Debate: Free speech a two-way street in school?

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by N.Bailey
(It's not the same with African Americans)

Why?

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
Why?

I guess I should have stated my thoughts a little better. In the sense of wearing the shirt to school, perhaps, but that's not what I meant by that statement.

I don't believe it's wrong, for the school's to teach about black history. It is a part of our history after all, and isn't that what HISTORY class is for?

I know many people have equated gay's rights to be on the same level as African American's rights. How anyone in their right mind can put these two issues on the same level is beyond me.

All that aside however, I've never heard anyone say that learning about black history has invaded on their moral positions (other than their blatant hatred for people of color). Homosexuality does exactly that though for those that believe in the Lord. Now, if gay's what to fight for the right to do this that or the other, that's fine. I am not suggesting that we suppress them in anyway. They need to go through the proper channels (and we all know it's only matter of time until they are free to marry in every state in the nation). That's not where I have the problem. I just don't want a teacher advocating to my child that it is all right for them to be gay because as their parent, I don't feel it's ok at all. Because we have so many Christians in this country, I think there are a lot of people that agree with me too.

Again, you don't have to like how I think. You don't have to agree with it either. As the parent of my child, I don't want anyone telling my child that my beliefs are wrong! You have your own children? Teach them anyway you see fit.

My feelings do not stem from hatred of any kind. One of my closest friends is gay (though questioning) and I've had many co-workers who have been gay and I only had a problem with one. He was just too much to take! He'd carry a purse in and brag that his was better than yours, willing swinging his butt (He watched too much TV I think) and go into grotesque detail about the encounter he had either the night before, or sometimes, right before he came to work. He'd also smelled the part (literally - gagging thinking about it). He was really toooooo much!

 

[MHopkins2]

Understand that I am not trying to change your mind - push comes to shove, I don't care if you think being gay is "right" or not. And I applaud your apparent acceptance (or gracious resignation, as the case may be ) of the marriage "agenda." However...

Originally posted by N.Bailey
I know many people have equated gay's rights to be on the same level as African American's rights. How anyone in their right mind can put these two issues on the same level is beyond me.

This is really what I was asking you - why do you feel this way? Why is the comparison "beyond you?" (I'm not arguing that they're "the same," but the principle is identical.)

All that aside however, I've never heard anyone say that learning about black history has invaded on their moral positions (other than their blatant hatred for people of color). Homosexuality does exactly that though for those that believe in the Lord.

Back in the day, a lot more whites had a "blatant hatred for people of color." And many of them based that hatred on interpretation of Scripture. (I'm sure there are still some who do so, although I don't have the stomach to Google for them right now.)

Like I said, I'm not trying to change your mind. But it's something you may want to mull over. People were *so very* wrong with that Biblical interpretation and how it was applied to society; how can you be sure this interpretation is what God intended?

He was just too much to take! He'd carry a purse in and brag that his was better than yours, willing swinging his butt (He watched too much TV I think) and go into grotesque detail about the encounter he had either the night before, or sometimes, right before he came to work. He'd also smelled the part (literally - gagging thinking about it). He was really toooooo much!

Assuming that you'd have an equal problem with a skanky hetero coworker, I have no argument with this. (Although personally, I don't mind hearing the grotesque details. )

 

[izzy]

Originally posted by Pete's Mom


Whew! Now if I can just get *snerk* added to the banned list.

NOOOOOOO!!! Don't get "snerk" banned! It's my new favorite word, and I'm now starting to incorporate it into work e-mails! I've even modified it a little bit to now be "snork."

Please, I ask of you, leave my "snerk/snork" alone!

 

[poohandwendy]

I guess I will address the points made by MH2

The reason this issue is different than discriminaton against blacks is because of lack of 'proof' of who is right. We all know that blacks are born that way. (that doesn't stop prejudice, but that is another debate) There are different camps and they all have the right to their beliefs because they cannot be proven wrong.

One camp thinks gays were born that way, period
One camp thinks they were born that way, but it is a defect and shouldn't be considered acceptable
One camp thinks they make a choice to be gay, but they don't care either way
One camp thinks they make a choice to be gay and that it is immoral and shouldn't be considered acceptable
Then there is the camp who is unsure of the origins, but has the live and let live attitude


My point is that this is just like religious belief because there is no absolute scientific proof that can convice the masses to come to a mutual agreement. As long as that is the case, it is a moral hot button issue that many, many people feel very strongly about and should be left out of the public schools, IMHO. Noone should decide what is 'right' if they cannot prove that there is evidence that they are right. So, in essense, it is a belief based issue. Schools (public) have no business sponsoring belief based issues, one way or another,IMHO.

 

[emmagata]

Originally posted by dennis99ss
How is this "on topic"

The debate board was removed for a reason. One likely being space debates take up, second the nastiness that occurs, and third the fact that they had nothing at all to do with the other DIS boards. I for one would like to keep the DIS boards up, so, cut the debates.

Um, neither does the one you just posted that message on.

 

[N.Bailey]

As a Christian, I try to follow all of what the Bible says. I'll grant you, there is a lot in that book, and a lot more that I don't know yet. As a Christian though, it's my duty to not only pick and choose what I want to believe and what I don't. God also told us not to judge others. That he would be the final judge in the end (and I feel sorry for me when I die!). Because of this belief, I would never tell anyone how to live their life. I would also never tell a person who was gay that I believe what they are doing is wrong. Well, let me correct that, I would IF and only IF they asked or of course, I was on a discussion forum LOL. Perhaps some thinking they are better than others because they believe (the holier than thou type) is what causes those that don't believe to have such negative opinions about Christians in general. I don't know.

So, when I say I feel homosexuality is wrong, I am saying I believe it wrong for ME. I also feel my children are my responsibility, and I want to pass my beliefs onto them as well. They'll eventually hit an age where they will have to determine if they're going to follow my beliefs or not. That's there choice! Once that time comes, there will be nothing (other than be sad if they turn away) I'll be able to do about it. What else can I say?

As for equating the gay movement to the rights for the African Americans, I'd say the only thing they have in common is that they have to fight to get what they want. Woman at one time had to fight for our rights too. Fighting it out in a court of law however does not compare to the fights the African Americans endured. It would have been a joy ride for them! I just don't see the comparison. It's not there for me and I think the homosexuality community trying to use that, lessons what the African American's went through.

As for the guy I mentioned, yes, I would have been repulsed no matter who he was! I like detail too (from my girlfriends, it's a girl thing ya know), but he went way more graphic than my worst GF ever did, and she never held anything back!

 

[MHopkins2]

Perhaps some thinking they are better than others because they believe (the holier than thou type) is what causes those that don't believe to have such negative opinions about Christians in general.

Heh - yeah, those aren't exactly my favorite "brand" of Christian.

 

[emmagata]

After reading the second article I got to thinking about the disruption issue.

The second article states how they showed support by being silent. Does that mean that they didn't say anything at all the whole day? Even if they were asked to participate in class (by speaking about whatever)? This leads to another question, if they didn't speak when required, wouldn't that be a disruption as well as the kid with the T-shirt? I also wonder if they wore something to identify they were participating in this event and with the possibility that the teachers were supporting them by not requiring them to speak.

 

[sunni]

Originally posted by sugermouse
And having someone preaching to you on there T- Shirt pisses a lot of kids off.

And having a school preach to you through "this" appreciation day and "that" appreciation day might piss off a few students too, don't ya think?

It is not the place of the schools to have appreciation days for groups of people, not unless you have a way to accommodate EVERY group with a day, which would be ridiculous if not impossible. School is for learning. Period. Not to teach us morality (or what we may feel is immoral). Not to make us feel all warm and fuzzy. Not to make us feel accepted. It is to learn. Reading, math, science, writing, and a few more subjects. The most the schools should teach is that it is wrong to hate and that everyone is entitled to respect because they are human (not because they are gay, or straight, or white, or black, or hispanic, or male, or female, but because they are human!) Schools are wasting far too much of their time and our tax dollars on crap, not basic teaching.

 

[MHopkins2]

P&W, you lost me.

The reason this issue is different than discriminaton against blacks is because of lack of 'proof' of who is right. We all know that blacks are born that way.

What difference does it make if gays were born that way or not?

 

[shortbun]

I personally find the T-shirt akin to bullying someone which
should not be tolerated in any way in any school. I would say
the same about a student wearing a T-shirt espousing
homosexuality. Making fun of or putting down any group for
it's beliefs and practices is bullying and has no place in school.
Zero tolerance for bullying. It's emotional violence.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by shortbun
I personally find the T-shirt akin to bullying someone which
should not be tolerated in any way in any school. I would say
the same about a student wearing a T-shirt espousing
homosexuality. Making fun of or putting down any group for
it's beliefs and practices is bullying and has no place in school.
Zero tolerance for bullying. It's emotional violence.

I find the school's gay appreciation day to be bullying and indoctrinating. They have no right to tell me who to be tolerant to and to trample on parents' rights to raise their children with the moral boundaries they see fit.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by treesinger
I find the school's gay appreciation day to be bullying and indoctrinating. They have no right to tell me who to be tolerant to and to trample on parents' rights to raise their children with the moral boundaries they see fit.

Absolutely ! If a kid doesn't want to sit next to that nasty (insert n-word here), the school shouldn't make him ! After all, their parents may think that blacks are the downfall of the white race, so why should the school get away with trying to TEACH them something different ? Martin Luther King appreciation day ?!? Not in MY family !!!

(sarcasm mode off)

As for the bible talking about how homosexuality is such an abomination. I shall resort to one of my favorite West Wing quotes:

Josiah 'Jed' Bartlet: I like how you call homosexuality an abombination.

Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President, the Bible does.

Josiah 'Jed' Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.

Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.

Josiah 'Jed' Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophmore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it OK to call the police? Here's one that's really important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads? Think about those questions, would you?

No need for me to argue it when that quote pretty well sums it up for me.

 

[MHopkins2]

MTE, wvrevy. I'm alternately amused and disgusted by how it's okay (in some circles) to teach your kids nasty things about one group but not another.

 

[cardaway]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
MTE, wvrevy. I'm alternately amused and disgusted by how it's okay (in some circles) to teach your kids nasty things about one group but not another.

Some flocks long for the return of a time when minorities are seen but not heard. And some would prefer not to see them as well.

(couldn't help myself today M )

 

[MHopkins2]

Heh. Bad Mike, BAD!

 

[faithinkarma]

wvrevy,

That is one of my very favorite West Wing scenes. And it needs to be quoted each and every time someone uses the bible to justify their indictment of homosexuality.

 

[MHopkins2]

I love it too, FIK, but unfortunately, there's wiggle room with the Old vs. New Testament thing. (Don't get me started.)

 

[jrydberg]

What difference does it make if gays were born that way or not?

The reason it is fundamentally different is that, as the "appreciation day" noted, it is a lifestyle. Being black is not a lifestyle. It is a physical characteristic. I can be very good friends with a gay person but still disagree with the lifestyle (note that disagreeing with the lifestyle does not mean one believes the person to be inferior). I cannot be good friends with a black person if I think they are inferior. Big difference, IMO.

The school ought not promote political causes if it isn't prepared to hear the other side.