DEBATE: When does the "Disney Experience" cease to exist?

[DVC-Landbaron]

First a couple of bits of business. Mr. Matt! I owe you a PM! I am terrible at responding (I still owe JJ one and he isn’t even here anymore!! )! Sorry. I will soon.

Next montessori,

I get depressed thinking about the good ol' days at Disney. Maybe I'll start a thread about it! "Remember when....?"

I’ll gladly attend!! I got some really good ones!!

OK! Now down to it!

ohanafamily

OK Baron, here is an OBJECTIVE “Slam Dunk” about why Aladdin does not belong where they placed it.

HA!! You haven’t been around here much! No matter what I say the ‘opposition’ will not even give it a passing glance. without charges of subjectivity and bias!! But! What the heck! I’m game. We’ll give it a go.

Most of the rides that based on the animated movies are in Fantasyland. Snow White, Peter Pan, Winnie The Pooh… Etc.

Mr. Kidds!!! HEY!!! How about it? you know the rest of the post. And I present it as written. No added comment. No sarcasm. Just my wholehearted support!

Well, is it a ‘slam dunk’?

I await the further discussion, and Baron, this may wind up being a 10 pager

Yep!! It’s money in the bank!! Heck! We’re half way there already!!!

Professor:

For me - while I have been able to sense a decreased lack of attention to detail - richness of detail in particular - in the parks under Mr. Pre$$ler (note I paid attention to the proper spelling) it has not reached the point where the experience has ceased

I feel the exact same way! To a tee! I even agree on your take regarding the service aspect. (BTW. Thank you for spelling the evil one’s name right!!)

I do strongly agree that if this trend continues Disney is going to be just a great amusement park, but not Disney. In my opinion I do not think we have reached that point.

Again an agreement!! However, I think we are getting closer and closer all the time! And I find that sad.

WEDWAY100:

Wow the Baron copied a whole paragraph from me! That means I have to keep posting on this…

I copied it because it was perfect! And I find that once again I agreed with every word of your most recent post!!

Don’t be a stranger!! (MATT!! Is there room in the shotgun seat for another?)

And speaking of the marvelous Mr. Matt:

There are some who see nothing wrong with the current direction or philosophy. Many who subscribe to this belief use the "I still have a Magical time" argument. Unfortunately, that's missing the big picture.

How nicely put!! Mr. Kidds!! Peter!! You listening?

OK! That’s all for now. I decided to save Mr. Kidds for a bit. I don’t want to think right now. It’s a Friday and I want to go brain dead for a while!! (OK, hold the comments!!)

 

[raidermatt]

I owe you a PM! Sorry. I will soon.

Not a problem. At your convenience...

 

[montessori]

We're packing for Disney! We'll leave at about 6:00 a.m. so we'll get there about 9:00 a.m. Maybe we'll try Kona Cafe for breakfast!

Have a great weekend, I know we will!

 

[montessori]

We're packing for Disney! We'll leave at about 6:00 a.m. so we'll get there about 9:00 a.m. Maybe we'll try Kona Cafe for breakfast!

Have a great weekend, I know we will!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Maybe we'll try Kona Cafe for breakfast!

YES!!!! And if you've never tried it before, order the Tonga Toast!! Very, very sweet (you may want to split it with someone)!! But very, very good!! It's the only place in WDW that serves it!!

HAVE FUN!!!!

 

[space42]

Absolutely. Sure, Aladdin is for kids. Guess what, families often include KIDS!!!. I can very much say that POC, JC, the treehouse, are not very enjoyable for a 2 year old. Some three year olds might enjoy them, but not too many.

As a kid, Adventureland was my favorite part of the MK.
Going on a boat adventure through the jungle.. Being brought right into the middle of a pirate battle. Watching birds sing, then the entire room erupting with song. Exploring a giant treehouse. The Tiki Drums!! Thankfully, kids today can still have most of these experiences.

I think this is another misconception with the current Disney. They think that kids need kiddie rides (see Flicks Fun Fair at DCA, Aladdin at MK and PW at DAK). I think its just an excuse to build with the bare minimum imagination and budget. Most kids are easily entertained.

 

[ohanafamily]

I have been thinking... Since we are beating the poor Aladdin ride to death, how would I have designed an Aladdin ride for adventureland. This goes into the new "Lack of Imagineering" going into the new rides (that people keep on about in this thread)

OK, how does this sound. the line entrance is an open mouth to the Cave of wonders. you wind through a line of massive gold accents and wonders as only Disney can come up with. You enter the ride, the magic carpet, and glide past a lamp and fly over Aggriba. A 3-d action ride, similar to Spider-man at IOA, with Jaffar chasing you. Explosions Bounces, a feeling like the carpet is falling out from under you. A super E Ticket thrill ride. Too scary for young children, but something that would challenge the adults to wait for 3 hours in line. A 3-5 minute ride that has a continuous streem of cars going through it. The ride could actually be placed over the Aggriba Bazaar, giving an outdour bazzar rain shelter.

What do you think?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

ohanafamily

That’s a doozie of an attraction. BUT... it really wasn’t needed. We’ve got plenty of “E”-tickets in MK! And I really don’t think that was the purpose. For you and I the “purpose” of a new attraction is... well... THE ATTRACTION!! Of course it is!! And for Walt that was the driving force behind many of the attractions he worked on. I’m sure there were a couple, here and there, that were fillers, but by and large the concept was driven by the innovation of either the technology or the experience. And my guess is many times it was both!! To a certain extent this was also the driving force behind much of EPCOT.

But no so today. Hmmm. There’s a real Jewell of a post by the wonderful Mr. Head. He has the amazing knack to articulate my feelings, when I just know them as feelings (think he’s got a brain reading machine?). Let me see if I can find it! ....................

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Ah! Here it is!! It was hiding on page 4 of the “DEBATE: The Commerce and Business of WDW, and Walt Himself.” thread. Pretty interesting stuff. If you haven’t read it, please do so. I think it sheds some interesting light on these related subjects.

The difference between money being the goal and money being a tool you use in service of real goal is the difference between Aladdin and Pirates. The Aladdin ride is a cheap and common ride designed to provide a focus for the merchandise. The Pirates ride is a unique, creative tour-de-force, designed to entertain and delight... and it happens to be expensive to do that, so we're selling some overpriced crap to help us pay for it.

Pirates focused on the ride... the merchandising was intended to help supply Disney the money to do the ride right. Aladdin focuses on the merchandising... the cheap catalog-purchased ride was intended to help supply Disney the maximum profit margin on the merchandise.

Now, with this thought in mind, let’s take a look at where we stand. The Apologists and Justifiers would have you believe that Aladdin was built because the benevolent and compassionate Ei$ner (or his minions) saw a need to add a kid friendly ride in Adventureland. So they withdrew to their drawing boards and think tanks and came up with this wonderful concept!! They didn’t need an “E” ticket! They simply wanted to ‘give’ the poor deprived public something more. So a spinner would do! And they themed it bright and colorful because, well darn it anyway, it’s for the kids!!! (Kind of puts a lump in your throat, doesn’t it?)

Now I ask you. Logically, rationally and with all the candor you can muster, which reason do you think is the real one? Mr. Head’s? Or the Justifier’s?

In other words ohanafamily, an “E” ticket ride never stood a chance!!

 

[ohanafamily]

Sniff Sniff, I guess you are right. But without innovation are we not doomed to a very evil car#4 overflowing with people who's pixie dust has worn off? I hope not, but Aladdin is a little dated to be building a huge E-ticket ride now. I was just saying the way I would have planned it in as innocent a manner as possible. IOA is all about Coasters, and I hope M:S at Epcot will be at least on par with the Spiderman ride at Universal. I would like to see a couple of new, over-the-top rides to combat all the money US is spending on their themes.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Now I ask you. Logically, rationally and with all the candor you can muster, which reason do you think is the real one? Mr. Head’s? Or the Justifier’s?

A little of both. As someone around here pointed out, the world is a very gray place.

 

[Captain Crook]

Tsk, tsk, tsk Landbaron...You trying to agitate me???

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Kidds. True. Most of the world is gray. But Ei$ner’s motivations aren’t!!

Captain. YES!!

 

[mmouse52]

The experience stops as soon as I go to the market place, animal kingdom and Mgm. This is why when I return each and every year I stay at the Polynesian, and visit the Magic Kingdom and enjoy that simplicity. As a visitor since 1972 (literally on my 20th birthday) I do feel funny telling people that I"m returning to the Poly. Walt, I don"t feel would have wanted all the hotels and parks to go up. His idea was Anytown USA.. Eisner and Company have made it a grubby money making machine that actually is not making all the money it wants. I have to think each year if I really want to go back. I have loved it most of my life but do feel very upset when I see what has happened to the little "Village" that we once knew.

 

[Captain Crook]

mmouse53, you'd really be much happier at Disneyland, I think.

Landbaron, you should be ashamed of yourself...

 

[ohanafamily]

I'm So Confused!!!


I just finished watching a Travel Channel show about Disney behind the scenes. They make MI out to be the hero that took control and gave direction when the plans that Walt made were finished. They said that he created MGM before Universal came in, and raced to beat it. They also indicated that he was the driving force behind Test Track, and all of the great rides at WDW. I want to believe, but I see so much (evil car #4 type) doom and gloom, I feel like my head is going to explode

Please Help!
At Least I am getting the hang of the editor

 

[colleen costello]

We just watched this too, but more surprising to me than Mike Eisner was Walt himself -- he sounded like Ronald Reagan! Not content but his VOICE -- I felt like he was channeling Ronnie somehow...

So what are we to believe? I said to my husband, "Hey, the people on the DISboards think M.E. is EVIL..." I guess all the folks praising him need to keep their jobs, huh? In any case, the show was cool. I loved how they bought up the Orlando property in secret (FBI stuff!) and the old films of construction of the castle and Contemporary. I first visited in 1972... guess I am getting old.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Originally posted by colleen costello

So what are we to believe? I said to my husband, "Hey, the people on the DISboards think M.E. is EVIL..."

Not evil. Just inept. Very, very inept!!

 

[Planogirl]

I don't think that Michael Eisner is evil, I believe that he needs to have the right staff working with him to get virtually anything worthwhile done. I see ME starting to fail when Frank Wells and Jeffrey Katzenburg went away. I have high hopes for Mission Space but I'm leery to say the least.

DisneyKidds, I love the analogy to Star Wars. I don't consider myself aligned with the dark side but if anyone could point me in the direction of Han Solo, I could go with this.

We visited Six Flags over Texas today and spent plenty of time around spinners. The best thing about the Six Flags spinners is that they're not right in the middle of the walkways! Do I dare say that Six Flags, with all of its MANY warts and wrinkles, at least had sense enough not to do that? They're off to the side in paddocks of sorts, out of sight out of mind if a person wishes. One doesn't have to struggle through the crowds to get around them. Yes, I do agree with the placement complaint.

As for two year olds not enjoying Adventureland, I remember a certain two year old playing with a tambourine in one of the shops. The Tiki Birds were a hit and I got a little sick of the Jungle Cruise. I fail to see why a spinner, THIS spinner was really needed. What's next, a Davy Crockett canoe spinner in Frontierland?

By the way, this is a wonderful discussion.

 

[DisneyKidds]

DisneyKidds, I love the analogy to Star Wars. I don't consider myself aligned with the dark side but if anyone could point me in the direction of Han Solo, I could go with this.

"Luke............I am your father..........(add heavy Vader breathing for effect)" .

You see, even the leader of the dark side has so much in common with the pure one. Some of us hanging out with Luke like to think Vader just lost his way........... . Now Hans - he could just as likely be in car 4 as car 1. He likes to work with the good guys, but he is a loose cannon who could easily get sick of things and go off on his own.

Now for ME. Let's stipulate that 'Evil' = Bad for Disney - that might help the discussion as most don't think he is literally the spawn of satan . Now that we have that frame of reference, I will use my new favorite phrase................

Shades of gray, my friends. Shades of gray .

He has done many good things. He has forgotten where the focus should be. Some say he has done no good and never knew the focus. I don't really agree. I'll take the good and hope we can work throught the bad.

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
He has done many good things. He has forgotten where the focus should be. Some say he has done no good and never knew the focus. I don't really agree. I'll take the good and hope we can work throught the bad.

He has done good things. But the bad things he has done far outweigh the good. And even when he does do something good, it is with the wrong mindset which leads to problems.

I hate to get back into resorts, but you think the mods were okay to be built. Suppose, strictly for argument's sake, that I did agree with you (I don't, but....well....you get the idea). NOW, that good becomes bad because he can't FILL all of those rooms in those well-themed resorts. What good is a resort if there's nobody to stay there? Empty hotel rooms = cost increase for all involved. The management has to raise the rates so that those that DO stay there can cover the costs of running the hotel including the unused rooms.

All of those little wasteful rides like Aladdin add up. They keep putting up rides like this while jacking up admission rates. If we're going to pay more, shouldn't we essentially get more?

Here's an analogy for you. Michael Eisner being at the helm is like someone trying to get out of a cave without a map. He may hit a right path, but he'll take a wrong turn at that crossroads and continually get deeper and deeper and into the cave.