got too interesting

I am a unionized employee as an air traffic controller at a very bust centre. There were studies going around a few years ago that said controllers should be equivalent to pilots in a number of ways. Pilots are, by law, restricted to a maximum number of hours of work in a day, week, and month. The clock starts ticking as soon as they sit in the cockpit. Controllers were told that this rule is not required for us. But when they found out that pilots of the large jets were earning sometimes a quarter of a million dollars a year, that put an end to any study!!

The point is, I guess, that your salary is greatly generated by the number of qualified applicants that can do the job. CEO's, controllers, pilots, doctors, lawyers, etc are part of a specific group of people with a very specific skill set. The unions recognize this and make the employer pay for the privelege of getting qualified personnel to work. Companies recognize this and that is why the best CEO's get paid the most. Are the salaries inflated?- maybe/probably. If there were only 1 in 10000 that could change car tires, how much do you think the cost of that would be. It is all based on supply and demand. THe only thing going in favour of Delta is that there are a lot of out of work pilots that would take those jobs in a heartbeat. The demand is there (passengers) but the supply is also available (pilots). That is why I think the union and Delta will come to terms prior to April 15th.

 

[roadtripper]

Thank you, NotUrsula, for your measured response. I am not familiar with the UAW jobs bank--who funds it? In my union, if we go on an extended strike, the federal union will step in to compensate for lost wages. We all contribute to a strike fund. Not sure if the UAW thing is the same, but I would agree that if it is funded by taxpayers' money, that is wasteful and wrong.


And, bicker to state that soldiers and pilots should be paid the same is an ideal (and I would pay the soldiers more, of course). However, a 19 year old who enters the military does not have the training that a pilot does. S/he should not be paid the same.
Workers are the company. If they do not show up tomorrow, you have no business. Workers don't invest their cash, they invest their labor and time--which has value. Whether or not we get Marxist in terms of who owns the means of production, you have to agree that the workers get the job done--they make you money.

 

[Disneyjosh229]

The clock starts ticking as soon as they sit in the cockpit.

And mind you this, preflight checklists usually start at least 45 mins within scheduled departure time.

My hearts go out to you poor ATC's. I listen to some live ATC feeds and those pilots can get a little crazy sometimes

 

[Disneyjosh229]

I am not familiar with the UAW jobs bank--who funds it?

The UAW jobs bank was started in the mid 80's. It was made for Lansing/Flint auto workers who's jobs were taken over from applied technology (mainly robots). The UAW gave the employees full pay at the job bank while they learned new manual trades. Over the years though, the UAW has morphed the jobs bank into anyone who was layed off. When it started, GM was funding the project. Now, you and I are paying for it indirectly through lost productivity, grants and incentives given to GM to build new factories by the local and federal governments.

 

[NotUrsula]

The UAW gave the employees full pay at the job bank while they learned new manual trades.

Which wouldn't have been so bad, if they all had learned new trades. However, that isn't what happened in many cases. Google the thing, and you'll find dozens of interviews w/ laid-off autoworkers who for years have been paid to show up, punch in, and sit in a room doing crossword puzzles for the length of an assembly-line shift. The agreement that set up the Jobs Bank was so watertight that they go even when there is nothing there to do, and they get full pay for it. Lots of them are sent out during the day to do volunteer projects; plant flowers, paint churches, etc., which is nice, but is it worth $31/hr? Now GM and Delco and trying desperately to get the program done away with in their UAW contract, but the UAW is insisting that it has to stay. Total boondoggle. If the UAW wants trade-school or community college tuition for these folks, then fine, but not full pay to do the crosswords.

 

[NotUrsula]

Workers don't invest their cash, they invest their labor and time--which has value.

But they *do* invest their cash; almost all of us do, directly or indirectly. Look at all those poor schlubs who worked at Enron. Most people who work for publicly traded companies own at least a little stock in them, and private companies often give out profit-shares as part of compensation. Like I said, even if you are blue-collar or a civil servant, it is at least part of your retirement money, and if the company goes under, you take a hit. We may not all be invested in airlines (I'm not), but there is a trickle-down effect that hurts in other ways. My city has lost about 6 F500 HQ's in the last 5 yrs., and every one of them cited cutbacks in air service here as one of the main reasons for relocation.

If a company is willing to invest what it takes to train workers, the workers they have are largely expendable -- if they quit there will be new ones to take their places. Airlines have long been in the enviable position of not having to spend much money to train pilots, as the public has been picking up that cost and supplying their qualifying airtime via the armed forces. Honestly, pilots are easy to find, and they come trained on the technical aspects -- if they learn to fly as civilians they will sell their mothers' souls for flight-hours. My brother was a freight pilot, trained courtesy of the USAF, and when he didn't have a current f/t piloting job he volunteered for all sorts of odd jobs delivering anything from machine parts to human organs for no pay, just to keep his hours up. Like many pilots, he would have given up breathing sooner than he would have given up flying.

 

[bicker]

Whether or not we get Marxist in terms of who owns the means of production, you have to agree that the workers get the job done--they make you money.

And to prevent us from "getting Marxist" they should get paid based on what value is placed on their work by the forces of supply and demand. No union should have the leverage to dictate who can and cannot work for a company. No union should hold business hostage to exact higher-than-rightful compensation for the workers.

 

[mojophone]

Tell ya what Bicker and all you other anti union business owners or employees. You try to find someone as qualified as I am to do my job and you will find that you won't have phone service because there aren't any people who have the skills I have obtained over the years that will work for the minuscule wages it sounds like you as a business owner would be willing to pay.

 

[goofy4tink]

Lets try to play nicely people.....starting to get a bit testy here!

 

[bicker]

I'm sorry you took what I said personally. I wasn't referring to you in specific, but rather was just discussing unions. In a free market, competition keeps economic efficiency high, and that's good for everyone in the long-run.

 

[Disneyjosh229]

Tell ya what Bicker and all you other anti union business owners or employees. You try to find someone as qualified as I am to do my job and you will find that you won't have phone service because there aren't any people who have the skills I have obtained over the years that will work for the minuscule wages it sounds like you as a business owner would be willing to pay.

Thats unfortunate that the non-unionized companies are missing out on such talent

 

[aloysius1992]

I'm sorry you took what I said personally. I wasn't referring to you in specific, but rather was just discussing unions. In a free market, competition keeps economic efficiency high, and that's good for everyone in the long-run.

Mostly agree but sometimes there are odd situations that result in what seem to be pay inequalities.

1983 There was an oversupply/lack of demand for Phd. Microbiologists. So A sugar company was advertising to hire at a PhD for 12k per year. A 2nd lieut was 14k, a computer programmer was 30k right out of our college.


BIL w/env. degree is a relatively new police officer for a town, less than 5 years total work experience since college. He makes 90k w/out overtime or details. More than my DH makes as an Airline pilot w/16 years military (so no military pension) and 10 years Delta.
Police pay has gone up. Pilot pay has gone down. DH wishes he had become a police officer.

 

[bicker]

I don't see anything wrong with that. Britney Spears makes a heck of a lot more than I do, and surely what she does requires less skill and knowledge.

 

[WDW LOVR]

A vote to 'authorize' a strike is at least two steps away from a real strike. In a former job, the union in my place of work would ALWAYS vote to authorize, which gave the small committee doing the negotiations the power to schedule a strike date. Even then, negotiations continued up to, literally, the 11th hour. I went through this cycle about 10 times in my days there and only once did a strike take place. Both sides need to seem as if they'll stop at nothing, even to the point of self-destruction, as the deadline approaches. I'm glad this will be resolved before I have to decide which carrrier to use in '07, but I'll come back here and eat crow if this strike happens. I just don't see it happening.

Bill From PA

Lets hope you're right Bill. Laurie and I have been following this closely as who do you think we fly on for our June trip? Yep, Delta. We both sit here not imagining the Pilots would go on strike knowing it would be the end of the Airline. If the Airline folds, who would it benefit? Not the Pilots who would be looking to start over at another airline at what I'm sure would be lower pay than they're making now. And especially not all the other Delta employees.

Our backup plan will probably be to drive. Not an appealing choice, but I can't see paying $1000-1500 for contingency tickets that we may never need or be able to use. I think for now we'll just wait and see what happens.

 

[bicker]

Something to keep in mind....

If the Airline folds, who would it benefit?

The other airlines, and the airline industry itself.

Arguably, the American taxpayer also stands to benefit, somewhat, but that benefit tempered by higher fares. So, really, the American taxpayer who flies infrequently stands to benefit.

 

[wdwfamilyinIL]

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/delta/stories/0408bizdelta.html

I don't know if this link will work, but it doesn't sound to positive. I am really hoping that they work this out, we can't afford to buy a second set of tickets, and I really hate the idea of telling my kids we aren't going....