Delta on my local news...

[angel's momma]

Thank you bicker for the full explanation.

I had picked up bits & pieces of some of the info from various threads, but it's nice to have it all spelled out like that.

 

[RevBob]

If a strike were to take place, given the info that is out there, when do you think that would be? Haven't seen or heard any firm date. Does anyone know if any possible date is being discussed by the pilot's union?

 

[wee-haggis]

Let's put a few things in a different perspective. If Delta pilots strike, they only get paid from a strike fund that won't nearly replace their current salaries. If the strike ends up killing the airline, they can't collect unemployment as their work action is not a forced situation (not a lockout or layoff). So at the end of the day, the pilots union choosing the strike option is not much of a win/win for them. It is, however, a bargaining chip if Delta thinks they can unilaterally cut the pilot pay. Let's not be too holier than thou on what pilots make. It takes lots of training at great expense to pilot the large planes. Most experienced pilots are well into their 40's before making captain at the major airlines. We pay doctors an average of $300K a year for similar experience in their profession at a similar age. You want the person in charge of 150 -350 lives day in and day out to be paid like a clerk at Walmart? I'm not sure I'd agree. In addition, everyone on here loves SWA, and they pay pilots on just about the same scale that Delta is now on and SWA makes money. I think the 30% reduction the pilots took last year has brought them in line with the industry. I don't care if you make $20K or $200K, a 30% reduction in pay hurts your pocketbook. I'm sure most pilots have bills to pay, kids in college, retirement worries, etc. that don't have sympathy to such a large pay cut and haven't adjusted themselves down 30%. This is just my opinion and I respect your opinion, although I don't agree with it.

You are absolutely correct. People are only too quick to jump on the backs of the pilots even although their 'well deserved" wages are being cut dramatically.The way I look at it is...if SWA can make a profit ,so can Delta (or any other major airline for that matter). The SWA equivalent airlines in UK (Easyjet and Ryanair are thriving). Where I come from (Canada),we have a so called "national" airline called Air Canada.When aircrafts are not full ...Do they offer anything like Dings?.....no,they'd rather fly half empty planes instead of offering last minute ,cost cutting fares.....Go figure!

 

[Wish I lived in Fl]

It's tough when reality comes knocking at the door but reality is that these are tough economic times. My family lives in fear everyday of the "100%" pay cu because dh works in the manufacturing sector. If we were faced with a 32% pay cut, he'd quit and try another company or we'd accept it. We don't have the luxury of a union. Yes, these pilots might have to sell their homes but isn't it better to sell your home and land on your feet than to lose your job completely? Essentially, Delta cannot remain in business 48 hours if they strike, meaning they'll lose everything. Will they be able to pay their mortgages easier when there are no jobs for them or they have to start at another airline at a much reduced wage than the 32% Delta is offering? Do the pilots not understand the term 'bankruptcy'? Or do they just think the Delta CEO can go out to the money tree in behind the head office and get some more? Realistically, cutting executive jobs/salaries would be a minor drop in the bucket compared to this pay decrease for some 5500+ pilots which CNN reports current make, on average $150,000 per year with the highest wage earners getting over $300,000. Delta made the gesture of cutting 1000 administrative and management jobs, where's the pilot's return gesture? And, BTW, those people will have to answer to the mortgage companies, too.

Sorry, but it's hard to feel sorry for them. Think of all the news you've heard about layoffs over the past year. Those people have lost everything. When your company is in Ch. 11, you're lucky if you keep your job, period. I'd bet any of those employees who've been laid off would eat dirt for $100,000 per year. Getting a 32% salary reduction sucks but it should be weighed against the economy and the alternative.

So because the economy is bad that means the pilots have to work at whatever terms the company dictates?


Is Delta Mgt. telling the truth, that a specific dollar amount of pilot pay cuts additionally will mean that it is profitable and any less that it is not profitable?

[Don't think it will be profitable until ticket prices rise myself, even if pilots worked for free. ]

Why did Delta Mgt. continue with the Logan terminal after 9/11 instead of cancelling and who will be paying for it now?

Why did Delta Mgt. sell their fuel oil hedges days before oil skyrocketed?

Why has Delta Mgt. been deliberately insulting and antagonistic to pilots?

Is Delta Mgt. incompetent or worse?




Maybe the DIP will fire this Mgt. team and get another.

 

[bicker]

if SWA can make a profit ,so can Delta (or any other major airline for that matter).

That's inaccurate.

So because the economy is bad that means the pilots have to work at whatever terms the company dictates?

Yes. Just like I do.

 

[mickman1962]

Yes. Just like I do.

and yes just like I do.

 

[snickerboo]

Yes. Just like I do.

And my family does. And thousands and thousands of North American families hve had to do in the past 5 years. That's the real world, people. We should say, "the money's not there but let's keep paying people what we did when we had it?" When times are tough, they're tough for everyone.....including airline pilots.

Pilots have dangerous jobs and are in charge of a lot of lives-so are police officers but they're not getting paid $150,000/year are they?

 

[CarolA]

My thoughts are that if the pilots don't like the conditions they should get out there and LOOK for a job. Yes, 32% is a huge cut, but the sad truth is that DL will not survive a strike. The creditors have made it clear they will call the debt in 24 to 48 hours, DL can't pay the debt and DL will be in liquidation. The pilots will have cost a LOT of other people thier jobs and "cut off thier nose to spite their face"

IF the pilots can find a flying job they will have NO seniority so the avg cut will be MORE then 32%, the pension they are fighting for probably won't even be offered. (SW does not have a pension only a 401K), and your senior pilots will go into shock at having to bid on "short routes" and fly a lot of days. (Senior pilots get first bid on routes and they LOAD thier schedules so they fly in bursts and get LOTS of time off!)


As for the Boston terminal.. that old one was so bad it was COSTING them money! Folks were avoiding DL just to avoid that nightmare!!! I personally don't want to fly out of a dump...

DL needs to continue to invest in planes, terminals etc... stopping is an admission of "we are going to fail" It's like Disney in one sense, people go back for new nice stuff. If Disney had never upgraded the CR, would you want to sleep there over 30 years later????

I don't think DL is really talking profit right now, they are talking survival.

 

[brentalex]

And my family does. And thousands and thousands of North American families hve had to do in the past 5 years. That's the real world, people. We should say, "the money's not there but let's keep paying people what we did when we had it?" When times are tough, they're tough for everyone.....including airline pilots.

Pilots have dangerous jobs and are in charge of a lot of lives-so are police officers but they're not getting paid $150,000/year are they?

But who are times really tough for? Ask the ceo of my company if he faces any hardships. As of June they will stop funding our pension plan. Is it because the company is hurting? NO. The company made billions of dollars of profits last year. They are cutting us, so that the upper levels get more and more. If the delta pilots give in, work hard, delta comes back from the brink, will they get back their money? Probably not, but you can be sure that the ceo will get a nice reward for saving the company. The rich in the country are having a great time, while trying to get everyone to think that all of us are hurting. While they are buying million dollar houses, the rest of us are struggling to get by. It is not always the employees who are greedy.

 

[bicker]

Pilots have dangerous jobs

Uh, no they don't.

and are in charge of a lot of lives-so are police officers but they're not getting paid $150,000/year are they?

Great point.

 

[mojophone]

Something it appears that quite a few of you are missing is this. I work for a unionized company. Our CEO and the other members of the board as well as All of upper management immeditely after laying off over 13,000 employees gave themselves a minimum 21% pay hike, The already make over 500,000 usd each. Our beloved CEO gave himself a 40% payhike not including bonuses and other perks, he made over 1.2 mil per yer before his raise. Now you all are telling me that this is ok? If you thinnk this is ok then you need to get real and take a look at the big picture. If you add up the salaries of the people that they laid off it equals slightly less than the amount of the bigwigs payhikes. In my opinion that is just plain wrong. You will also find if you do some digging that there are a number of big businesses pulling this type of stunt. They lay a boatload of employees off and/or force them to accept pay consessions then turn around and give themselves some seriously hefty payhikes.

 

[disneytraveler]

I have Delta tickets booked thru Delta for September and one for July booked
via travelocity . What should i do if Delta strikes ?

 

[roadtripper]

Gotta side with mojophone, brentalex, and others on this one. Look at any research on the pay of CEOS and its exponential increase over the past 30 years. We live in a culture that supports the excesses of those at the top-- Ken Lay anyone?--and decries unions as the downfall of Western civilization. I don't know how much training it takes to be a jet pilot, but I really hope the guy (or woman?!) flying my plane has had a lot of it, and companies should be willing to pay them well for it without passing the expense on to the consumer at every turn.
I am a teacher, and as such, a member of what some consider to be the worst union there is. We extended our contract last year, and less than a year later, they are asking for concessions, and pink slips are raining down like confetti. Meanwhile, we have hired two new "consultants" in my building and all administrators have nice new office furniture. Oooh-- and we painted the lockers too! We ran out of writing paper a few months ago, but whatever...

 

[Disneyjosh229]

The way I look at it is...if SWA can make a profit ,so can Delta (or any other major airline for that matter).

I hate to degrade your comment like this, but that is quite possibly the most wrong thing....ever!

 

[bicker]

Something it appears that quite a few of you are missing is this.

Don't be deceived. Most of us are very intelligent and saavy about business. We simply disagree with you. We believe that business works best when the markets govern what it does, the market for the business' products and services, and the labor market for salaries and wages. Unions abuse their leverage, which was once used for good to protect workers from harm; now unions destroy business by artificially inflating the cost of workers.

 

[Lewisc]

The real problem is the price of jet fuel and the airlines inability to increase fares to pay for it.

Management should have been cutting flights to price sensitive routes like the NE to FL instead of matching the prices charged by LCC, in an attempt to drive them out of business. I'm not sure we can even take Greyhound for the fares some of us have been getting from the NE to FL. Government bail outs gives the airlines too much protection from the consequences of bad decisions. For that matter government standby rules and credit card dispute/extended refund policies allow consumers to book deeply discounted tickets with financially distressed airlines without much risk.

First class is becoming a paradox. Business travelers want the airlines to have first class sections but want free upgrades. Those same travelers get upset when the airlines lower first class fares in order to try to fill those seats with passengers who're willing to pay something.

I'll agree with the previous poster, something is wrong if after the union agrees to re-negotiate an existing contract and give back money that they're contractually entitled to management gets a bonus for getting the unions to agree. Wage cuts should be across the board.

SW doesn't have a patent on fuel hedging, other airlines didn't think fuel prices would go up as much.

The legacy airlines "over charged" the business traveler and over charged some routes so they could price other routes below cost. This pricing model failed when business travelers circumvented the rules with techniques like back to back ticketing, booked LCC airlines and even used video conferencing as an alternative to flying. Passengers seem willing to use alternate airports as an alternative to paying high pricing.

 

[CarolA]

Something it appears that quite a few of you are missing is this. I work for a unionized company. Our CEO and the other members of the board as well as All of upper management immeditely after laying off over 13,000 employees gave themselves a minimum 21% pay hike, The already make over 500,000 usd each. Our beloved CEO gave himself a 40% payhike not including bonuses and other perks, he made over 1.2 mil per yer before his raise. Now you all are telling me that this is ok? If you thinnk this is ok then you need to get real and take a look at the big picture. If you add up the salaries of the people that they laid off it equals slightly less than the amount of the bigwigs payhikes. In my opinion that is just plain wrong. You will also find if you do some digging that there are a number of big businesses pulling this type of stunt. They lay a boatload of employees off and/or force them to accept pay consessions then turn around and give themselves some seriously hefty payhikes.

I get your point, but the pilots have TWO options JOB or NO JOB..

This debate on the right or wrong of mangement does not belong here. Please move it to the CB.

 

[Lewisc]

I get your point, but the pilots have TWO options JOB or NO JOB..

This debate on the right or wrong of mangement does not belong here. Please move it to the CB.

Carol--I think a discussion regarding pay cuts for management is appropriate. The choice isn't really JOB or NO job for the pilots but rather DELTA AIRLINES in business or out of business. The union would certainly be within their rights to make sure any contract reductions that they agree to is used to keep the airline running and not used for management pay raises or to reduce any management pay cuts that would otherwise be made.

 

[NotUrsula]

Everyones life style is based on how much they get paid. Someone earning that much probably has a mortgage based on that kind of salary. All of a sudden their pay gets cut by 32%. Will the mortgage company care?

With all due respect, any US commercial airline pilot who has been living right up to his/her means in this day and age is an IDIOT!! The airline industry has been in trouble for years, and anyone still in it who wants to stay in it knows that a good-sized nest egg and a somewhat frugal lifestyle is an absolute necessity for survival.

I live in a city that is FULL of *former* pilots and FA's, with most of them in sales of some sort or another. Most of them would fly again in a heartbeat if someone gave them an opportunity, but those opportunities are REALLY scarce. Around here even volunteer airtime hours are hard to come by.

 

[Disneyjosh229]

Unions abuse their leverage, which was once used for good to protect workers from harm; now unions destroy business by artificially inflating the cost of workers.

Correct...

Unions are no longer the "mediators" between the employee's and the companies, they now control how the company will be run, what the workers will and will not do and what the workers will be payed to do the least possible work for the most possible wage.