DEBATE:Don't DVC Members Deserve the New Elite Fastpasses?

[ncligs]

Originally posted by jcodespoti
I love this. A four page debate on something that , at least in WDW does not exist!!Joe in CT

 

[raidermatt]

I love this. A four page debate on something that , at least in WDW does not exist!!!

Sort of like debating a war in Iraq.... Better to wait until it actually happens to discuss it, right?

 

[SnackyStacky]

Ohana, firstly:

Dan, I have tried to answer your post without vicious retorts,

Mission accomplished. Everything I say is said with the spirit of debate, and nothing more. As someone said, this isn't even available to WDW guests yet. But if it's at Disneyland, my gut and the current management's track record BOTH tell me that it ain't far off from Florida.

My point on this is that WE ARE the people who would most want this perk,

I hate saying it this way, because it sounds nasty, and I don't mean it to be, but I have to use your words so you know I understand your argument. But THAT sentiment is why I feel you should be "excluded" from this perk.

You aren't necessarily the people who would want that perk most. I want it every bit as much as you do if not more. Just because you are DVC members doesn't mean you want it most, it just means that you were able to buy into the DVC.

And as for my being able to actually get the perk, well, techincally I can, but practically I can't. I can't afford a package. I have to book each item seperately. But I'm not complaining about that. If I can't afford it, I can't afford. That's just the way they're trying to do it.

Pretend this new system is at Disney World for a moment. I'm Joe Schmoe from the street who booked a package through my travel agent. I then sign on to the Disboards, read about this, and try and cancel to book through WDTC. Well, my travel agent won't give a full refund if I cancel because I want to book through WDTC to get this perk.

I still say:

You were given certain incentives to buy into the DVC program, and that's the way you chose to book. Now they're looking to try these new fastpasses as an incentive for a different way of booking. It's like buying an item for regular price, and trying to take the item back and get it for sale price.

 

[ohanafamily]

Oh great and glorious Snackmeister ( I couldn't resist, I have been biting my tongue on it for a few months) I guess we agree on so much; one of those things being that this will probably be implemented as a cash generating measure in some form or another by the current regime. In a perfect world there would be no need for this. This is why I think it should be priced outrageously high. I also think it should be offered to anyone wanting to pay for it, not just people booking a certain way. If I want to pay triple (as an example) for my PAP to get FOL access, I think that Disney should accept my money with a smile if they offer the service. If they don't offer the service to anyone, I would be OK with it. Also, if they tie it to a premium resort, that is a reasonable limitation. As a DVC member I can use my points to stay at the Grand Floridian. It is a lot more expensive, but it is not leaving me out of the equation.

I also believe that they should change the ratio in some of the rides. Example, Test Track should have at least an equal ratio of Standby to Fastpass riders, not one per car.

Repeating myself, My problem with the FP comes in where they are not offering the availability equally, and where they are excluding DVC members by virtue of the way it has to be booked.

One last thing that I saw on another thread. at DL, you can't just walk up to the machine and ask for 20 passes; it is one pass per ticket per ride. The time limits apply to the same ride. This is a little more reasonable to me, but still not very acceptable.

US has a system where depending on the pass you buy, the more (whatever their fastpass is) you can get. I think it is 3 at once with an annual pass, and walk on the ride if you are staying on property. This isn't so fair, but it did get us to spend 3 days at US on the last trip.

 

[d-r]

I agree with Ohana family.

I also agree with Gcurling and Land Baron, to an extent.

BUT, if they do offer it, then there is a pretty easy way to settle the envy part. Just make it so that anyone can get the uber fast pass thing for $25 a day or whatever. Then AP, DVC, Fl. Resident or even day trippers or whoever could choose to get it. Then you can include it as a perk for free if people choose to pay too much for the package.

That is easy and it would fix the envy part, but it wouldn't fix the part about "Disney selling my time in line." I don't think there is a way to implement it that could change that really, and to be honest, I don't think it is fair. There are times when the time is worth it to me more than the money, and I'd probably fork over the 25 bucks or whatever for the uberpass. But I know there are times when families of a gazillion go to wdw and they can't afford to buy those. Sure, nobody has to have a gazillion kids and that is a choice and all that, but it doesn't seem fair to me ultimately. I can enjoy fast pass the way it is right now, and feel no guilt at all waltzing past the stand by line people - why should I? They will probably waltz past me later. And if I'm in standby, it doesn't bother me if people breeze past in the fp line - I could have choose to do that too. But I don't know if I could buy an uberpass and not feel like a jerk passing up some family of a gazillion. Or if I could be in the stand by line and watch people passing me with their uberpass and not get pissed. Yeah, it would be fair in the spirit of capitaliism, and I know we don't leave in happy kindergarten socialism world, but jeesh, it just seems crappy.

DR

 

[ohanafamily]

One more thing on the US Express pass,

the lines converge. the Expresspass guest goes into a much shorter line, but there is not a CM standing there to say 5 to 1 ratio.....

it flows smoother, and both lines move.

in periods of low activity the lines are identical.

I think this system works a little more fairly than Disneys, and it allows for on site resort guests to jump in to the fast lane.

Again, I am all for a more fair FP system, especially when you walk up to the Pooh ride at 1:00pm and the next FP is available for 8:00pm. I get a FastPass, and get in line.

 

[raidermatt]

You were given certain incentives to buy into the DVC program, and that's the way you chose to book. Now they're looking to try these new fastpasses as an incentive for a different way of booking. It's like buying an item for regular price, and trying to take the item back and get it for sale price.

But again, the premium FP works to the detriment of those who it is not available to.

This was not the case with DVC incentives. The only incentive I received was the option to sell back my first year's points. Whether I took that option or not had no impact on anyone else's experience inside the parks.

If they need to offer incentives to certain segments to get them to book, fine, offer them. The only problem with this one is it works to the direct disadvantage of other at least equally loyal guests. I have no problem with them offering you a 10% discount to book through certain channels, because that has no impact on my vacation.

See the difference?

 

[SnackyStacky]

See the difference?

Yes. I've seen the difference all along. Really. I don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

I understand that the rules are excluding you. I really do understand that. REALLY!!!

But again, the premium FP works to the detriment of those who it is not available to.

Exactly. And the point that I'VE been trying to make is that even though in a VERY techincal sense EVERYONE except DVC members will be able to get the pass, in a very PRACTICAL sense, there will still be a lot excluded.

No matter how they do this, I should imagine that those who actually get this perk will be relatively small group. I have to think that that's what Disney is assuming, because there's no way the system can work if tons of people take advantage.

By offering it to DVC, that offers it to a WHOLE other group of people who probably WILL take advantage. Which directly affects EVERYBODY else.

You know how you all feel excluded from the "perk", because, well, you are? That's how EVERYBODY else who can't afford it feels. And I'm not saying that you specifically deserve to feel like that, but why shouldn't you when there are lots of other people...LOYAL guests who feel the EXACT same way.

And once again, THAT'S why this whole system is crap. No matter HOW they do it, a HUGE group of people are going to feel alienated and cheated.

 

[ohanafamily]

Hey Snacky, I understand where you are coming from. Right now DW and I are quite comfortable, but she keeps reminding me that we don't have money to waste. The point remains that on this thread the discussion is about "if this perk were offered should DVC people be excluded" The current Ei$ner Mindset is to generate cash no matter the cost. That means that people who have to use the "A La Carte" system pay for what they can. As I have said previously, This whole concept is not the best long-term strategy for the park. I am also saying that excluding DVC members from this is a much worse step. This would be a strong reason NOT TO BUY into DVC. As we all know, DVC is one of their most profitable divisions right now.

IMHO There also needs to be an overhaul of how the FP system works in order to accomodate the vast numbers of guests who could potentially get this UFP. If you note on one of my previous posts, I stated what is being done at US. I think WDW needs to balance the line equation so that the "Stand-By Line" moves at a reasonable rate.

Also, you are not "Losing the battle", this thread has a different focus that the other one (more of a would this be an evil thing) I think most of us agree (after the greed of wanting the pass for ourselves wears of) that longterm the idea is not a good one. I think also you will find a lot of asgreement that we will have a version of this system at WDW after they work it at DL. Don't forget, there are only a limitted number of FP per day. Once they are gone they are gone. Even someone who can get all they wanted will have to wait in line once they have all been given out. So in reality, without an overhaul of the system, the only effect on most of us will be that we can't get a fastpass because they have all been given out. A big negative affect IMO, but not one that will grind the Stand-by line to a halt.

 

[PKS44]

Comparing Universal's system to FP is like comparing snowflakes to avalanches...there are just way more people staying on property at Disney...and way more people period.

DVC members are not excluded from this proposed new system-they can book vacations like everyone else...they just can't use their points to do so...tough-I own DVC-nowhere was I ever led to believe this meant that I will get or am entitled to everything Disney ever thinks up to promote hotel bookings....They say DVC can actually save you money over the years compared to paying cash each year for similar or lesser accomodations...so why should DVC members enjoy those cash savings and get this new perk? That makes no sense from a Disney business standpoint and no sense period-we get our perk- nice accomodations, less cash out over the long haul in exchange for our loyalty to come thru Disney for vacations for 40 years.

From a strictly business standpoint- FP supposedly has increased guest satisfaction and per guest spending. Any change may affect that equation either increasing satisfaction or decreasing it, increasing per guest spending or decreasing it...I tend to suspect it will overall have a negative effect...Disney has been pretty bad about guessing these things lately so I would not assume that they know what is best...which is the most telling example of how badly managed this company has become.

Paul

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by PKS44
DVC members are not excluded from this proposed new system-they can book vacations like everyone else...they just can't use their points to do so...

I've been wanting to say that! Don't know why I didn't!!

 

[ohanafamily]

Paul, I will be a little blunt with your last post. I strongly disagree with your business rational. It makes good economic sense to not majorly change the way you give the main part of your service to people who have paid 40 years in advance. This can be a major change/feature.
Edited by Moderator
Disney is a big company with many PR and advertising concerns. They must think all of these things through allowing for what it will do to their existing customer base. Unfortunately, there are people in high positions there that don’t seem to understand how cause and effect affects economic models.

Additionally, I hate quoting myself, but

This would be a strong reason NOT TO BUY into DVC. As we all know, DVC is one of their most profitable divisions right now.

Disney will do what they do. I would hope that they wouldn't want to tork off a major portion of their steady revenue stream guests. But I also ask those of you who aren't DVC members not to flame those of us who are, and furthermore, before you decide that we are evil for wanting this perk, realize that most of us wouldn't buy it (I might, but after analyzing it may not think it is worth it) but we do not like the fact that Disney is Excluding us from it. THEY SET UP THE RULES ON HOW WE HAD TO BOOK. We have shown our support, and prepaid our hotels. Packages are usually extras, almost all of the items on which can be purchased separately. There is an occasional special edition pin, but for the most part the packages make it easier for the first time guest.

DW and I have been reviewing the packages and add-ons that have been available for the past few years, and there really hasn't been a perk like this offered in at least the last five years.

My point, this is off of the norm enough to where we could not have expected this perk when we signed up. Besides, I think that they are cash hungry enough that if they do offer it, it will be for a price…..

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by ohanafamily
But I also ask those of you who aren't DVC members not to flame those of us who are

Hope that's not directed at me, because I haven't meant to flame DVC members. Not in the least.

and furthermore, before you decide that we are evil for wanting this perk

Once again, hope that wasn't directed at me. I don't think you're evil for wanting it.

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by ohanafamily
Paul, I will be a little blunt with your last post. I strongly disagree with your business rational. It makes good economic sense to not majorly change the way you give the main part of your service to people who have paid 40 years in advance. This can be a major change/feature. .....-snip-...But I also ask those of you who aren't DVC members not to flame those of us who are, and furthermore, before you decide that we are evil for wanting this perk, realize that most of us wouldn't buy it (I might, but after analyzing it may not think it is worth it) but we do not like the fact that Disney is Excluding us from it. THEY SET UP THE RULES ON HOW WE HAD TO BOOK. We have shown our support, and prepaid our hotels. Packages are usually extras, almost all of the items on which can be purchased separately. There is an occasional special edition pin, but for the most part the packages make it easier for the first time guest.

Ohanafamily-
[Edited by Moderator]
I observed the complexity of the ecomonic situation by stating that it could go either way up or down. I took a guess that it might backfire and decrease overall satisfaction-that would include dissatisfaction by DVC members and potential DVC members...sounds like you actually agree with that but for some reason you think I said something different...

As for what DVC means; you wrote " We have shown our support, and prepaid our hotels." That decision was on an economic basis- IF you use your points you will get accomodations for the next 39 years for less money than if you paid as you go. That is what the DVC deal is- nothing more, nothing less...it is not a loyalty pact with Disney to provide anything else. Read your contract. It is a real estate transaction. Anyone who feels that they are being slighted by not "getting" some deal forget the DVC is a deal that others are not getting because they are showing their support for Disney by paying as they go and giving Disney even more of their money than DVC members will over the next 39 years.

I don't know who you think flamed DVC members--it could not be me--did you miss this part of my post "I own DVC"

Also you clearly did not read what I wrote when you wrote-"we do not like the fact that Disney is Excluding us from it. THEY SET UP THE RULES ON HOW WE HAD TO BOOK."
WRONG! They set up the rules on how we had to book USING OUR POINTS. You can book cash reservations anytime just like anyone else..use codes that are a better deal than your points...many DVC members do this from time to time to save their points for later- they are not excluded from booking like anyone else does- with cash. Vacation Points are Vacation points...they are not only not the same as cash, they are not the same as Reservation Points. Each is its own thing...you cannot just freely interchange them as if they were the same as cash paying customers.
[Edited by Moderator]

Paul

 

[Miss Park Avenue]

Whew! This is getting nasty! Maybe this thread should have been named, "Shouldn't DVC members deserve "a chance to get" the new elite fastpasses?"

Now I'll tell you how to get ultimate FP's (for a price).

Make your DVC ressies then call up disney's travel company and book the cheapest campground package you can get. Maybe three nights. Then you have 3 or 4 days to have the premium pass. Problem solved. That's how people staying at Super 8 used to get EE all the time.

I'm editing this to add that I am not condoning this idea.

If they are going through with an idea like this, I would hope they'd have to think very hard about the ramifications to other guests. Do they want more to book through Dreams Unlimited? Or do they want more people staying on property in general? Or do they want more DVC members? My guess would be that they would want all of the above.......And I've typed an idea and erased it enough times to realize that this would be a bad idea all around, if they offered this perk to WDW guests, it would have to be very carefully planned, and some way made for DVC members to be able to take advantage of it.

I'd like to see the fastpass system kept the way it is. Available to ALL! But if it has to be made into a "perk" (which looks inevitable) then make that available to all resort guests (which brings us back to those reserving the campground for a night for the perks). I don't see how fastpasses can run out if it goes from everybody in the park being able to get traditional FP's, to JUST resort guests getting premium ones anytime they wanted.

Just my humble opinion.


And I apolgize in advance for any spelling errors.

 

[Sarangel]

A Reminder to all posters:

This forum does not allow personal attacks on other posters. I have edited out a couple of comments that were inappropriate, and I hope we will be able to continue in a more cordial vein. If not, I will close this thread.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Sarangel

 

[HorizonsFan]

1. Raidermatt is very wise. I hope there are execs at Disney who think like him.
2. Just because the DVC contract doesn't promise anything other than accomodations doesn't mean Disney shouldn't want to keep us happy and coming back to WDW as often as possible or entice us to purchase an add-on. Keep your regular customers happy and they'll continue to be regular customers.
3. We don't know the details of implementation or even if this is going to happen. Let's discuss but not panic.

 

[raidermatt]

And the point that I'VE been trying to make is that even though in a VERY techincal sense EVERYONE except DVC members will be able to get the pass, in a very PRACTICAL sense, there will still be a lot excluded.

I agree!

It isn't that the ONLY problem I see with the system as proposed is that DVC members are practically excluded (more on that later...). Other groups will be excluded as well. Its just that the question was asked about DVC members, and whether they DESERVED the "perk". I said NO, DVC members DESERVE nothing beyond what is contractually obligated, but its a dumb move to exclude them from this program. I am now adding that its dumb to exclude certain other groups as well.

DVC members are not excluded from this proposed new system-they can book vacations like everyone else...they just can't use their points to do so...tough

Technically, you are correct. But from a practical point of view, which is really all that matters, DVC members are excluded.
If you are going to book without using your points, you don't need your points, and should sell them, which would mean you are no longer a DVC member. Those who remain members, remain practically excluded. Consumers don't care about whether technically they can do something. The practical aspects are all that matters.


This isn't about what is "contractually obligated". When a service company starts focusing on this, they are making a huge mistake.

Forcing DVC members (or AP holders, or any other "loyal" group) to stand in a standby line while they watch a AAA member zip by in the FP line is simply a dumb long-term business decision. It will create another point of animosity between Disney and its fans. It really doesn't matter if you or I think the animosity is justified. The point is that it will exist, and animosity hurts business. Its just that its hard to quantify the impact of that animosity in future quarters/years. Its much easier to pretend it doesn't exist and focus on the anticipated sales bump this quarter and next quarter.

 

[DisneyKidds]

nowhere was I ever led to believe this meant that I will get or am entitled to everything Disney ever thinks up to promote hotel bookings

Paul - I think I have generally agreed with most of what you have said on this topic..............so far. However, I don't know that I agree with this logic.

I agree - if Disney comes up with a cheaper way to book rooms that we can't take advantage of because we already invested in DVC - well, too bad. We lose out. Furthermore, as I said long ago on one of these threads, if this potential change is just a gimmick to sell a few overpriced WDTC packages and doesn't have a significant impact on the fastpass system - who cares what they do. BUT, if this ends up being a change that completely alters the fastpass landscape it is a whole other story, IMHO.

A perk, discount, etc that simply promotes bookings or discounts rooms and doesn't really effect others is fine - even if everyone can't take advantage. A new system that completely changes the lines and waits on rides and excludes certain people to their detriment is something that could create problems.

 

[SnackyStacky]

I agree!

It isn't that the ONLY problem I see with the system as proposed is that DVC members are practically excluded (more on that later...). Other groups will be excluded as well. Its just that the question was asked about DVC members, and whether they DESERVED the "perk". I said NO, DVC members DESERVE nothing beyond what is contractually obligated, but its a dumb move to exclude them from this program. I am now adding that its dumb to exclude certain other groups as well.

The member base of DVC is over 60,000 people. So, by allowing for you to get these fastpasses without booking through the correct avenues, that opens it up to over 60,000 people who don't have to do what everyone else does to get this privlege.

Look at it this way:

In order for you (collectively, as DVC members) to save money on your Disney vacations, you bought into the DVC. And that's FINE. (Just so we're clear that I'm not name calling, or resentful or flaming anyone....envious, but not resentful, or flaming! )

In order for others to save money, others book the vacation pieces seperately.

NOW, with this system, people can't book the way THEY normally book if they want to save money and get this perk.

So what you're saying is that you should still be able to save the money on your vacation and be able to buy into the Ultimate Fastpass privlege. When everybody else won't be able to save that money. They'd have to spend substantially more.

And I know that you're saying you should be able to purchase the privelege, but you've still made a substantial savings on your accomodations.