DEBATE: Has WDW been built haphazardly, too quick and without proper infrastructure?

[betterlatethannever]

Originally posted by OnWithTheShow


As for sewage and stuff, I have often seen maintenance being done in that area and I know storm run-off and drainage are always being worked on and improved. WDW is a world leader in water conservation techniques which I can post more about if anyone is interested.

Yes, I am very interested. I have heard that there are behind the scenes tours of these facilities. I haven't seen any information in guidebooks, websites, etc. Are the tours just for groups associated with conventions?

Ed

 

[DisneyKidds]

OK, time for some catching up.

If people used the busses, there would be far less congestion. It's not the busses causing the jam-ups, it's all the rental cars.

I really have to ask, what jam-ups . I have to say, we always have a car and we drive everywhere. Morning, noon, midnight – you name the hour and I have driven the roads. I have never been in what I would call “traffic” or a “jam-up”. Ok, I take that back. Right after the close of the MK you might actually get “stuck” in a couple of minutes of “traffic” out where a few of the roads intersect with I-4, but that isn’t what we are talking about. The one area that many talk about being most notorious is over by DTD and the Hotel Plaza Blvd intersection. Maybe others have had different experiences, but in my experience it is not bad over there. I have never been in a big back up. Sure, maybe you get stopped at a light and there are 6 to 10 cars in front of you, but traffic? I wouldn’t call that traffic. You get thru when the light turns green, or (gasp) you wait a minute and a half for the next one. It has gotten even better since they re-did the intersection over there. Where are the miles long jam-ups? Where are people getting stuck in a 5 minute back up, much less a longer one?

And when your trying to get to your room at the All-Stars, from your 8pm priority seating at 1900 Park Fair, and the buses stopped running from the MK at 8PM because the park closed at 7PM, and your facing a ride to DD, perhaps it's better to just hop in that rental car.

Hope has hit on the one true inadequacy in the WDW transportation system, IMHO. Resort to resort transportation sucks. Disney should have done something to allow guests to move between resorts without having to make multiple connections that can take an hour plus. Other than that, while we don’t use it, the bus system seems to be designed well. Earlier someone commented on how the fact that Disney says you should allow an hour to go three miles is a clear example of how bad the system is. In a way it might be, because there are some routes where that may be the case – see Hope’s example above. However, to use that example as being indicative of the entire system is unfair. To go those three miles, most trips will last no more than 20 minutes. Furthermore, once you hit the road there will be no delays that add time to the trip. The majority of those 20 minutes will be making stops. If you happen to just miss a bus your trip could be a little longer. Yes, there will be exceptions, but the system as designed isn’t terrible, at least not for resort to park movement.

But really, what should the effect be? Is it only to get somebody from A to B?

Yes, Matt – I know where you are going. The journey should be just as Magical as the destination. I’m sure we’ll get deep into that discussion before too long .

Exactly. If the mass transit isn't adequate enough to convince enough people to skip the rental car, it would seem the mass transit system is not effective.

I’m not so sure this is a completely true statement. No matter how great the WDW transportation system is or becomes, there is always going to be a large contingent of people who want to have their own wheels. WDW transportation isn’t going to get you to IOA for the day. WDW transportation isn’t going to get you to Goodings or Publix for groceries. WDW transportation isn’t going to get you to the hospital or clinic should you become ill. There are lots of reasons, other than the inexcusable amount of time it can take to go resort to resort, that people rent cars that cannot be “fixed”. There are some people who don’t want to be bothered driving on vacation. A 20 minute trip from your resort to the AK or MGM is very reasonable. However, if someone can do it in 10 minutes in their car, damn-nab bit they are going to do it.

And the busses to me are a symptom of a bigger problem than giving up on magical transportation like the monorail.

Not to fear, I’m sure this topic will consume this discussion in fairly short order, but let’s look at a couple other things first.

Look at a map of the property. Did they really take transportation planning into account when locating the various elements? I may be showing my ignorance here, but it doesn't seem so to me. Many of the elements seem haphazardly located. Why is Animal Kingdom so remote, or why is Blizzard Beach so isolated? Better planning could have located the elements so you didn't have to spend a gazillion dollars connecting them.

I honestly believe there is a reason that Walt procured all the land he did. Yes, he wanted to assure that WDW would never be subject to urban attack with unattractive development just outside the berm. However, did he need to purchase all the land he did to achieve that goal? I don’t believe so. On the contrary, all that land was purchased to provide room to expand. One can hardly fault Disney for doing that. As for aligning venues better, there is only so much you can do in a given area before you have to move out. Furthermore, I don’t find BB all that isolated. It is less than a mile down the road from MGM, it is right across the street from Coronado Springs, and it is probably no more than a quarter mile from the All Stars. Likewise AK and the AKL. First off, AK needed huge tracts of land and probably couldn’t be placed in proximity to most other venues. Also, the combination of AK and AKL will serve to help develop that corner of the property so that it isn’t viewed as “remote” in the future. I’m sure they paid a lot of people a lot of money to determine land use plans and where new venues would best be located, and I’m sure this was done with an eye on the long term.

Theme Park infrastructure

Yes, it was mentioned earlier, and is an interesting topic. I guess it is one of the things we spend most of our time talking about around here, although we never really think of it in terms of infrastructure. But it is, and I’ll have to give that angle some thought.

For if the infrastructure of magic was properly (ima)engineered to anticipate the larger crowds in the World, there would have been enough new magical spots created along the way to keep demand for any current spots under control. I see little of this happening.

But there are lots of other Magical spots, spots that didn’t exist in 1972. However, that doesn’t keep people from learning about and going to the old ones. Is someone going to say “Hey, I heard about this cool spot to watch the fireworks over at the CR, but that last spot we happened upon and visited was so Magical that I’ll leave that CR thing to other people”? I don’t think so.

But as usual Mr. Matt and the wonderful Hopemax certainly have hit the mark.

Baron, I hope you have more than the mark Hope and Matt have hit. They make good points, but what are they? 1) Resort to Resort transportation stinks, and 2) WDW should have designed more magical transportation. I have to say, the fact that WDW transportation is not more magical does not, in and of itself, make the existing transportation infrastructure inadequate. Furthermore, if resort to resort is the only knock, can we claim the entire system is kaput? I know you have more to say on the subject.

 

[Cricket2]

And when your trying to get to your room at the All-Stars, from your 8pm priority seating at 1900 Park Fair, and the buses stopped running from the MK at 8PM because the park closed at 7PM, and your facing a ride to DD, perhaps it's better to just hop in that rental car.

It’s not that you don’t have options, you just are not willing to utilize those options, and by doing so, become part of the problem. If you choose to make a late PS at 1900PF, you (hopefully) know ahead of time that your transportation options are cut drastically. Where else on earth are you given more transportation options than WDW? Take a trip to Vegas and tell me how their complimentary bus system operates. Disney is at least providing you an option.

Though the difficulty in getting from resort to resort is inexcuseable. I would be embarassed to tell a guest that they should call a cab rather than take Disney transportation, yet this is what you are told because its true. If nothing else, this needs to be corrected.

What’s so difficult or inexcusable about it? The length of time it takes to get from point a-b? Why would you be embarrassed? This is free, world-class transportation as is like it or not.

BTW Mr. J. Cricket - even the WDW bus drivers will tell you there are too many Disney buses on the roadways. I have had many conversations with them while riding and most of them feel the current transportation system is lacking.

Whenever I want a cake, I call a plumber. Since plumbers may eat cake, they MUST be experts in their construction.
Not.
Nothing against the hard working drivers, but logistical engineers they are not.

Exactly. If the mass transit isn't adequate enough to convince enough people to skip the rental car, it would seem the mass transit system is not effective.

It’s the perception of inadequacy that causes confusion. True inadequacy would be a whole other issue. It IS adequate, guests just want more, faster.

However, as a tourist there, I can say that I don't believe that the roadways are very efficient. At all.

Why? What about them is not efficient?

The only way you know where you're going is the signage. They've done a very good job with the signs. I've never gotten lost. BUT, I have found myself drifting lanes because I'm paying more attention to signs than to the road. There's no driving directions to get to the parks. Whenever I'd ask, they'd tell me to just follow the signs. I've never had an accident because I go in the off-season, but during peak season, I'd have to imagine it's nuts!

I took a 2-hour survey with a presentation about WDW road signs (at EPCOT). This was the kind of survey that you could give your thoughts on and not those that you pick from poor choices a-d. I had to give them very high marks for the signs. Some of the questions were aimed about concentration on either street “names” or resort “areas”. It was an overwhelming sway to the “area” style of signage rather than the street names due to exactly what you are stating. They knew that people would read the signs for too long and slap into the car in front of them. They designed the length and content to reduce this to a minimum (notice they didn’t say remove it altogether? That always made me chuckle ). The signs at WDW are not only intuitive, but painstakingly placed so as to give maximum viewing area and minimal reading time. I can't say they all are like that, but the vast majority are.

And why am I using my car in the first place? Because I can park hop (meaning leave the gates at Park A and be inside Park B) in about 20 minutes. Whereas with Disney transportation, it takes at LEAST 45 minutes. The only exception is the Magic Kingdom because of the ferry or monorail to and from the TTC. But if you go from one park to the next, they take you to the TTC, right?

Catch 22. It takes the busses longer to navigate a-b because of all the other cars. The longer the busses take, the more cars show up, on and on and on…

I think there is another alternative to your TTC situation here, but you don’t want to hear it, it involves ^gasp a bus

Besides only doing replacements, there are outright closures with NO replacement. Less attractions for more people... Eventually this will bite you on the rump. Maybe "eventually" is now?

I love it when you speak the gospel Matt Tell me more, tell me more about the rump biting

perhaps an upgraded monorail more like an automated city train with shorter stops.

Are you saying this is better than busses??? If so, how?

The transportation system was bound to take a few shots. I disagree that it is inadequate. We live in the age of instant gratification and a WDW trip seems to bring out that kamikaze mentality within alot of guests. Any downtime in waiting for a bus or boat disrupts their routine and heightens the stress level - which ultimately leads to complaining. If there really was the relax and enjoy attitude, taking a 20 minute ride to get somewhere wouldn't be an issue. Afterall this was supposed to be a vacation

Clap…clap…clap! Never a truer word has been spoken. This is one of the first and most important bits I give to new visitors that ask me for advice.

JC

 

[raidermatt]

I really have to ask, what jam-ups

We stick with the busses/boats/monorails, and we try to avoid peak times. For instance, when Fantasmic ends, we don't head for the exit, we stroll down the boulevards for a bit, or check out the shops. However, the one time we did try to go straight to DD after Fantasmic, we waited in a very long line for a bus, then the trip took about 45 minutes. Again, the cause of this is closing the park with an event, but that's Disney's choice, and if they are going to do this, they really should be able to handle it. After all, even if you forget the concept of guest satisfaction, we aren't spending any money at DD if we are sitting on a bus.

Otherwise, during non-peak times, we haven't seen much in the way of traffic jams. Of course, this may depend on your definition of a traffic jam.

Hope has hit on the one true inadequacy in the WDW transportation system, IMHO. Resort to resort transportation sucks.

Its not the ONE true inadequacy, but it is an inadequacy.

I’m not so sure this is a completely true statement. No matter how great the WDW transportation system is or becomes, there is always going to be a large contingent of people who want to have their own wheels.

True, but currently, there is also a large contingent that drive because they just don't like WDW's transportation

 

[raidermatt]

It’s not that you don’t have options, you just are not willing to utilize those options, and by doing so, become part of the problem.

It’s the perception of inadequacy that causes confusion. True inadequacy would be a whole other issue. It IS adequate, guests just want more, faster.

I think there is another alternative to your TTC situation here, but you don’t want to hear it, it involves gasp a bus

Any downtime in waiting for a bus or boat disrupts their routine and heightens the stress level - which ultimately leads to complaining. If there really was the relax and enjoy attitude, taking a 20 minute ride to get somewhere wouldn't be an issue.

Rather than include these quotes in my last post, I decided to put them in a separate post because they all pertain to one central issue. Further, this issue may actually be central to many of the differences we find in our opinions regarding WDW and Disney in general.

I think there are more quotes I could pull just from this thread, but the above should be enough...

What do all of these quotes have in common?

They actually blame the customer for the problem.

Forget Walt's philosophy for a minute...let's just talk about good customer service and customer relations. If your offerings are perceived by your customers as inadequate, it does not matter if YOU think they are adequate. Customer perception is the same as reality. Therefore your offerings ARE inadequate.

End of story.

Any company that is strong in customer service will be able to explain this concept, and further, they realize they must act on it, not complain about the customers and their "warped expectations".

Further, we are talking about the Walt Disney Company...a company that is supposed to be a WORLD CLASS customer service organization.

Does anybody really think that any of the above quotes belong in any conversation Disney has about their offerings?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Its not the ONE true inadequacy, but it is an inadequacy.

Sorry, IMHO it is the ONE true inadequacy .

True, but currently, there is also a large contingent that drive because they just don't like WDW's transportation

True, but I believe there was an "if you build it, they will come" implication there, and that may be true for some, but not all. I'd venture a guess that a lot of peole would continue to drive, even if some of the kinks were worked out of the WDW public transportation system.

As for jam-ups, I believe JC was referring to traffic jam-ups, not people jam-ups at the bus stations. I have seen some of those lines . Not sure I'd call them a true inadequacy, but maybe a drawback .

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
As for jam-ups, I believe JC was referring to traffic jam-ups, not people jam-ups at the bus stations.

Correct!

The people jam-ups are a Pavlovian effect of people, not an inadequacy of infrastructure. Why people stand in lines for a bus is beyond me, especially when you are aware ahead of time there is going to be a line.

JC

 

[DisneyKidds]

Forget Walt's philosophy for a minute...let's just talk about good customer service and customer relations. If your offerings are perceived by your customers as inadequate, it does not matter if YOU think they are adequate. Customer perception is the same as reality. Therefore your offerings ARE inadequate.

Matt, I honestly believe there are limits to how far you can take this thinking, even for a world class organization like Disney. You may say that is un-Walt-like, but face it - there are things Walt would have liked to have done that he didn't because he even realized there were limits to what could be done. I'm not saying that Disney should look to limit themselves as an easy excuse(which they may have done with a few issues over the years), but they have to be realistic, even though realistic for Disney should be beyond what most other companies would do.

 

[hopemax]

It’s not that you don’t have options, you just are not willing to utilize those options, and by doing so, become part of the problem. If you choose to make a late PS at 1900PF, you (hopefully) know ahead of time that your transportation options are cut drastically.

You're shifting the debate.

The question was, "Why do people use rental cars?" Or for that matter, "Why do people not use Disney transportation?"

What is your answer to the question?

Of course it might be interesting to see what happens if guests did stop taking advantage of late night offerings like dining and entertainment because they choose not to drive and become part of the "problem." Wonder how fast Disney's transporation system would change once that revenue stream declined.

 

[raidermatt]

True, but I believe there was an "if you build it, they will come" implication there, and that may be true for some, but not all.

No argument from me. Nothing will convince everyone to forget the car, but that doesn't mean the situation cannot or should not be improved.

As for jam-ups, I believe JC was referring to traffic jam-ups, not people jam-ups at the bus stations.

Sorry I didn't make this clear enough, but besides the wait for a bus, the trip to DD, which was a direct route, took 45 minutes. That only happens if there is a traffic problem.

The people jam-ups are a Pavlovian effect of people, not an inadequacy of infrastructure. Why people stand in lines for a bus is beyond me, especially when you are aware ahead of time there is going to be a line.

Again, blame the customers for the problem. Look, the park is CLOSED, the shows are OVER. Most people will take this as a cue to LEAVE. Call them the equivalent of German Shephards if you want, but those doggies are Disney's meal ticket.

Matt, I honestly believe there are limits to how far you can take this thinking, even for a world class organization like Disney. You may say that is un-Walt-like, but face it - there are things Walt would have liked to have done that he didn't because he even realized there were limits to what could be done.

That's a nice statement of reality, but it in no way proves that the current transportation system is the limit of what can be done.

Are you honestly saying that the current system has reached "Walt-like" limits?

Regardless, when Walt, or any other great customer service oriented leader, comes to the conclusion that they cannot do anything to improve the situation, they still NEVER blame the customer for their expectations.

If they do, you can rest assured they have not explored what is truly possible and are instead taking the easy way out. Its a common course of action from common companies.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Sorry I didn't make this clear enough, but besides the wait for a bus, the trip to DD, which was a direct route, took 45 minutes. That only happens if there is a traffic problem.

Matt, do you think that 45 minute trip was typical, or was that some kind of exception? There are always going to be exceptions, no matter how good the system is. There are going to be accidents and emergencies, even if you find a way to have less cars on the road. Really, given the relatively short, straight shot ride from MGM to DD, traffic would have had to crawled almost the whole way. I doubt you will find a guest who has drivn around WDW as much as I have (Easter, Christmas, Summer, Memorial Day, President's Day, as well as tons of off season dates) and I have never seen that. Perhaps there was some back-up getting out of the MGM parking lot? Even if that was the problem - Disney should find a way to avoid it. However, I still don't think there is overcrowding on the roadways in general.

That's a nice statement of reality, but it in no way proves that the current transportation system is the limit of what can be done.

No, it doesn't - and I don't believe that it has reached that limit. However, neither does having some guests who are unhappy prove that the system is inadequate.

 

[raidermatt]

Matt, do you think that 45 minute trip was typical, or was that some kind of exception?

hjkghjkghj,gfhj

That was me banging my head on the keyboard.

As I said, we typically avoid the flow of the crowds. In other words, if the herd is heading to the bus depot, we find something else to do. So for us, it is a definite exception.

I have no idea if its common at closing time, but I would suspect it is fairly common. Again, the result of closing the park with an event and not having the transportation infrastucture to support that practice. Maybe its only at "busy times", like Summer and holidays. Even so, it would impact a lot of people.

No, it doesn't - and I don't believe that it has reached that limit. However, neither does having some guests who are unhappy prove that the system is inadequate.

Considering that the WDW resort is in the business of serving its guests, then I would say unhappy guests is a darn good measurement. Of course measuring how many guests are currently unhappy, and further, how many would be HAPPIER with a more robust system is the tricky part. Nonetheless, guest satisfaction is the key, after safety is addressed of course.

 

[DisneyKidds]

That was me banging my head on the keyboard.

No need for head banging. I realize it isn't typical for YOU, I was asking if you think it is typical in general. In my experience, I haven't found that to be the case, but who knows?

hgkhgkhgkkjkgdkjd

That was me banging my head on the keyboard. Yes, guest satisfaction is the key. However, and this is not intended to "blame the guest", do you believe there is ANY system that will keep EVERY guest happy? I don't.

 

[hopemax]

Before Matt kills himself with computer equipment, why doesn't someone go grab Tyler off the Transportation board. If anyone can comment on the traffic situation at Disney, certainly it would be a WDW bus driver.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by raidermatt
They actually blame the customer for the problem.

That's right, in fact in this case, I’m not blaming the customer for the problem, but actually saying the customer IS part of the problem. The customer in this case is accomplishing a self-fulfilling prophecy of bad transit conditions. Guests get a method of transportation. It's good enough if used properly.

Picture it this way.

Hell hath frozen over and all the busses are gone. Everyone has to get everywhere on their own just like everywhere else on earth. Has Disney done us a service or disservice? Are you happier or not?

Originally posted by raidermatt
Does anybody really think that any of the above quotes belong in any conversation Disney has about their offerings?

Yeah, I do. That's why I wrote them.

So the question is: How do you get people out of rental cars?

And when your trying to get to your room at the All-Stars, from your 8pm priority seating at 1900 Park Fair, and the buses stopped running from the MK at 8PM because the park closed at 7PM, and your facing a ride to DD, perhaps it's better to just hop in that rental car.

The question was, "Why do people use rental cars?" Or for that matter, "Why do people not use Disney transportation?"

What is your answer to the question?

Yes, you are right, I only fielded the part after “and”. To answer the actual question given, I’ll go back to my original post here and have you look at the image.

Of course it might be interesting to see what happens if guests did stop taking advantage of late night offerings like dining and entertainment because they choose not to drive and become part of the "problem." Wonder how fast Disney's transporation system would change once that revenue stream declined.

I do have to say that the lack of direct transport to BW is a shortcoming. If they are marketing it as an onsite, late night venue, they better make sure you can get to/from it without any extraordinary hassles.

Sorry I didn't make this clear enough, but besides the wait for a bus, the trip to DD, which was a direct route, took 45 minutes. That only happens if there is a traffic problem.

Give me a ballpark guess as to the bus to car ratio during this traffic problem if you would please. I’m betting it was mostly cars. There is NO EXCUSE for traffic jams short of an accident.

-but-

Don’t blame Disney for the jams just because it’s their roads though. The upset customer on the bus sees it as a Disney problem when in most cases it’s the cars causing it, not the official transports. How is the customer right in this case?

Look, the park is CLOSED, the shows are OVER. Most people will take this as a cue to LEAVE. Call them the equivalent of German Shephards if you want, but those doggies are Disney's meal ticket.

Everyone should be out buying plush and pins Matt! You know that The shops are open late. They take most forms of payment.

That's a nice statement of reality, but it in no way proves that the current transportation system is the limit of what can be done.

Are you honestly saying that the current system has reached "Walt-like" limits?

I don’t think it’s even close to its limits, but that has nothing to do with “adequate”.

hjkghjkghj,gfhj

That was me banging my head on the keyboard.

Dude, that can’t be good for the keys!

Of course measuring how many guests are currently unhappy, and further, how many would be HAPPIER with a more robust system is the tricky part.

The second part of that is easy! 100% I don’t even need an official survey. The truly tricky part is whether or not that sort of system is possible.

Before Matt kills himself with computer equipment, why doesn't someone go grab Tyler off the Transportation board. If anyone can comment on the traffic situation at Disney, certainly it would be a WDW bus driver.

I would be honored to hear from him again. He always has great insight into the bus system. I love when he sets people, including me straight on bus issues.

JC

 

[DisneyKidds]

I would be honored to hear from him again.

I've reached out to him on the transportation board. Maybe he'll drop by once he see we have a discussion going that involves the busses .

 

[crusader]

If your offerings are perceived by your customers as inadequate, it does not matter if YOU think they are adequate. Customer perception is the same as reality. Therefore your offerings ARE inadequate.

What syllogism! I thought good customer service was when you knew the customer was wrong, you were not going to change your policy to accomodate them because they were wrong, but you handled them in such a way that they left with a sense of gratification.

If a company engaged in the practice of trying to please all of the masses all of the time it would fail to meet any standard. People are ultimately impatient - they want what they want when they want it and they will not take no for an answer. This is really why problems which are seemingly minor are not tolerated. For some reason we have evolved our manner of thinking into the "me" philosophy instead of accepting what may be the best solution given the circumstances.

 

[raidermatt]

Yes, guest satisfaction is the key. However, and this is not intended to "blame the guest", do you believe there is ANY system that will keep EVERY guest happy? I don't.

iplliipphil[pk[

Used a different part of the keyboard this time.

Where did I say that there is a system that will keep EVERY guest happy? (Don't spend too much time, because I didn't say that).

I said that guest satisfaction is the key measurement in determining if WDW's transportation system is adequate, or efficient, or whatever term we choose to use. And, you agreed.

Great, and here's where we run into trouble, we don't really know how unhappy or happy most guests are with the system. We know some are happy, and some are unhappy. My opinion is that there would be a significant guest satisfaction benefit to using other forms of transportation, either instead of, or in conjunction with the current system of busses, boats and Monorails.

What I am SURE of is that Walt would not be safisfied with the current state of WDW's transportation system. He would demand that the talented people working for him come up with a better system. But I find very little value in bringing that up around here, because the pat response is that Walt's dead and things are different.

So since we are unable to agree on what the guiding philosophy of Disney should be, we are left to debate what guest satisfaction surveys do or don't say, whether the questions were pharased correctly, how much a foot of Monorail track costs, whether guests would pay more to stay at a WDW resort with better transportation, whether valuable plush-buying time is being lost on busses, whether guests should solve the problem themselves by taking the busses they don't like but not trying to take them when the parks close because the lines are too long and they are acting like cocker spaniels, etc, etc, etc...

 

[raidermatt]

I thought good customer service was when you knew the customer was wrong, you were not going to change your policy to accomodate them because they were wrong, but you handled them in such a way that they left with a sense of gratification.

That is how a good customer service representative handles a situation in which they find they are unable to give the guest that for which they are asking.

It is not, however, the guiding principle on which superior customer service is built. Good customer service looks for ways to keep the guests out of Guest Relations in the first place.

You are talking about managing expectations down to the level of what you are offering, making the customer happy. Certainly this has to be done at times, but it is a last resort, not a guiding force.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by raidermatt
...because the lines are too long and they are acting like cocker spaniels, etc, etc, etc...

I don't believe I specified a breed.

JC