{Debate} Pro-Choice Catholics Told to Confess

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger
You call, the others wise. I call them cowards for not standing up for their faith and saying that the church teachings are unchangeable. The Catholic church should not care how popular it is. If the church stands for something, then the Cathoilic authority should back it up.

Aren't you glad you aren't a Catholic? Take care! Differences of opinions make the world go 'round!

 

[6_Time_Momma]

Originally posted by Bob Slydell
Where do I turn in my Catholic Church membership card? Apparently, from reading this thread, I'm not a perfect Catholic, thus I must leave the church, right?

I never said anyone HAD to leave the Church, only that I can't understand why anyone would WANT to stay in it instead of finding a denomination that is more serving to their beliefs.

We aren't talking about someone disagreeing with a minor thing like donating 9% instead of a 10% tithe that the church wants. I mean, abortion is a HUGE issue within the Church.

I also realize that issues like abortion and birth control are not CORE beliefs, ie Jesus the Son of God died on the cross for our sins, Mary is the Mother of God, Saints, baptism, etc. however there are other denominations that share these beliefs that are likely more lenient or accepting regarding the other issues that trouble people regarding the Church.

Heck, I never said I was the perfect Catholic either, only that I believe in the things that they profess and do my very best to practice in that way.

 

[6_Time_Momma]

- Communion should not be held out as a reward or punishment. That to me is sad. When I take communion it is truly a sacred time for me. I am not catholic, so it is only symbolic in my church, but yet it gives me time to REALLY reflect on what Jesus did for me. There should not be any strings attached to communion. And in the case of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, there HAS ALWAYS been strings attached to communion.

Because Communion is not just symbolic in the Catholic Church. We are actually taking the body of Jesus into our bodies. If we have sin on our sould, we are trying to take a pure and holy being into an unclean and impure body. That is why the Church denies communion to those who have unconfessed sin on their souls. It is not a "punishment" to be denied Communion, but rather a respect of the body of Christ.

 

[supergoof]

We are all sinners, Adam and Eve took care of that. Different denominations have different views on many things. My belief is in God, Son and Holy Ghost and the Holy Bible, the entire Bible, I think if a person has accepted that God sent his Son Jesus to live among men, and die on the cross for our sins and to be resurected, that person will be reunited with The Lord in Heaven.
That's simple. That's what I believe, people can argue all day, it boils down to what each of us has faith enough to believe. I will vote guided by my beliefs. Everyone else has the right to do the same. This debate will rage on until the end of time. If I meet someone with a very different view concerning the afterlife, I just tell them what I just said and add that one of us will be very disapointed when we die and the other will be very glad.

Just my 2 cents. Have a great day!

 

[wvrevy]

Last time I checked, we were electing a president, not a pope. Should the catholic church not also state that you should never vote for a candidate that wasn't catholic ?

This is why religion has no business intruding in politics....It's likely to result in an overload of hypocrisy for one topic and cause all of reality to disappear

 

[Tiggeroo]

There is a reason the Catholic church takes such a strong stand on abortion. There are alot of issues that might be against Catholic teachings. But you have to understand that to somebody against abortion this is a real baby. The mother is choosing to kill her own child so that she can have an easier life. To anti-abortion people it's the same as if a law was passed allowing people to kill children under 2yrs old. Most people would risk everything to prevent that from happening. They would certainly say something to anybody who would vote for a candidate who was for such a law.
Therefore in this Bishop's eyes Kerry is promoting the murder of innocents. And he is doing it quite publicly.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Last time I checked, we were electing a president, not a pope. Should the catholic church not also state that you should never vote for a candidate that wasn't catholic ?

This is why religion has no business intruding in politics....It's likely to result in an overload of hypocrisy for one topic and cause all of reality to disappear

Your aren't Catholic, right, so it doesn't even affect you so then why does it bother so??

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by Tiggeroo
Therefore in this Bishop's eyes Kerry is promoting the murder of innocents. And he is doing it quite publicly.

The Bishop would be wrong, IMO, but that gets back into an argument about the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion and I think this board's seen too many of those debates.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by Bob Slydell
The Bishop would be wrong, IMO, but that gets back into an argument about the difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion and I think this board's seen too many of those debates.

In the eyes of the Catholic Church, which is what we are discussing, it's not up for a debate. Pro-choice and pro-abortion are one in the same and there is NO difference.

The Bishops are just reminding everyone of Church doctrine. A politician that is pro-choice/pro-abortion should not receive Communion. If you do anything to promote abortion, you should not receive Communion.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
The Bishops are just reminding everyone of Church doctrine. A politician that is pro-choice/pro-abortion should not receive Communion. If you do anything to promote abortion, you should not receive Communion.

Which brings me back to my initial confusion. I neither do anything to promote abortion nor do I actively seek out candidates to vote for that are pro-choice. If asked, I will say I am pro-choice. At what point have I sinned? When asked the question, when voting for a pro-choice candidate or when I initially formed the opinion of being pro-choice?

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Your aren't Catholic, right, so it doesn't even affect you so then why does it bother so??

That very question has been crossing my mind. So many of these debates seem to be a whole lot of Protestants all worked up about the Catholic Church! What's that about?

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by auntpolly
That very question has been crossing my mind. So many of these debates seem to be a whole lot of Protestants all worked up about the Catholic Church! What's that about?

I've hardly seena word here that has been Catholic bashing. Actually, no one has said a word that is critical of the Catholic church in general. Rather, is is the behavior of bishops and priests that we are talking about. The only bashing I've done is to say that the bishops aren't supporting their Catholic faith enough.

Is that Catholic bashing the way we're used to on debates?
No, not at all. Typically, we bash Catholics for being backwards, pagan, etc. Not a single shred of that has happened on this thread.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Last time I checked, we were electing a president, not a pope. Should the catholic church not also state that you should never vote for a candidate that wasn't catholic ?

This is why religion has no business intruding in politics....It's likely to result in an overload of hypocrisy for one topic and cause all of reality to disappear

Yes, the church shouldn't be intrusive on politics. But it is the pro-choice politician that has put the Catholic church in this position. Some may want to blame the bishop for making a fuss, but all he is doing, IMO, is backing up church doctrine. Nothing more, nothing less. That the church is not more forcefully backing up this bishop in St Louis bothers me. It sounds as if they don't want to push to hard behind him for fear of alienating the public.

Of course, I was always taught that your faith is your faith. Pronounce it proiudly, evenm in the face of those who would criticize you. That's what this bishop is doing and the church is hanging this guy out to dry by not backing him up.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Your aren't Catholic, right, so it doesn't even affect you so then why does it bother so??

One not need be involved or intimately attached to have an opinion.

All I'm espousing is that people of faith, no matter what it is, follow their faith. If your faith has rules, you should proudly state them and follow them. Not doing so is a betrayal of your faith and your spiritual fellows.

Though this issue surrounds the Catholic church, I'm apoproaching it from a "follow your faith truthfully" point of view. What I've said here applies to all religions, not just Catholics.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Because Communion is not just symbolic in the Catholic Church. We are actually taking the body of Jesus into our bodies. If we have sin on our sould, we are trying to take a pure and holy being into an unclean and impure body. That is why the Church denies communion to those who have unconfessed sin on their souls. It is not a "punishment" to be denied Communion, but rather a respect of the body of Christ.

I used to be Catholic, I understand, but I don't agree, which is one of the many reasons why I am no longer Catholic. I can recognize that if I don't agree with the prinicples I shouldn't be a part of that religion, rather than saying the church is wrong.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Bob Slydell
Which brings me back to my initial confusion. I neither do anything to promote abortion nor do I actively seek out candidates to vote for that are pro-choice. If asked, I will say I am pro-choice. At what point have I sinned? When asked the question, when voting for a pro-choice candidate or when I initially formed the opinion of being pro-choice?

If the Catholic church considers the pro-choice stance, no matter what the reason, sinful. Then you have sinned. If knowing that an election is near, and you vote for someone who is pro-choice, even though you don't know it, you are still guilty of sin. Ignorance of what a politician stands for is not an excuse.
If not taking a stand in any way is considered acceptance of the what exists that day, and that day abortion is legal, and you do not take a stand against it, then you have sinned.

I'm not Catholic so my knowledge is not complete here. I'm making suppositions here. If any of these suppositions is incorrect, feel free to correct them. But from my current limited understanding, I think this is how it goes.

 

[Blue Skies]

From WVRevy

Last time I checked, we were electing a president, not a pope. Should the catholic church not also state that you should never vote for a candidate that wasn't catholic ?

This is why religion has no business intruding in politics....It's likely to result in an overload of hypocrisy for one topic and cause all of reality to disappear

I like what Bill Donohue from the Catholic League said:

“There is nothing inconsistent about a person of faith, in an elected position, voting on a public issue in a way that conforms to the teachings of his religion. In fact, Catholics like John Kerry, Protestants like Hillary Clinton and Jews like Joseph Lieberman do so all the time: all of them vote to prohibit murder, theft and rape. Just because Christians and Jews believe something is sinful doesn’t necessarily mean they shouldn’t also declare it to be illegal. After all, no one is proposing that we make all Americans abstain from eating meat during Lent on Fridays, or prohibit the eating of pork. The issue is whether the law should protect the unborn. That’s not a religious issue, it’s a matter of Biology 101.”


Catholic politicians - and voters - cannot separate their faith from their daily lives. I find it humorous (and sad) that society expects Catholics to leave their faith at home - but be accepting of other's faith - faith that includes unrestricted right to abortion in demand, homosexual marriage, fornication, birth control, et al.

What about diversity?? Why can't I as a Catholic, participate in politics? Why can't the Catholic Church help to form the consciences of their members? (including politicians and voters).


Melissa

 

[Blue Skies]

From AuntPolly:

treesinger and blueskies -- so you are in favor of the death penalty? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding -- let me know). If you are, aren't you doing just what I'm doing and choosing the person's views you like to defend? I read what blueskies posted and I think, "But the Pope says differently". And according to what Kristy posted the church is pretty much finding capital punishment increasingly indefensible.

No – I’m not in favor of the death penalty. My point was that it is not on the same level as abortion. I believe there are rare instances when it is necessary. Key word there is “rare”; and this follows Church teaching on this issue.

This debate reminds me of the voter scorecard Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois put together. I find the mental gymnastics some do to equate other issues with the gravity of abortion. Durbin included in his 24 point “scorecard” such moral dilemmas as:

North Korean Asylum Seekers
Mercury Exposure Reduction
Media Ownership
State Medicaid Relief

Now – some of his points are valid – but to equate the murder of 40 million babies to mercury exposure is a little... odd.


Melissa

 

[ahutton]

Maybe this is off the point, but as a Catholic, if you sin, and you go to confession, aren't you supposed to make an effort not to commit that sin again? The point of confessing sins isn't so everything is "okay", it is to acknowledge something you recognize as wrong and to promise not to do it again. That said, so if you support Kerry, are you supposed to go to confession every week? What sense does that make, as you are supporting a belief they say is wrong, and you intend to continue to do so? Isn't that just making a false confession, which means the sin wouldn't be forgiven? My own beliefs and feelings aside, that doesn't make any sense to me.