Debate: Tangible resort Differences

[*123JOANNA123*]

Personally, I think that Disney are simply exploiting the snobbishness of it's customers.

Disney knows that a certain type of punter wants 'the best that money can buy' and so charges appropriately. It's the old 'if I'm not paying $$$$ for something, it can't be any good' mentality. Similarly, they've tapped into the special occasion market- the one-time honeymoon, wedding, trip-of-a-lifetime vacationeers. These guys aren't going to stay in a moderate, they want 'special', they want 'magic'. Brand your hotel and pitch it as a deluxe and you have them.

To catch the 'I want value for my money' market, Disney created the moderates. These people want good quality, don't mind paying for it, but don't like to be ripped off. They see the deluxes for the emperor's new clothes that they are (or not depending on your opinion). Disney recognises the regular Joe who will never pay deluxe prices, but yet won't stay in the value hotels (back to snobbishness again).

IMO, the differences in deluxe and moderates are all to do with perception rather than physical attributes like theming or decor.

 

[Another Voice]

Actually, it was Eisner’s meddling which caused the Swan/Dolphin issue to be dropped into the courts where Disney lost both an immense amount of money and control. The original deal was extension of the thinking behind the Hotel Plaza – why does Disney need to worry about running a convention center. Disney runs theme parks, let someone else fret about getting enough stuffed olives for the American Institute of Plumbing Fixture Maintenance regional meeting.

Disney is about show. Let Disney run the show; let others run the minor businesses.

It’s a simple business philosophy called “making money at what you’re good at” – a philosophy that seems to have been replaced by “grab them by the wallet with mediocre offerings”.

Disney is doing absolutely nothing at the value resorts that could not be done cheaper and better by outside companies (and I’m not the only person to think that way). What’s “Disney” about providing just a room, a food court and a pool? Nothing but the name. While some think that a Howard Johnson’s operating on Disney property is a crime, many people think that Disney operating something less than a Howard Johnson is a crime too.


P.S. – If some are so upset about “third party” resorts on property, then why no shrieks of horror about all the third party theme parks owned and operated by third party owners. Or what about all those third party-owned shops and restaurants throughout WDW. They’re in the parks, the retail centers, the hotels (oh, you didn’t know some of the Disney resort restaurants aren’t Disney?). You’ll find that a lot of WDW is less Disney than you think.

 

[Lewisc]

AV--Universal decided to have Loews run their hotels. They seem to have done a good job.
With regard to the original question: Deluxe hotels have interior corridors which allow for balconies and patios. The deluxe hotels have more resort type amenities: extensive shops, full restaurants, more extensive room service, more resort activities (marinas, more elaborate pools, spas....). Sorry, I think the differences between the resort classifications pretty clear cut.

 

[YoHo]

Lewisc,
Yes the definitions are clear cut, my question is how many are a matter of policy as opposed to true expense.

As I have gather from this thread, these are the fundimental construction differences

1) Interior Corridors facilitating Balconies
2) Smaller size/Larger rooms.
3) certain room amenities such as Central Air/vs little window unit.

Now here's a question, did Diseny spend less capital to bring you these moderates then they did the deluxes?

I suspect based on past expireance at these boards that they did not. making the rooms smaller saved them little, central air and interior corridors added expense, but enough to justify double the rack rate? I doubt it.


All of this I'm using to draw the conclusion that it would take little or no capital expense to turn a Moderate into a deluxe. Just perhaps an additional resturant.


As to the Touchy feely part of this thread. Not liking the Polynesian is unAmerican.

 

[Another Voice]

Well, where to begin…

“Disney World should be a place where the real world is excluded. I don't want to see an Exxon or a National Car rental while there. I want to leave that stuff to the everyday deals of life”

“I would not have a problem if HoJo or Motel 6 "operated" the AllStars or if Marriott "operated" CBR--as long as they remained completely in the background out of sight.”

All I can say is that some of us want to buy value, not just a Disney® sticker. I'll go with whatever company gives me the most of what I want for the money I'm willing to spend.

Disney simply can’t not provide the best product in every available field. Right now they seem to even be having trouble even making good movies and popular theme parks My self worth is not so wrapped up in a corporate brand that I need to hide from the real world and delude myself that because of Disney® Magic my car does not need gas to make it all the way back the airport.

Frankly, I want Disney to say that they don’t do cheap, concrete box motels. They have a place, and other companies do them well for that market. But Disney isn’t in that line of business. I’d rather them focus their energies and capital on the stuff that they do produce well and leave the other stuff alone. While they built thousands of low end motels rooms on property, the stuff that Disney used to do so well has been cheapened to nothing but rather bad carnival rides.


P.S. – If WDW is supposed to be a magical escape from the real world, perhaps they should start with fewer real life grabs at my real life credit cards.

 

[Lewisc]

Yo-Ho--As you move up to more expensive items (hotels, restaurants, cars) you can't justify the incremental cost if you just try to quantify what extra you get. Auto companies make most of their profit on the luxury items.
Deluxe hotels = interior corridors= balconies. The interior corridors add to the consutruction costs, heating and maintenance costs.

Some of the amenities (room service and honor bar) may not generate as much net revenue as we think. Not sure how many people actually use them but their availability is a cornerstone of a deluxe resort.
For the most part the common (lobby) areas of the deluxe properties are more heavily themed. More expensive to build and maintain.
These factors (plus the superior location) is why those resorts sell at a premium. It's interesting to note the percentage discount is frequently higher on the deluxe properties.

Frankly I find it hard to justify a value or moderate resort. I think I can get a better value offsite (driving to the park really isn't any more of a problem than taking a bus). To me the deluxe is where I get something special.

 

[All Aboard]

This discussion seems to be flying off in all sorts of directions. What I have gleaned is that YoHo is trying to determine what costs exist in a deluxe that do not exist in a moderate. With hopes, I believe, in stating that the moderates have much lower margins than the deluxes because they basically cost the same to build.

It's an interesting notion. One that causes us to consider the reason why the moderates exist. I believe that they are a strategic decision. I think that Disney is willing to give up margin at these properties in order to capture market share.

But, how much margin are they giving up? Let's think about capital costs. First, the architectural fees are certainly much lower for, say Dixie Landings than Wilderness Lodge. Also, the construction of many similarly designed "village" buildings is much cheaper on a sf basis than a massive Lodge structure. I think we'd find that there is a fairly sizable difference in constuction cost per room at a deluxe v. a moderate.

How about operating costs? Seems that the CM to guest ratio climbs as you move up the Landbaron Caste Ladder. Bigger rooms take longer to clean, use more AC to cool (especially with opening balcony doors) etc. There's likely a healthy difference in variable costs per room as well.

But enough to equate margins? My guess is no. I'd bet that the deluxes operate at somewhat higher margins than do the moderates. So, it's likely Disney decided to pursue a wide guest mixture in terms of economic abilities as well as spending preferences, in order to boost lodging market share.

Unlike others, I think it's a wise strategy. Even if you don't like the All Stars, their presence does not likely cause the potential Grand Floridian guest to choose not to stay at GF. So, who are you hurting? The brand? Not likely. It seems that a tiny corner pocket of the world known as Disney Geeks seem to be the only ones who give a flying darn about "what makes a Disney resort a Disney resort." And for that matter, there are tons of fans of the All Stars. Many who think it "is Disney". They love them and flock there, angering Landbaron in the process.

If the presence of the All Stars has caused fewer folks to desire the "better" accomodations. Then, you have to question the value of the "Disneyness" of the better accomodations. People will choose what they want, not what you give them.

I think the All Stars and moderates provide my family with great value. At $49-$84 most times of the year, I would never choose to stay anywhere else. If $200+ rooms were the only option, I can GUARONE-TEE that I'd be staying offsite, each and every time I travelled to WDW. Disney wanted me (and millions like me) as customers - they filled our need.

Caste system discussions and watering down the Disney brand are interesting, but honestly meaningless to the vast majority of the public. Another Voice often says (when hammering Animal Kingdom) that it's what the public wants that is important.

The difference between a WDW and a Six Flags theme park is clear to almost everyone. I think the difference between the All Stars and the Holiday Inn on US 192 is clear to many as well. That's why they are willing to pay more for it.

 

[YoHo]

Hey Gcurling, previous to the current economic situation, How much did 192 motel cost per night rack rate?

I spent the night in Seattle Last Saturday. I paid $84 for a Jacuzzi room at a Fairfield. Reasonably nice room. This was near SeaTac Airport, so the Rates are inflated appropriatly.

My point (I think) is that All Stars are price competitve with normal hotel/motels.

Now here's a question, what are Disney's Margins with the All Stars?

gcurling, you deduced my purpose accuratly and thankyou.
I too have no problems with Disney entering the moderate market. (I avoid the All stars for subjective reasons which you are all too aware of) I can agree with Landbaron about the Grand Floridian, but some of the moderates just scream Disney.

(I can also agree with the US based theme instead of foreign theme Lament, but that is a different subject altogether)



Here's my thing Disney is selling an expireance. Walt wanted to sell strictly one expireance. to that end he relegated any other expireance to outside companies.
Disney's current attitude to use an internet Phenomina that most of you will not understand at all is All Your bases are belong to us. They want to be everything to everyone. My curiosity amounts to what would it take to make a Moderate part of Walt's Expireance?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

My oh my!! Miss 8 hours – miss a lot!!!

So first things first!! We’ll go in order for a while. So, Scoop, you just gotta wait! Besides, AV seems to be handling you rather well, I’d say!!

Sir Larry,

We are not far apart on this issue at all. But I think we have a little difference when it comes to defining the resort magic.

I liken the resort issue to restaurants.

I cannot come to terms with that analogy. It’s too small. The scope of a resort is… well… bigger! It’s more akin to a theme park. Or at least an extension of the theme park. A restaurant is too confining, too narrow in scope. It’s like talking about one particular ride. Dumbo, the fast food joint and Pirates, the elegant dining experience. But to me, the resort experience is different. Much more like the whole theme park. The entire SHOW built of little pieces all tied together in a neat package. Really all you’re talking about in a restaurant is the theme of the building and costumes for the wait staff. A resort, especially a “Disney” resort, is much more than that.

It wouldn't have to have a sitdown restaurant or monorail access.

You talk about ‘amenities’ as if they can (or worse yet should) be different from place to place. As if it were perfectly fine that one resort has nothing but a bus stop and the other has “magical” transportation. I look at it as if that “magical” transportation was a given!! It’s a Disney resort, by God!! They have to provide something more than a bus!!! It’s part of the magic. It’s part of the ‘experience’. I can get a bus from the local Quality Inn. I can’t catch a monorail or boat from there. I can see a bus on any main street in Chicago. But I can’t see the monorail. This aspect alone was soooo embedded in the natural order of things that even the campgrounds had wonderful ‘magical’ modes of “Disney” transportation at one time.

Now, I’m not so hard lined that I can’t see a slight (emphasis on slight) price differential between certain views or even room size. But that’s within the resort. And ALL the resorts, in this respect, should be equal. Want a larger room in the Poly. Sure! No problem! $15.00 more! You want a larger room in the All-Stars? Sure! Again, no problem! And again, $15.00 more! But the standard size, the standard view, the standard transportation, the standard pool and the standard “magical experience” have ALL got to be the same!!! Otherwise there are no standards!! And just a glance at the Floridian compared to the All-Stars tells you that there are two very different sets of standards. There are actually many more. So, the “Disney-Resort-Standard” has been tossed out the window!! And you can see where that leads! No? Well it leads to Pop Century, of course!! And who knows!! We may not be at the bottom of the barrel yet!!! Scary, isn’t it?

OK. Back to the analogy at hand. A restaurant is an eating establishment that by its very nature has a wide variety of food choices. And those different choices of the ‘menu’, naturally lead to different pricing structures and costs incurred. Now, the ‘quality’ of that food has to live up to a certain standard. And it shouldn’t matter at all if you’re talking about a hot dog or lobster, the ‘quality’ of the given food item must be maintained. But room size and transportation and most other things that other hotels call ‘amenities’ are simply not the same! It’s an ‘experience’ to stay at a Disney resort. Why? Because of the service given and the amenities received (and the really important bit) for the money paid!! And that ‘experience’ should not change from resort to resort. And it cannot, under any circumstances, fluctuate in accordance with the price. The Show is the Show after all!!!

So when we talk about the “standards”, the Disney standards, for a restaurant, we’re talking theme of façade, “quality” of food and some little (but very important) plusses added here and there for texture and the good old Disney “touch” (Mickey head butter anyone?). And it is paramount that these standards are maintained for Victoria and Albert’s as they are for Pecos Bill’s. What we are NOT talking about are menu choices. We are NOT talking about Lobster bisque vs. chili. We are NOT talking about different caliber of attractions. Or one ride mechanism vs. another.

We ARE talking about overall experience. The SHOW!!! And transportation, water (lake or river), table dining, valet service, unique pools, and a myriad of other “amenities” go into creating that “resort experience” SHOW. Once all the basics are covered, and for lack of a better term call them ‘amenities’, then and only then, can you start talking about theme vs. decorations. Or put another way, once the script is written for the SHOW, only then can the design of the set begin!!!

That’s why I asked for nuts and bolt differences. And today, no doubt about it, there are differences. Both higher and lower. I just contend that there shouldn’t be. The SHOW should be the same from resort to resort. The script has been written!! Only the set should change!

If you stay at the Poly you “experience” a Disney resort, in a South Seas setting. If you stay in the Contemporary you “experience” a Disney resort in a futuristic setting. If you stay at the Asian you “experience” a Disney resort, in an Asian setting. If you stay at Port Orleans you “experience” a Disney resort, in a Cajun setting (except it’s not quite the same Disney experience, is it. Somehow, it’s a little less). If you stay at the All-Stars you “experience” a Disney resort, in a… WHOOPS!! Just ran out of standards here, didn’t we!!

One last thought on the subject. A little mind game. OK. It’s 1968 and you are heading up the team that will bring resorts to the Florida Project (not yet even called WDW). Disney has never built resorts or put a SHOW on in one. So the page is blank. There is no precedent. And you are charged with the task of creating this Disney experience for resort guests. A resort “SHOW” if you will. You get to put the whole package together. How they check in, check out, dining options, transportation, the whole ball of wax. The theme, unfortunately has already been decided and another creative team is working up the final design. But you get to ‘write the script’ for the guest experience. So, what’s in and what’s out? Do you copy the industry standard or do you use it only as a guide to be sure nothing slips through the cracks? There are no right or wrong answers. You are truly reinventing the wheel. In Disney style!! But be mindful that you will be setting the Standards of what will follow. You are creating a SHOW that will be mirrored in all other future “Disney” resorts. So have fun, think guest and dream BIG!!

Now, that you’ve thought about that for a while let me add that this is exactly what happened in the design phase of WDW. Someone, or some group, sat down and decided the nuts and bolts of a Disney resort experience. From the guest point of view. Now, we can argue the rightness and wrongness of that experience. We can discuss whether it was a good thing or a bad thing not to include food courts. Were they right when they made absolutely sure that you could NEVER see the parking lot from your window, and is that really important? We can talk about including a turn down service and a chocolate mint on the pillow. But that really isn’t the issue. The issue is that these Standards were created. And they were applied equally BECAUSE they were the standards. Because it was the ‘experience’. Because it was… well… the SHOW!! If you chose to stay at a Disney resort THIS is what you got. Didn’t want that much? Fine! Stay at the Days Inn down the street. Want more? There are many TRUE deluxe resorts to choose from in the area. But these are Disney resorts. They are different, in scope and price, from anything else in the world. Created and operated by Disney. With Disney standards. And that famous Disney SHOW!! It’s just that simple.

Anything less (OR MORE!!!) and it’s suddenly NOT the definitive Disney resort experience. It’s simply NOT the same SHOW. And you’ve muddied the standards. Or, in Ei$ner’s case thrown them out totally!!!

Don’t believe me? Take a good look at Pop Century. And it doesn’t matter if you like it or not. Just tell me what standards they used when that thing was concieved?!?!

 

[space42]

You know.. I've stayed out of this thread because I have not stayed at too many of the Disney resorts. I usualy camp at Ft. Wilderness. One thing I can tell you is that Ft. Wilderness was built with the same "standards" as the Polly and the Contemporary. You even have the "magical" boat transportation to the MK. Along with a sit down Restruant and a Dinner show. The theeming of the buildings is on par with Frontierland. I get all this at $~30 per night (granted, I'm sleeping in a tent and thats not for everyone). But how can they put on this same "show" at $~30 per night? I bet if they were building a campground today it would not have any of these same "plusses".

Perhaps Ei$ner and Pre$$ler just don't know about it sshhhhhhhhh, don't tell them either

 

[Another Voice]

Psst -- Inside info (lean close so no one else can hear)…

The only business reason to even build the moderates was to capture market share. Eisner didn’t want to put out all that money for more deluxe hotels and he wanted to make a great return. The financial idea of the moderates as first created at the Caribbean Beach resort was to trade margin for volume. Sure, you make a few less percentage points per room, but the total number of rooms means you bring in more absolute dollars. That’s why Dixie Landings and Port Orleans are both so elaborate and so huge.

Then someone is rumored to have seen the margins of the room out on I-Drive and said “it looks like plush to me”. The margin/volume was tweaked so that a new class of motel would get the same margins as the deluxes but at the volume of the moderates. The money would flow in faster than they could count.

Problem was, the story goes, that Disney didn’t understand it’s guests. Seems there are two kinds of people that go to WDW – those that go for a resort experience, and those that go to see Disney World. The resort types like fancy pools, room service, corridors and bell hops. Since the moderates didn’t offer any of these, they stayed at the deluxe. But the Mouse-types are really looking for a cheap room. Before, they could only get their Disney-fix by paying the big bucks. Now suddenly they could still stay on WDW property but save some money. For these people, WDW is the parks and activities, not the having a women’s clothing store in the lobby.

What shocked people was that the moment the “value” resorts opened, all these frequent visitors rushed to them and abandoned the moderates. It’s actually very logical when you think about – these people want cheap rooms so they can visit WDW more often or spend their money on other things (how many times have you heard “I’m only in the room to sleep”). It’s just that no one at Disney had thought through the behavior of their own best customers.

So now Disney is faced lots of empty hotel rooms at not-so-great margins (the worst of any class actually). They are a class of hotel that doesn’t appeal the people out for a big vacation, and a class of hotel that’s too expensive for frequent guests.


P.S. Mr. Scoop, you quote simply proves my point. The Old Disney understood there's nothing magical about running a convention center. Let Tishman worry about setting up the tables to pass out the name tags, Disney will entertain the conventioners and they're families. Eisner, just greedy to grab money without coming up with a profitable business plan, lands the company in court with a $1.5 billion weight hanging over on its head. And guess what happened - Disney still lost and someone else built and runs the convention center but now they have a hostile relationship right in the middle of the property. The convention center that was planned by those old, stupid, lazy, unbusinesslike creeps you hate so much was south of I-4 where it wouldn't have destroyed Epcot's skyline. Wouldn't that have been better than what Saint Michael coughed up?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

space42,

I started at Fort Wilderness and I still go there during Spring breaks and even stayed two weeks there last summer. You, my friend, see what I see!!! Maybe everyone should go there and live a Disney experience (that SAME experience as the Poly once had) before they cast aside my caste system!!!

Thanks for the backup!!!

 

[YoHo]

Mr. Voice, You talk about something I've been espousing for a While. The moderates are the Redheaded step Children. And thus how better to fix the problem then to Fix the Resorts (In the landbaron sense).

Oh and for the Record, Fort Wildernesses Second form of Magical Transportation, was shut down, because the Imagineers that Designed it back in the late 60s early 70s made a stinker. It's the ultimate example of a non-Eisner Disney screwing up. A Bus without a muffler would have been more magical.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I simply disagree that the "name" alone is that big of a difference.

Gee! I can’t for the life of me think of one bigger! You want the Disney SHOW, you stay in a Disney resort! You want to be close to the magic but either don’t want or can’t afford Disney, Howard has a bed for you. I think it worked perfectly!! Let’s look at it real close. It’s not complicated:

SHOW = Disney Resort

NON-SHOW = Every other resort in the world!!

So, if you want that Disney touch, what do you think your choice would be? That’s right. The SHOW. Or a Disney Resort!!

And if Disney accommodations were too expensive or you didn’t care about the differences? Right again. Some place without the SHOW or Any other resort, hotel or motel in the world.

How much more of a difference do you want!?!?!

Frankly, that sounds a whole lot like simple "branding" satisfaction.

Sorry! I really claim ignorance on this one. I don’t even begin to understand this sentence!!

Looking back at some ads and brochures from even 1984, it appeared pretty obvious that these hotels were being presented as "Disney World" hotels.

NO THEY WEREN’T!! They were close to the Magic. They were the next best thing to being there. They were in no way shape or form a DISNEY resort. And you’d really have to be pretty dense to miss the big orange HOWARD JOHNSON’S over the front door!!! Come on Scoop. You’ll have to do better than that!!!

Are you seriously saying that someone back in the 70’s might have confused the Travel Lodge with the Poly!! Or thought for one single solitary second that the same company was responsible for both?!?!?! Come on!! Get real!!!

If a resort is allowed to be built on Disney property, it should be built by Disney (including the S/D although legal missteps of previous regimes really caused this one).

That’s utterly and absolutely ridiculous!! Heck, Scoop, for all anyone knew they weren’t even on Disney property!! Remember, no one drove on the property. And they were neatly tucked into a very desolate corner of the world. It was VERY inconvenient to stay at one of those places as opposed to the Poly or Contemporary. They were close, but nothing resembling the real thing. (and your misstep about the missteps of previous regimes! Please Scoop! Stop implying things that are simply not true!! No more misinformation through innuendo!)

 

[Shinji]

This thread has gone all over the place. I like that but, to address the original question about tangible differences between Moderate to Deluxe resorts..

concierge option in Deluxe
Less Dining options (sitdown and Food Court) in moderate
Less Lounges/Bars in moderate
Less or No Gym/Health club access w/moderate
slightly smaller rooms in moderate

I posed the same question for my sister before my last WDW vacation. She is the one guilty of talking me into going to Disneyworld in the first place. I would probably feel different
about the whole thing if I had sentimental childhood memories of WDW, but I do not.

Someone mentioned that the differences in the resorts is subjective. I agree with that statement. I really liked Another Voice's post (I generally do) and would like to elaborate on it a bit. It really comes down to what you expect. My group decided we do not go to Disneyworld for the "Resort" Attraction anyway. We go to be in the parks, DTD and PI. We barely spend 6 hours per day in the resort and are asleep during that time. (~2:00 am to 8:00am) I could care less about a gym or health club. Walking 5-7 miles a day around WDW is enough exercise for me. I might eat breakfast or get coffee at the resort food court and have a nice sitdown at Epcot or DTD. If I wanted to eat at a resort sit down, I can just go there. Disney's idea of Concierge sounds to me like slighty better customer service with access to a snack food/drink buffet. No thanks...

For those who think they should drop $300+ a night for a place to sleep at WDW, More power to ya. I think it is great that Disney gives their guests choices about how much money they want to part with. I would think nothing of spending good money on a room where the object of the vacation is a view; Anywhere everything is authentic versus themed (Example for me: Europe, Japan, Mountains, Oceans, the real caribbean)

As far as the question of the value resorts being Walt approved, I doubt it. I doubt he would call many of the resorts a "show". I happen to think that All stars is one of the places that gets me in enough of a goofy mood to really enjoy Disneyworld. (not a pun, I am serious) Where else in the world can one sleep in a room with a Giant icon attached to a gaudy colored building?? LOL

My first experience with WDW was Sept 1999. There was no "disney magic" in loosing the 2 days in the parks for the 4 people that I paid for upfront when they closed for hurricane floyd. My ignorance to "Length of stay" versus "1-day hopper passes" cost me money for absolutely nothing in return. Perhaps then, I would have been happier "trapped" in a nicer resort. Still, It would not have mattered to me when they closed the parks on us again 9-11-01.

 

[DisneyKidds]

My oh my!! Miss 8 hours – miss a lot!!!

Sheesh.... try missing two days .

First off.........

Pass.

quote:

I think there is a reason LB passed . Come to think of it, all he really drones on about is the caste system, but nary a word on the important stuff.

Every time I try to get out... They pull me back in!!

I sound like Scoop now, but mission #1 accomplished . But I do love to do more than suck Mr. LB in .

Now on to some discussion point (and so many different lines to cover ).

quote:

Safety, Courtesy, Show, Efficiency - what is missing?

The "Disney touch".

Hmmmm..... now the almighty standards aren't enough? How interesting. BTW - I disagree with the lack of "Disney touch" (surprise, surprise ).

YoHo!! This is way too subjective!! And every fiber in my body SCREAMS STAY AWAY FROM THIS THREAD!!!! But what the hay!!

Wait, what is that....? Something I completely agree with Baron on? Can't be. However, I can't stay away either.

As I said in the last paragraph, “Some of it is truly Disney in style, theme and feel.” But that doesn’t necessarily make it Disney!! There is one more very important consideration. Price!! Cost!! VALUE!!!

At least! I have finally figured the Baron out! We have come back to this too many times. Baron is a cheap SOB and price is the only major downfall (AS excluded) with the Disney resorts. That is why he is so hung up on the caste system. Wow, I have seen the light .

Well, I’ll tell you. Mr. Kidds could have saved himself from a mild case of carpal tunnel if he had used this tactic.

Ah, my surgeon can use the money - and I have no desire to get into "he said, she said", 'if pigs could fly' discussions .

Animal Kingdom and Wilderness Lodges are my favorites. IF it were not for the price! An issue you totally ignored!!!!!

Careful here Mr. Baron. These are the two resorts you can pretty much get for the CPI inflated 1972 rates, without any major discount. Tread lightly, my friend, because you jeopardize your one, lone, potentially strong argument about cost and value (you cheap SOB ).

I have only to add that it is the inclusion of these hotels that helped keep the Disney brand (Standard and Philosophy) pure and the caste system out of WDW!!

I'm with Scoop on this Disney Village hotel subject. You can talk about protecting the brand all you want (hasn't selling the 'brand' always been looked at as a bad thing around here?) but this is all smoke and mirrors. Not sure when the tag was applied, but these hotels were OFFICIAL HOTELS OF WDW, with ON-SITE RESORT GUEST BENEFITS. I don't care who ran them (and neither did those staying there) - these were WDW hotels. You say that weren't 'Disney' hotels. Splitting hairs I say. Officially, WDW was designed to have different types of hotels. As Scoop pointed out, maybe people wondered why HoJo's, et. al. would be WDW hotels - so Disney created their own moderates which they could do much better, with good show - a Disney experience. Maybe Walt was just plain wrong to not include 'Disney' moderates in the Master Plan. The discussion regarding margins and volume, etc. is very interesting, but all that would be looked at regardless of motivation. The bean counters need something to do (I say that being a bean counter myself). Maybe the motivation was mixed. I am at a loss on the AS .

Now, I certainly don’t want to turn this into a debate about the sorry state of Disney transportation, but are you talking about that same boat ride that I took almost every day for two week a year ago and also took several times this past July? It most certainly cannot be!! You HAVE to be talking about some other boat!! Because the one I stood in line for an average of twenty minutes took about twenty minutes to a half an hour to make the trip!!! Add that glorious transportation magic together and I come up with at least a half an hour and most times closer to an hour to reach my destination by that stinking boat!!!!

Other than Mr. Baron getting a little carried away (as he is prone to do, IMHO ) with the 'most times an hour' song and dance - I have to agree with him regarding this state of transportation at my home resort .

Whew - I think that is enough for now, but I'm sure I missed something. Oh well, my carpel tunnels are acting up anyway.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

It’s late and I really don’t have time to devote to this right now, so just a couple of quick thoughts. Tomorrow I’ll answer in full.

Hmmmm..... now the almighty standards aren't enough? How interesting. BTW - I disagree with the lack of "Disney touch" (surprise, surprise)

The touch is an intricate part of the standards. Surely you knew that!!??

Now, out of all the drivel you typed, this is by far the most salient. And I can also try to reign in my (and everyone else’s) ramblings and wonderings a bit and start to focus on YoHo’s question.

You mentioned that you disagreed. That the moderates do indeed have the Disney “touch”. OK! Fair enough. What are they? In other words what ‘touches’ do you see in the moderates that are missing from the economies? That’s as good a starting place as any, I’d say. And if you can answer that one, what “touches” are missing from the moderates that are apparent in the deluxe resorts? Can you quantify them? Can you list them? Can you account for the price differentials? Because to be quite honest with you I can’t easily do that. I can point to Pop Century and say, “See!? That’s what I’m talking about!” And most people on this board would immediately understand the message I’m trying to convey. Even, I dare say, you!!

And quite frankly, I use the same argument for the other classes. For instance, I point to Port Orleans and say, “Well it’s nice. And they came so close. But it ain’t no Disney joint!” And I really expect EVERYONE to not only see what I see, but completely agree with me as well. To me it IS that apparent!! And I am usually shocked that people don’t get it!

I seriously thought my little “bicker-like”, flip answer of a “Disney touch” would be argument enough. I half expected you to say. “Ahhh! I see! Yes! You are right! There aren’t many “touches” now, are there? How could I have been so blind! Thank you LandBaron, for setting us all straight!!!” It’s really that plain to me.

But you don’t see it. And I understand that. I fully realize that you do NOT see what I see. But I’m really at a loss to try to explain it further. So maybe you could help. Why don’t we go about it the other way and you can try to tell me what makes this a “Disney resort experience”. Just what makes it a true Disney SHOW?

Hmmm. Come to think of it, that’s probably all I want to say anyway. So....

Your turn

 

[airlarry!]

Maybe 'cause I've never stayed at the Poly or Contemp, I just can't see this angle.

If you wouldn't have told me that CBR or DxL or PO is nicer than the monorail hotels, I would never have known.

My family and I truly love the moderates that we have stayed in. The only thing that bugs is the use of the bus transportation. Big ugly white bus? Why can't they think up something different, even something as benign as a differently themed bus for each resort? Don't tell me they can't, 'cause they have different ones for the Disney Cruise. And they have different ones for the Tokyo resort. Just something that lets me know that I am at the Show, not at the Moderate Bus Resort.

Back to your point, LB. Is it one of those things that I just won't understand until I stay at a monorail resort? I'm being serious here. My whole family feels immersed in the Disney Magic when we are at the Mods.

As for the Value resorts...it is hard to deny that there aren't some Disney touches...but if anyone is interested I could give you a whole list why I don't think the Values are really Disney Magic resorts...including one quick one...from almost every building (especially the back ones), it is a 'magical' walk through your parking lot to your car to drive to a park...cause the bus station is so dang far away from your hotel room. Adults, maybe its easy. Teens, probably okay. Try dragging a 3 year old at 7 a.m. through the big grounds over to stand in line for a bus.

 

[d-r]

Yeah scoop, but big river in most cities will have better beer than on the boardwalk...
DR

 

[YoHo]

Scoop, I'd just like to say that I'd personally prefer that Disney build a travellodge style complex then an abomination like Pop Century. I'd actually have far fewer problems with it. a fact I have espoused before. Walt didn't want a part of the motel market...Fine, but If the company IS going to get into it, they shouldn't cheapen the expireance. Give them the Disneyland Hotel East and charge Value rates. it would be far more acceptable to me then poor themeing and atrocious color combinations.