DEBATE: is health care a right or a privilege?

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Bojangles
where did I mention someone with a medical problem taking enormous amounts of leave time? If you don't have insurance, find a job that will provide it. I have yet to hear of anyone being turned down at BK or Walmart.

The BK & Wal Mart near me are not hiring. I checked, because I am looking for a second job. My friend was turned down from BK once because they said he was "overqualified".

It must be nice having tons and tons of well paying, benefits offering jobs open to everyone where you live! Can I come live there? I have 2 college degrees in psychology and sociology and I work in an office making under 30K a year. Thank god I have health insurance here because otherwise my ulcers and various stomach ailments which cause me IMMENSE pain would probably have to go untreated.

 

[Bojangles]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
I don't know many people who can live off of their salary from Wal Mart or BK either.

Obviously some people can or else there would be no one working there. If you go to the BK website, you will see medical/dental insurance listed as one of the ir benefits.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by Bojangles
I believe she showed up with a bunch of credit card numbers belonging to wealthy family members.

Do we have a hair-splitting smilie? Checkbook, credit cards, Hospitals R Us gift certificates, what difference does it make?

If you don't have insurance, there are options. Find a free clinic or program that will cover you. Or get a job somewhere that offers insurance. Like Burger King or Walmart.

Her lack of insurance and the common sense or lack thereof involved in that situation does not excuse the unacceptable care Nikki received.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Bojangles
Obviously some people can or else there would be no one working there. If you go to the BK website, you will see medical/dental insurance listed as one of the ir benefits.

The BK near me employs mostly people working there part time as additional income and high school and college students living with their parents.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by C.Ann
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Very easy for folks who have never had to "walk the walk" or wade into all of these wonderful programs that are supposedly available..

Not too wise to assume "folks" have never been there, done that. I, for one, have been without health insurance a couple of times in the past. I've also had the pleasure of wading into both Medicare and VA programs while caring for my late father. Dealing with his Medicare coverage convinced me that national/socialized healthcare is bad, bad, bad. And even as great as the treatment was at the VA facility he was at, dealing with the bills/insurance/co-pays/deductibles has continued to be a nightmare (especially coordinating that with Medicare).

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by Deb in IA
OK, Mhopkins.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't know that the mom having a checkbook (instead of insurance, I guess is what you mean) was the cause of the misdiagnosis.

Perhaps, just perhaps, even with insurance, Nikki would still have gotten the same diagnosis.

You know, we doctors are good, but we are not infallible. Doctors in emergency rooms in particular, have as their primary focus TO KEEP PATIENTS ALIVE. They are not primary care. They have never seen most of their patients before, and will probably never see them again. To expect that they will be perfect every time is unrealistic.

News flash, people. Doctors do the best they can. They are not ALWAYS right. Sometimes, we take our best guess, and sometimes we are right, and sometimes not. Sometimes you have to continue the dialog with your health care provider, instead of expecting a one-shot deal.

That is why follow-up is so important, which sounds like Nikki did and I'm glad she's getting better.

I understand what you're saying, sort of like Monday morning quarterbacking. I guess it's possible that Doc #2 is just more thorough than Doc #1, no matter the payment options. But the circumstances certainly point, in my eyes at least, to poor care based on $$$.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
I understand what you're saying, sort of like Monday morning quarterbacking. I guess it's possible that Doc #2 is just more thorough than Doc #1, no matter the payment options. But the circumstances certainly point, in my eyes at least, to poor care based on $$$.

I understand ... $$$ always guarantees 100% accurate, perfect healthcare.

IRL, that doesn't happen. Other options could be that Doc #1 was not thorough, not properly trained, not experienced enough, too tired, too lazy, overworked, etc.

I just don't believe that $$ is the magic ticket to perfect healthcare.

 

[Deb in IA]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I understand ... $$$ always guarantees 100% accurate, perfect healthcare.

IRL, that doesn't happen. Other options could be that Doc #1 was not thorough, not properly trained, not experienced enough, too tired, too lazy, overworked, etc.

I just don't believe that $$ is the magic ticket to perfect healthcare.

Thank you Eeyore1954.

"Cause" and "effect" are very difficult to prove.

 

[Bojangles]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
I have 2 college degrees in psychology and sociology and I work in an office making under 30K a year.

Off topic, but have you considered grad school? I would be surprised if you found a job in either field without a more advanced degree.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Bojangles
Off topic, but have you considered grad school? I would be surprised if you found a job in either field without a more advanced degree.

I have. Unfortunately that takes money which I do not have.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Not too wise to assume "folks" have never been there, done that. I, for one, have been without health insurance a couple of times in the past. I've also had the pleasure of wading into both Medicare and VA programs while caring for my late father. Dealing with his Medicare coverage convinced me that national/socialized healthcare is bad, bad, bad. And even as great as the treatment was at the VA facility he was at, dealing with the bills/insurance/co-pays/deductibles has continued to be a nightmare (especially coordinating that with Medicare).

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So through that experience you have determined that Medicare is "bad, bad, bad" - yet people assume because this program is in place it's the "answer" for some people who don't have health insurance? Medicare alone is not worth the paper that it's touted on.. Add in the VA and their ridiculous financial guidelines and it would be easier to just lay down and die..

If anything, you have proven my point.. Very, very few people actually KNOW what is entailed in any of these "programs" and what the qualifications are.. They just assume if it's touted as a "program" for people who don't have any other health care it's affordable and adequate.. Nothing could be further from the truth..

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I understand ... $$$ always guarantees 100% accurate, perfect healthcare.

IRL, that doesn't happen. Other options could be that Doc #1 was not thorough, not properly trained, not experienced enough, too tired, too lazy, overworked, etc.

I just don't believe that $$ is the magic ticket to perfect healthcare.

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Didn't the doctor in question - doctor #1 - specifically state that he was not doing diagnostic tests so as not to "run up a big bill"?
In that particular case, I don't think there is any question as to whether or not the lack of proper treatment was motivated by $$.

 

[KarenC]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
How soon we forget history. Price and wage controls have been tried in the past to one degree or another (remember the Nixon years -- maybe not). They don't work and limiting the profit a company can make is contrary to our free enterprise system.

I think there's a significant difference between Nixon's wage and price controls and putting constraints in place to provide US taxpayers with a return on their investment into drug research.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by cardaway
Why? I see too much risk of variability from state to state.

Because the Fed Govt has not Constitutional authority to implement such a program. The states do.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by Deb in IA
ABSOL-FRIPPIN-LUTELY.

We are a STATE HOSPITAL and provide several MILLION dollars in uncompensated FREE care every year.

Well, TNSTAAFL. Someone is paying for it, somehow, someway. Most likely those that aren't getting a return on their money.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

So through that experience you have determined that Medicare is "bad, bad, bad" - yet people assume because this program is in place it's the "answer" for some people who don't have health insurance?

Medicaid is the program for people who cannot afford health insurance. It is an entirely different program from Medicare.

And it also is not a perfect program. Many doctors will no longer accept Medicaid patients because some states are extremely slow in payment reimbursements and they pay nowhere near what it costs the doctor and facility to provide the service.

The most likely answer to fix that problem though is to increase taxes to the point where Medicaid is funded to the point that it is able to pay for healthcare for all patients that need it. Raising taxes is never a popular idea in this country.

And although it makes some people angry, a significant portion of uninsured patients are uninsured because they choose to put their money in other places. I guess that increased taxes would force them to indirectly agree to pay for healthcare, but it would not be a popular idea.

 

[betz]

IRL most fast food and retail jobs hire part time and rarely offer medical benefits to PTers. They schedule people for less than the required 40 hours per week to avoid paying benefits. The one or two people that work FT at places like BK may be able to live off their salaries if they are in a dual income situation. Otherwise you are paid minimum wage and get 5 or 10 cent raises for doing things like opening the facility or other responsibilities. Once you are a FT worker you are considered management, thus you receive your salary and no overtime pay, but hey you get bennies. And with what you have left over after payday you can contribute your extra 2 cents to your 401k plan and they will match up to 6% of your contribution.
Businesses and corporations are out there to make money. They lay off people a few short years before they are eligible for retirement. In their place they hire contract workers with no bennies, out source their jobs; sometimes overseas; eliminate positions; doubling up workers loads; or rehire new employees with fewer bennies and lower wages.
It is easy to say you would never go without insurance, but sometimes it is impossible to pay the $600, $700 or more a month in premiums, no matter how well you think you planned. Things happen that the best of planners are unprepared for. Try purchasing coverage for pre-existing conditions, it is next to impossible. I know of people that have medical coverage and think twice about what type of maladies they admit to having for fear it will always be held against them on their medical records.

 

[mep319]

Welfare caseworker here and Medicad is federally funded. Children's (under 21), parents & disabled/elderly medical assistance is federally funded and mandated. They also contract services out. For instance in PA there is no medicare per se, unless they are for retroactive services. The services are provided by insurance companies...Keystone Mercy (BC/BS), US Healthcare etc... And most folks regardless of income are eligible...we call it a patient pay liabilitly. You take the income limit of the category of assistance you are eligible for and subtract that from your actual income after deductions....for instance.

NO insurance...admitted to the hospital and your bill is $20,000.00
You income is determined to be $3500.00 a month. The income limit for your category of medical assitance is $1500.00. 3500-1500=$2000.00. You pay $2000.00 the state/federal government picks up the other $18000.00. And frequently the hospital and medical folks will write off the other $2000.00 after the $18000.00 is paid. AND traditional medicaid actually pays more than most insurance companies pay.

If you know how to play the game almost anyone can qualify for government funded medical!

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Ouch! (I am feeling my age today.)

Hey, your only 4 years older than me! So don't feel so old.

Yet.

Can you clarify this for me?

If my tax dollars are being spent to help medical research (specifically pharmacutical), I don't think think I should pay that amount (however small) again when I buy the drug.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by C.Ann
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Didn't the doctor in question - doctor #1 - specifically state that he was not doing diagnostic tests so as not to "run up a big bill"?
In that particular case, I don't think there is any question as to whether or not the lack of proper treatment was motivated by $$.

Some hospitals will refuse to "run up a big bill" if the patient has no insurance and offers no proof they will be able to pay. I don't know of too many businesses that willingly give away their goods and services and hope to remain solvent for very long.

Diagnostic tests, medical treatment, etc. is not cheap. If the best you can offer is "give me a payment plan and I'll try to stick to it", I would be quite hesitant to run up a big bill on you, too.