Debate: Tangible resort Differences

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by Mooobooks
Sentiment is what we're really dealing with, here. For many, such as WDW Hound, the Contemporary and Poly have a nostalagic value.

I will Grant you that I have some sentimental attachment to the Contemp, but I still think it stands well on its own. I will however agree that it is not magical and Walt might consider axing it. I will not Grant this one the Poly, which many people is the most magical resort in WDW.

In the case of the Contemporary, it has fared less well than its companion Epcot (which, frankly, is where the Contemporary should have been built).

The Contemp was built exactly where it needed to be. It was deisgned to complement Tommorowland's futuristic architecture and was place to be seen from there. Epcot was not yet built when the Contemp was constructed and they didn't know if they would ever build it at that time.

In its original incarnation, Epcot reflected Walt's unpleasant idea of the future where you saw mostly concrete and plastic rather than trees and wood. In other words, Walt really seemed to think that everything was going to look like Jetsons-land. Thank goodness it doesn't!

Actually, Walt's orignal plan for Epcot had lots of trees and green space. Regardless, I don't think Duisney (or anyone else ) is building enough "Jetsons" like buildings. I have a picture of the original Tommorrowland on my computer desktop just becuase it was is visually appealing. The Contemp was always an attractive building (especially before they stuckj the convention center on the from of it). Mission Space is the first building they have built in a very long time that dares to look futuristic. We need more. Our visions if the future are more and more just or visions of today. Builind things that look to the future is expensive,its hard, and you have to redo it every 10 years, but no one does it better than Disney.

Epcot has been partially rescued from this dreary future by the changing of Universe of Energy to an entertainment piece instead of Exxon's propaganda about how ruining the earth in order to provide fuel was a wonderful thing.

I agree the infomercial that was UoE was not great loss, but I miss the Jetsons aspect of Epcot. There is no Future in Future World anymore. Its future was hopeful in my eye, not dreary.

The Contemporary is a concrete and plastic horror that falls into exactly the trap Tomorrowland falls into everytime they tried to make it forward looking.

Thats a mette of tast. I still think the Old Comntemp and the Old Tommorland were much more attractive than what they looked like after their makeovers.

Now it's backward looking in a retro way and it works better (except in California, where it's just a mess).

California? Huh? Are you referring to the California Grill?

Anyway, I'm straying from my real point, which is that perhaps Walt wasn't always right. If he was alive today he might take one look at the Poly and Contemporary and have them completely redone because they certainly run well behind the pack in the "pixie dust" "Immersion" "getting away from everything" "totally transported to someplace else" and WHATEVER you want to call it that the newer themed hotels succeed so well at, particularly the Animal Kingdom and Wilderness Lodges.

I love the Contemp, and it was very magical when it was built (you were staying in the Hotel of Tomorrow!), but I can concede its noit really magical any more (Very nice, but not magical) and that waly might look at doing something else with it at this point. I would miss it, but it might be the right thing to do.The Poly however is still very magical and immersive for many, many guest (just read the resort boards) and I think Walt would leave it alone.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

From the beginning. Although some have changed.

 

[hopemax]

Sometimes I wonder if people read what I post

The Grosvenor was originally the Dutch Inn
The Courtyard by Marriot was originally the Howard Johnson

The other original hotels were a Travelodge, and the Royal Inn, but I'm not sure what happened to those two.

All 4 were priced, in 1972, at the same rates as the Poly and the Contemporary, near as I can figure...$32, $38 or $46.

And here's the link to that rate card again
http://www.geocities.com/paperdisney/cat10.htm

 

[WDWHound]

Scoop,
I think you need to understand the original vision of Disney World to understand how all of these hotels got there. Remember, Walts original Plan was not called Disney World, it was called the Florida Project. The center peice of the Florida Project was EPCOT (the city, not the park that we eventually got). The Magic Kingdom was going to be the only park on the property. Walt had always envisioned other commercial partenerships as part of the Florida project. They were to be part of Epcot, part of an "industrial center" (this idea was never pursued) and other areas (I have a list somewhere if you want me to look it up). I think the Village was part of that. They located it as far from the MK as possible, but they wanted other companies involved. It also had the advantage of allowing Disney to collect money from these hotels without having to invest in the buildings.

Quick revenue, more rooms to boost attendance at the parks in the early years and a base on which to begin building the commercial partnerships EPCOT would require. Not a bad deal all around. Only now that the Florida Project is 100% recreational does this choice seem to make less sense.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Thanks WDWHound!!

I have only to add that it is the inclusion of these hotels that helped keep the Disney brand (Standard and Philosophy) pure and the caste system out of WDW!! They were the moderates and the economies!! And the monorail Resorts were the "Deluxe at an amazing VALUE", "Disney experience", simply oozing and dripping with SHOW!!

And I'm genuinely asking, no sarcasm at all, does that make sense?

 

[Mooobooks]

Landbaron, the difference between the Wilderness Lodge and the Caribbean Beach Resort is location location location (sorry to be irritating in repeating that again, but it really is the answer).
The most popular park by far is The Magic Kingdom. The Wilderness Lodge is five minutes away by boat. That's one of the reasons a lot of people stay there in addition to the unmatched ambience.
Regarding the comments about the Polynesian ... I know this is all subjective, but give me a break! I love to go there in the morning for Tonga Toast, but I certainly wouldn't pay their ridiculous rates to stay in what is essentially a motel with a central building--a ticky tacky motel, no less. If you took the monorail away I really can't imagine why anyone would stay there. What, exactly is the great allure? That it's one of the original hotels? That it has the monorail? That it has tacky wallpaper that looks like something out of a B movie from the 1960s? Why do people love it so? I think in some way (exactly as with the Contemporary) that in addition to the warm gush of nostalgia, there is some sort of brainwashing going on. Not, of course, that there isn't brainwashing going on throughout the entire place. Some things I happily submit to, others not at all. When I'm in the Wilderness Lodge I feel transported to another time and place. When I'm in the Polynesian Resort I feel stuck in a bad episode of The Twilight Zone.: tens of thousands of people spending obscene amounts of money for a motel room. How can it be?
To each his own--I am very pleased that so many like it and stay there. It just makes getting a room at the nice hotels that much easier!

 

[hopemax]

Oh, this is too good, and yeah I know I'm going way off track but, I noticed Scoop's non-enthusiasm for the HoJo's and while I was looking up, how the reputation of Howard Johnson has changed over the years, I came across this...

But I was going to say that people stayed at the HoJo's then for the same reason people eat at the McDonald's in WDW now over the Disney restaurants even though the price isn't that different. People crave familiarity.

And every time I turn around, I believe more and more the 2000's are just the 1970's repeated.

What caused the world's biggest restaurant chain to disintegrate over the past 40 years? One answer is the younger Howard Johnson, who became president at 26 in 1959 and stayed in charge until 1982. He acted more like an accountant than an entrepreneur. "Every time I saw Howard Johnson, he was always telling me how he was going to cut costs further," a restaurant executive said in 1985, when the chain was being sold by a British company that had bought it five years earlier.

The cost-cutting measure that turned my wife away from Howard Johnson's was HoJo Cola. After that dreadful beverage was introduced in 1964, customers couldn't order a Coke at Howard Johnson's. By the 1970s, prices at Howard Johnson's had been jacked up, and service had declined. In 1965 the company enjoyed an enormous lead over competing restaurants; it outsold McDonald's, Burger King and Kentucky Fried Chicken combined. At the end of the '70s it still had 867 orange-roof restaurants. But by then the chain had lost its leadership position as the company focused on motor lodges, frozen foods and penny-pinching.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mooobooks says:

Landbaron, the difference between the Wilderness Lodge and the Caribbean Beach Resort is location location location (sorry to be irritating in repeating that again, but it really is the answer). The most popular park by far is The Magic Kingdom.

I will grant you that as the crow flies the Wilderness Lodge is quite a bit closer to the Magic kingdom than Port Orleans! But that logic would dictate that the Boardwalk MUST charge lower prices than the Poly. Or, MY GOD(!), that stuck out on the outskirts, almost forgotten, AKL must be the lowest priced resort on the property!!

The Wilderness Lodge is five minutes away by boat.

Now, I certainly don’t want to turn this into a debate about the sorry state of Disney transportation, but are you talking about that same boat ride that I took almost every day for two week a year ago and also took several times this past July? It most certainly cannot be!! You HAVE to be talking about some other boat!! Because the one I stood in line for an average of twenty minutes took about twenty minutes to a half an hour to make the trip!!! Add that glorious transportation magic together and I come up with at least a half an hour and most times closer to an hour to reach my destination by that stinking boat!!!! And, my friend, the bus is worse!!! So, tell me about this five minute boat. I would LOVE to give it a try!!!

I’d answer the rest of your post, but as you say it is ALL subjective! It boils down to taste! It has nothing whatsoever to do with Standards. So I will PASS.

Hopemax!!!! I think I’m falling in love!! First the Poly prices from 1972!!! And now this!!! WOW!!!! What a woman!!!

 

[Planogirl]

{snarl...spit... }

There, now I'm not the least bit perturbed about some of the comments directed at my favorite Disney resort. Yes, the ticky-tacky Polynesian!!!

Oops. Now I'm truly OK.

As the Landbaron so astutely pointed out, these preferences are completely subjective. For example, I don't admire the Grand Floridian as much as many others do. You see, I saw the hotel that it was modeled after and it pales a lot by comparison IMO. But I do appreciate that others would love the place and I even understand why.

But never mind, back to the original question. I love Dixie Landings (still what I call it!) and the biggest difference I see between it and the Polynesian is the comfort level. The rooms at the deluxe are bigger as are the beds, the amenities are more varied, there are more restaurants, there is a beach... I could go on and on but I'll stop.

As for the interior versus exterior hallways there is also the matter of security which some people appreciate.

Now I'll go admire my pictures of the tacky resort I love so much while you all continue. (Now I'm only kidding! )

 

[hopemax]

Hopemax!!!! I think I’m falling in love!! First the Poly prices from 1972!!! And now this!!! WOW!!!! What a woman!!!

You may want to take that back because I'm not so sure where I stand in regards to your caste system. The parks had it's A-E tickets, and so I'm not sure if differently priced hotels would have been out of the question in Walt's mind. But, looking at the A and B level attractions at DL, like the Carousel, MS vehicles and the Treehouse, Casey Jr, Castle walk-thru I can't see where they skimped on TiggerFreak's polish or 'depth of theme' and I think the same would have held true for the resorts. We would never have had the conversations like we've had about the All-stars or Pop Century. The differences would have been along the lines of the dining options, indoor/outdoor room access, and some amenities like exercise rooms, spas (but I think these would have been included with the room rate and not a seperate fee, like they are now). And the prices wouldn't range as highly as they do now. If the Mirage, during the week of the largest electronics convention in the world in April 2003, maxes out at $299 for a non-suite, the Polynesian wouldn't be charging that during the value season for the cheapest room.

 

[Another Voice]

"I'm still amazed that a HoJo and Travelodge once existed on Disney property. Why was this done? Why would Disney allow these hotels on its property?"

It's very simple. The original Disney-owned hotels were supposed to be an extension of the theme parks, a way for the guests to "live in the magic" for a while. They were an extension of the show. The company understood that not everyone wanted that, nor could many people afford that. Remember that vacations in 1970 were very different than they were today. Most people traveled by car and considered Holiday Inn, Howard Johnson and other chains to be part of the family vacation experience. Disney invited those chains and others to build on Disney property exactly because they were known for providing good value to vacationers.

The current crop of Disney-owned motels have nothing to do with show or providing a quality experience. They are simply another way of draining more wallets of more money. Everyone at Disney in 1967 dreamed of building a south sea fantasy or a sleak future that only existed in comic books. But no one in 2001 yearned for the chance to staple a neon "Do The Funky Chicken" sign on a concrete box.

Yes, the Poly and the Contemporary may not have aged well for some, but at least they had a core of passion about them. Someone tried to do well and, in my opinion, they acheived it. No one will look back on the All Star Resorts in 2037 and be able to say that.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ah! How sad!

Tiss better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all!!

Well, Ms. Max! So we part ways. But it was fun while it lasted, eh?

You may want to take that back because I'm not so sure where I stand in regards to your caste system.

Maybe I can help you. I firmly believe it. So it comes from deep within. I am firmly convinced that Walt never even considered such a concept and that Disney should have NEVER started down that slippery slope. So, let’s see where this takes us. Perhaps we don’t have “irreconcilable differences” after all!!

The parks had it's A-E tickets, and so I'm not sure if differently priced hotels would have been out of the question in Walt's mind.

Fair enough. But we’re not talking about the difference between Dumbo and Pirates. We’re talking about Pirates and a dumbed down version of it for those who can’t or won’t pay for the “Disney” rendition. After all, you can have different caliber rides like you can have different caliber restaurants. Some are fast food. Some are elegant dining. Some rides have simple mechanisms and some have complicated ones. Some rides tell a BIG story, some tell a smaller one. And when Disney tackles them, they do it all Disney.

It isn’t the food they are serving or the story they are telling that guides the price. That’s incidental. That’s why Roy thought Walt was CRAZY for putting real crystal chandeliers in a fast food hamburger joint!! If the story calls for a mild spinner (i.e. Dumbo) that doesn’t preclude theming it to the max, and plussing it in every way possible. Or the fast food place having real oak floors and a marble countertop, if that’s what’s called for. And the ‘cost’ for the consumer had nothing to do with those extras. The hamburger didn’t cost extra in one place that called for elaborate theme, and less in the corner stand that happened to call for relatively cheap theme. NO!!

But a resort is more encompassing. Bigger. Almost on the level of a theme park itself. And there’s never been any talk that Disney should build a cheaper version of the MK and only charge $30.00 a day instead of $50.00 for those who couldn’t afford the “Magic”!! Of course not!! That’s just plain silly!! But that’s what we’re saying when we talk about the Resort Experience. And I’ll lay you 100 to 1 that most of us, had we been here in 1975, would have called Moderates “silly” if anyone would have been dumb enough to suggest it back then.

So let’s keep playing and see where this takes us. What would the “moderate” version of Pirates be like. Let’s see: A plain front facade, with no talking parrot. An unadorned walk way leading to the ride. No cannons, barrels or rooms to look in, that costs extra! On the ride itself forget the drop, too much money! And that first room with the ship firing on the fort... well... that’s got to go!!

Now, the rest of the ‘experience' is all Disney!! Except for some of the robots. Well, the guy with the hairy leg, he’s wearing long pants now, but no one will notice! And besides, isn’t it nice that instead of an “E” ticket, Disney has “given” us this version which is equivalent to a “C” ticket. But wait!! First we have to raise the ticket price of the “E” to... oh... let’s say... a “H” ticket. You know what that means, right? Now we have to raise all the other tickets accordingly. So the dumbed down version now costs slightly more than the old “E” ticket, but represents a “savings” when compared to the current “E” ticket!! Pretty slick, ain’t it? And we all get on the DIS and LaughingPlace and even MousePlanet and praise Disney for giving to those poor souls who’s income is modest a chance to experience the “Magic”. Not the same magic, mind you, but a poor copy of the original. But HEY!! This is America!! You get what you pay for! More money; More Magic!! It’s that simple!

Does that make a little sense now? I probably didn't explain it quite right so please feel free to ask questions!! Or maybe you won't have to and you're already in my camp on this one!! How about it? Like the old song - "falling in love again!"

 

[hopemax]

Well, mostly we agree

And I’ll lay you 100 to 1 that most of us, had we been here in 1975, would have called Moderates “silly” if anyone would have been dumb enough to suggest it back then.

It depends on how a moderate was described. Like YoHo, I prefer no hallways. And I prefer a food court to sit-down restaurants about 75% of the time. I like being able to dine in at my own pace, run in, grab something and take it back to the room, you know. Basically, I like the "motel" atmosphere, I'm not cut out for "hotels." And I would be kinda put off by having to pay the "hotel" rate if I'm at a "motel." To me, it would be like Disney building a themed-to-the-max animal park with about 15 attractions and charging the same price as the themed-to-the-max fantasy park with about 45 attractions. I would expect a lower price.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

To me, it would be like Disney building a themed-to-the-max animal park with about 15 attractions and charging the same price as the themed-to-the-max fantasy park with about 45 attractions. I would expect a lower price.

Don’t ya just love the way she slips this in!! Way to go Ms. Max!!!

So where does this leave us? And by ‘us’ I mean everyone who’s still reading. What about YoHo’s question? What is the difference between Moderates and Deluxes as Disney now defines them? Or if you prefer a slightly different question. What accounts for the price differences between ANY of the resorts? Which means we can also explore the differences between the Floridian and the Poly! Or CS and CBR. Or AKL and Wilderness Lodge. Any of them. Because the way Disney does it “feels” right (if you buy into the entire class system), but I have yet to hear tangible reasons. Anyone have any?

 

[SnackyStacky]

Tangible resort differences:

1.) room size
2.) private balconies
3.) the actual setup - while the deluxes are big, they are not NEARLY as spread out as the moderates and cheap, er....values
4.) Water...unless I'm mistaken, all of the deluxes and moderates are built on a body of water...the values offer only land views
5.) More restaurant choices as you work your way up the resort system
6.) No whirlpools at the value
7.) More leisure activities (biking, jogging trails....) as you work your way up
8.) Room service...none at values, limited at moderates. (not sure if this tangible....)
9.) Mini-bar at select deluxes
10.) (don't know if this is really a tangible difference) kids's programs

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Voice, that is an interesting take on it, but it seems opposite to Mr. Landbaron's caste system philosophy.

I don’t think so at all! In fact, it fit soooo neatly within my concept that, though I didn’t really look at it the way My Lord laid it out before, when I heard it, I immediately bought into it. It made a whole bunch of sense and explained the reason for the existence of Hotel Plaza and the particular area where it resides.

So, the logical Ted Koppel follow-up ? is this: What is your view of this caste system idea? I curiously await...

So do I...

As for the HoJo, Quality Inn, yada, yada stuff...I have yet to see any argument which begins to convince me that allowing those resorts to be built on Disney property is any worse that allowing the moderates to be built.

Ah! My dear Scoop! You haven’t been listening or I haven’t been talking loud enough!!!

Of course this is better. (turn up the volume)

WAY BETTER!!!

Scoop! Under what “brand” were these hotels booked. Under what company did these hotels serve the public. Disney “allowed” these, mundane, ordinary, mediocre and commonplace hotels to exist! But if you wanted that special, magical, pixie dust experience you chose a “Disney” resort. Don’t ya get it!?!?! The “Disney” standard was maintained. The Disney “experience” was the same. They didn’t portion out magic with a price tag. It was what it was. Disney was Disney and the others were... well... let’s face it... The others!! NOT Disney!! Why is that so hard to understand?

To then hear certain friend(s) of mine argue that Port Orleans misses a single beat from these (or heck even the Disney Inn or possibly the Contemp) really seems like subjective tasting at its highest form.

Of course they miss a beat, Scoop! THEY ARE NOT DISNEY!!! Don’t you get that? A Disney resort set certain standards!! And these standards were maintained throughout the property. Under the Disney brand!! If you want Disney you stayed at a Disney Resort. If not, hotel plaza id the place for you!! It was really that simple.

Disney DID NOT only allow only the Contemp, Poly, or FW in the original plans. It also provided options for other vacationers in the form of the Plaza hotels.

But not under the Disney name!! And that’s all the difference in the world!!

I'm taking the position that if it was acceptable for the Florida Project to include a Travelodge or Howard Johnson's then it is just as acceptable for the current Disney World to provide Coronado Spring, Caribbean Beach, Riverside and, yes, even the AllStars.
Then tell me what accounts for the price difference!

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! They would have to allow some other corporation to “OWN” them. They have chosen NOT do that. Instead, if you notice, they go out of their way to name them ”DISNEY’S” whatever resort. And yet they are not. Because they have not maintained the standard! Some are clearly more 'Disney" than others. Don’t you get that?

 

[Another Voice]

Lord Baron is right – Disney was offering a “resort experience” under its own brand name and the other hotels were offering “lodging” under their own brands. They were considered two very different businesses and Disney wanted to make sure its guests received the best value for their money. People wanting show could stay at in a company-owned resort, those families wanting just a place to stay could find good value with HoJo or Hilton.

My opinion on the caste system is that I really don’t care about the price of the room as long as it provides and interesting experience. Where Disney has really failed is in the area of innovation. They have had several good opportunities to create places as exciting for the 2000’s as the Poly and Contemporary were for the 1970’s. An even better challenge would have been to really see what Disney imagination could have done at the lower price point hotels. I think a resort that had people gasping at the value for the money would be very impressive (and I think Disney did a pretty good job at this with Dixie Landings).

In short, it’s not how much money Disney spent or charges – it’s what Disney creates with the money.

 

[d-r]

I think there will be water view rooms at pop century, from the photos, which surprises me.

The deluxes have central air, the moderates have a wall unit thing.

You can book a king bed room at a moderate, hope for it at a deluxe.

And finally, I always seem to have to post this whenever this argument comes along, so here it is:

Polly = Adventureland
Contemp. = Tomorrowland
Ft. Wilderness (and then Wil. Lodge) = Frontierland

and then later along comes
Grand Fla. = Main St. / Fantasyland (I never could quite figure this out)

The whole point is you get to extend your MK experience and stay right there around the lagoon - to me that is magical and wonderful.

DR

 

[airlarry!]

Lord Baron,

You know I usually agree with you here, but on this point our ops diverge, if I'm reading you right.

I liken the resort issue to restaurants. No matter if you are eating at the Crystal Palace or at the Pirate & the Parrot, the show should be of the same quality, even if the prices are different. All the way down to the food carts, everything must be done with show. I think that the restaurants at WDW pull this off. The 'fast food' ones don't feel like 'fast food.' I love the Pinnochio Haus, but the decor, and the size, and the windows onto it's a small world belie the fact that it is basically a hamburger joint.

Same applies to the resorts. There is nothing inherently wrong with having different prices for different resorts. People won't mind paying for additional amenities or a larger room.

What they will mind is if the resort does not provide the same level of...what do you always call it...escapism. It would be hard for someone to convince me that the Imagineers, if given the chance, could not have designed a themed get-a-way resort in the value price range. It wouldn't have to have a sitdown restaurant or monorail access. It just needs the right theme, a great pool, and 'magical' transportation (water taxis or themed busses instead).

 

[airlarry!]

I'm curious, Scoop, what previous regime caused the S/D? I thought it was He Who Must Not Be Named who partnered with his buddy M. Graves on the hotels there.