Debate: Do you let your kids lie?

[dismom2]

What is your son allergic to? You said he couldn't eat anything they sell in a movie theater. You also said he can't go to parties at a pizza place, or the Japanese restaurant.

Did the mom really call you up to ask why your son didn't eat anything at the movies? I don't know why she would care.

And, where do you live where 12 year old boys are only having parties at restaurants, with no activities at all---just eat and leave? I don't know any boys---or kids--- (except maybe older, drinking-aged one's) who would plan a birthday 'party' like that. I'm wondering... can't your son at least go for the social aspect of it at least? Most kids love shooting the breeze with each other. I would think if he was close to any of these boys, he would want to be around them, even if he can't eat the food being served (can he eat beforehand, as a PP suggested?). Sounds like maybe he just doesn't care to go.


As for your daughter's friends: I'm not Mormon, but I've never heard of a service being that crazy. Why does your DD hang around with these people who have no respect for her wishes? If she has repeatedly told these 'friends' she doesn't want to go to church with them, and they keep bugging her weekly to go, she should either be more aggressive and say "NO, and please do not ask again", or find some friends who are more respectful.

As for teaching the kids to lie....

There are alternatives to how you are approaching your situations. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, really.

 

[LisaR]

Wow...I didn't realize it was that harsh. I guess at this point my dd would be saying "I really value our friendship, I would like it to continue without pressure regarding religion, your choice". I would imagine that the constant stress of having to come up with a last minute excuse would be worse than just saying outright I like you but I don't like the pressure?

I understand where you are coming from OP, but it doesn't hurt to explore other options from time to time, because the lying part doesn't seem to be working either. I imagine if it works it works, but if the problem persists even with the 'lies' I am not sure that is the correct answer. Just my personal opinion and in no way reflects whether I think you are a bad parent. You are in your situation not me.

Kelly

Like I said, my daughter hasn't had many issues with these kids in the past two years. Most have eventually recognized that she wasn't going to budge. The one still tries almost every week. She is honestly the sweetest girl. I like her a lot but she is definitely brain washed (JMO). She is moving next summer so that won't matter for too much longer.

What is your son allergic to? You said he couldn't eat anything they sell in a movie theater. You also said he can't go to parties at a pizza place, or the Japanese restaurant.

Did the mom really call you up to ask why your son didn't eat anything at the movies? I don't know why she would care.

And, where do you live where 12 year old boys are only having parties at restaurants, with no activities at all---just eat and leave? I don't know any boys---or kids--- (except maybe older, drinking-aged one's) who would plan a birthday 'party' like that. I'm wondering... can't your son at least go for the social aspect of it at least? Most kids love shooting the breeze with each other. I would think if he was close to any of these boys, he would want to be around them, even if he can't eat the food being served (can he eat beforehand, as a PP suggested?). Sounds like maybe he just doesn't care to go.


As for your daughter's friends: I'm not Mormon, but I've never heard of a service being that crazy. Why does your DD hang around with these people who have no respect for her wishes? If she has repeatedly told these 'friends' she doesn't want to go to church with them, and they keep bugging her weekly to go, she should either be more aggressive and say "NO, and please do not ask again", or find some friends who are more respectful.

As for teaching the kids to lie....

There are alternatives to how you are approaching your situations. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, really.

My son is allergic to soy, dairy, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish and reacts to all dyes. It looks like he is also starting to react to a couple fruits lately. Watermelon seems to be a new one but he hasn't been tested for that in years. These are not just minor reactions. He is epi pen dependent. He will swell up from head to toe and projectile vomit. He has contact allergies to dairy. The rest of the food he needs to ingest for a reaction. And no, he doesn't want to go just for the social aspect so why should I make him? He sees these kids all the time. Two were over today for seven hours! He doesn't feel the need to sit in a restaurant where he can't eat anything just so he can socialize. Actually, sitting in a restaurant is the last thing I would think any kid would really want to do. He would much rather hang out with another friend and play while some other kids are eating food he can't have.

I don't have a clue why 12 y/o boys would want a restaurant party. When the first kid did it, I thought it was an odd fluke. Over the past two years, he has gotten multiple invites for the exact same type party. There has only been one party that has been "normal" in the past two years. I find it very odd and it would be the last type of party either of my kids would choose.

As for my daughter, she can be friends with whomever she wants as long as they are not a danger to her. She is able to handle herself with these kids and it has definitely taught her that there are all types in this world. As I have posted, most have figured it out now. When they are at the mall or hanging out, religion is never, ever talked about. But on Tuesday night, the phone would ring off the hook for youth group invites for the following evening.

The one church where the kids were crying and chanting was not a Mormon church.

You call it "teaching my kids to lie." I call it "getting out of a sticky situation without having to be rude or insulting to others who just don't seem to get it."

We moved here 5 years ago and we regularly say that we are living in the Twilight Zone. I don't know if it is just us and not a good fit or if most of these people are wacky. I have a very small circle of friends here and they all seem to think the vast majority are wacky. It has been eye opening but we are here to stay due to a job for DH so I just do what needs to be done.

 

[alizesmom]

I am a firm believer in not lying. There is always something honest you can say in any situation. You have taught your children that lying is okay if the reason is good. How will you feel if/when you become the recipient of their lies? It may or may not happen but you will have to accept it (because they will feel they had a good reason).

 

[kaytieeldr]

In both situations, it seems much easier to say, "I have other plans but thanks for thinking of me." In fairness, both of my kids are rather busy and usually do end up doing something that particular day but they may not actually have plans at the moment they say they do.

Rather than ANY excuse, "Thank you for asking, but I can't" (repeated as necessary) is 100% honest and, because there is no excuse attached, unarguable.

 

[dismom2]

And if your kids say, "I have other plans", what do they say when someone asks them what their plans are? I know my kids and their friends always ask each other for more details. Your kids will have to continue lying. Now, if they make up something and someone finds out they lied, then what? Do they then make up yet another lie? This is the way lying works....it has a domino effect. One lie leads to another. Believe me, I know people who lie a lot. One of the bad things about lying is that people usually find out sooner or later.

 

[LisaR]

I am a firm believer in not lying. There is always something honest you can say in any situation. You have taught your children that lying is okay if the reason is good. How will you feel if/when you become the recipient of their lies? It may or may not happen but you will have to accept it (because they will feel they had a good reason).

Honestly, I am not even remotely worried about it. We are very much a "play by the rules" type family. We don't ever lie to get free admission or to cheat the system. We don't walk around every day of our lives telling lies. My kids know right from wrong and I am not at all concerned about them growing up to be deviants because they got tired of telling their friends NO and their friends can't take the hint. If they want to use me as an excuse (My Mom said I can't go), I am all for it. I guess I will just have to live with the consequences. I think I can handle it.

Rather than ANY excuse, "Thank you for asking, but I can't" (repeated as necessary) is 100% honest and, because there is no excuse attached, unarguable.

I can't say that they have never said those words. I am sure they have many times. I don't think those words are that much different then "my Mom said I can't." It seems like that takes a little of the heat off of them and puts it on me. I am okay with that. I am generally not standing over them monitoring every word they say so I could be misquoting them slightly.

 

[LisaR]

And if your kids say, "I have other plans", what do they say when someone asks them what their plans are? I know my kids and their friends always ask each other for more details. Your kids will have to continue lying. Now, if they make up something and someone finds out they lied, then what? Do they then make up yet another lie? This is the way lying works....it has a domino effect. One lie leads to another. Believe me, I know people who lie a lot. One of the bad things about lying is that people usually find out sooner or later.

It has never been a problem for them so far. As I stated earlier, they usually do end up having other plans but maybe not at the exact moment that they uttered those words. I will have to ask them if someone has ever asked them what their other plans are. I assume it has never been an issue because they have never said it has. Again, I am not standing over them so those may not be their exact words. They may say they don't want to go, can't go, don't feel well, have chores to finish, etc. Don't forget, these are with kids that have already been told "no thank you" on multiple occasions. In my day, that was all the reason one needed. All of these issues revolve around food for my DS and religious activities for my DD. My son does it out of frustration. He doesn't like to constantly point out to people that he can't eat what they can eat. With my daughter, she doesn't want to offend their religion and after saying no many times, she just gets fed up. That "Just Say No" slogan does not seem to work well in our area.

 

[JennaTX]

OP, I don't think any of the examples you cited do any harm, it is "white lies".

It is a fine line with kids...you don't want them to lie, but then you also don't want them to say "I hate your church" or whatever the issue is. Sometimes social situations call for saying "thank you, but no". Because goodness knows if your child did not "lie" and say "I think your church is crazy" you would be getting a phone call from that parent.

As adults we don't walk around saying whatever we think about whoever. I walk into the grocery store and the person says "how are you today?" do you really think they want to hear about what a crappy day I have had? No, I lie and say great, how about you?

I am amazed at the people who say "I never lie", sorry I don't believe it. If you are a parent and tell your kids about Santa that is a lie. (Of course my kids believe and I don't think it is wrong, just an example) As a parent there are so many ways we "lie" to our kids. Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc.

 

[shortbun]

White lies to spare friend's feelings sometimes IF it's discussed and also about Christmas gifts and birthday gifts to lead the recipient into mistaken ideas of what they are getting. I've always told DS that I will lie about gifts to him. He thinks that's funny and understands that it's all in fun. He's not lied since he was little(3ish). I think all small children lie a bit to see a. what will happen and b. because they hope to change things that way. They quickly learn that neither technique works.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I have let DS use "My Mom says no." or "Sorry, I'm doing something else." if he thought that sharing all the real details would hurt someones's feelings. (After all, he IS planning to do something else, even if it's stay home!)

We don't lie about his age, etc, and we have definitely talked about the difference between flat-out lying to get your way and scrounging for something nice to say. And, while I'm sure he isn't always dividing that line correctly yet, I'm confident that he eventually will.



"Today I bent the truth to be kind, and I have no regret, for I am far surer of what is kind than I am of what is true." - Robert Brault

 

[disneyjunkie]

But a canned response, as some of you have suggested, would still be a lie. In the two examples I used, the truth would be this:

DS: Thanks for the invite but as I have told you a million and one times, I have food allergies and I can't eat at XYZ Restaurant. Since your party is centered around food instead of games, I really feel left out. But hey, thanks for inviting me.

I should mention the last three invites he has received have been to the pizza joint and two were held at the Japanese place. There weren't any games or events. They just went to eat. Not much fun for a kid that can't touch any of the food. No biggie. I am not at all mad about it but after explaining multiple times that it won't work for him, people just don't seem to get it.

As for DD, if she was honest, she would have to say:
As I have told you a million and one times, I am not religious. While I appreciate you inviting me every single week to your youth group, I have also told you in the past that I am not interested in attending every week yet you keep inviting me. Going once or twice to check things out is one thing but I don't have any interest in attending weekly because I do not believe in what you believe in.

In both situations, it seems much easier to say, "I have other plans but thanks for thinking of me." In fairness, both of my kids are rather busy and usually do end up doing something that particular day but they may not actually have plans at the moment they say they do.

Why can't they just say "Thanks for the invite, but I can't attend the party/service."?

 

[Acklander]

Yes, I let my kids lie. This isn't a black and white world where truth is always good and lie is always evil. Instead I have them focus on the motivation for the lie.
If you're lying to get out of trouble, that's wrong, because you can't make things right until you own up to your mistakes. (but then again, I let my kids make mistakes and use that as a learning tool on what not to do in the future and how to try and make amends).
As far as the "little white lie" to spare someones feelings, I try to teach them how to be honest without being hurtful.
there also is the Santa/tooth fairy/easter bunny lie - the motivation behind that lie is it's a tradition in the spirit of the holiday
The OP mentioned the thread about the 9 year old on facebook. I have a 9 year old who has a facebook account. He had to lie about his age in order to get the account, but before he got the account I explained why the rule was in place (that adults are on facebook, and adults aren't always good, so the rule is there to protect children). We also talked about what was fun about facebook - he could keep in touch with aunts/cousins who live far away, he gets to play farmtown and yoville etc.... So I allowed him to lie about the age, but I have access to his account, it's on the highest security, and he's only allowed to friend people who we approve. The computer is in a common area and we're comfortable with our choice to let him have the account.
The reality is, everybody lies. I want my kids to be well aware that everyone lies at times. It's more important to look behind the reason for the lie, before judging someone for the lie.

 

[scottishduffy]

OP, i am with you on giving kids a way out of uncomfortable situations, or allowing them not to hurt a friend.

As a kid i always had the "My mom said No" out from anything i didn't really wan't to do. It allowed me out of a couple things, maintained a friendship without hurt feelings, and everyone understood the mom thing. It was really good to be able to blame mom and dad for things before I had really developed how to gracefully get out of awkward situations on my own. I *still* gained the knowledge, but before i did these little white lies helped.

I also had a friend who tried to take me to a crazy church every week. Honestly the speaking in tongues and slaying in the spirit really scared me when i was 13-14. When they started praying over me to 'remove demons' from my soul that was it!

I would use the canned excuse one or two times, but if someone persisted I would be more direct "I really can't go to your church because I am uncomfortable there. I'm sorry for not coming, but please stop asking".

As an adult the canned "I already ate" is soooo much nicer than "I know you claim to have cooked chicken but I can't tell what the heck is on my plate and prefer not to ingest possibly toxic substances."

I plan to give my (future) kids the same sort of out one day. You can always say Mom or Dad won't allow you if you need to get away from a situation. My parents were otherwise very honest and never lied about my age or anything else. I just always viewed sparing feelings more as etiquette than lying.

 

[onelilspark]

Little white lies to spare someone's feelings will always be a staple of our society.

The problem with saying "Sorry, I can't." Is that someone will always ask, "Oh, why not?" Then you have to come up with something. If it's someone you care about, you're not going to insult them.

My parents told me that if there was ever anything I didn't want to go to, blame it on them as well. Or, tell people I had a "family function." Then if people asked more questions it was, "Oh I don't know, but my Mom wants me home that night for some reason." Solved everything, people's feelings were spared.

When you're 14, you can't tell another 14 year old that her church freaks you out. Because in turn, what you're telling her is that she freaks you out (even if that's not what you meant.) And really, it sounds like that isn't the case, the daughter's friend is nice enough, just a little intense on the religious aspect...but in other aspects, the girls probably get along great. It's like if someone came along who really loved chocolate cake, and you didn't. But that person always offered you chocolate cake...would you end a friendship over it? Or would just decline it?

The thing is, you're not dealing with adults here. So you can't just say, "Listen, I'm really not religious and I'm uncomfortable at your church, I'd appreciate it if you stopped asking me." As a 20-something, I'd understand someone telling me that. At 14? That comes across as "You make me uncomfortable." You need to deal with those sensitivities.

I had friends in middle/high school who were extremely religious. While I went to Church and did my thing, I wasn't nearly as 'intense' as they were. Plus, since I didn't believe exactly the same thing as them, then my beliefs weren't "right." They'd invite me to their youth groups, but I'd decline because it wasn't what I believed in. Instead of telling my friends that when it came to religion I thought they were a little batty, I just would say that either a) I had my youth group to attend (we didn't hold ours as frequently) or b) when ours wasn't held, I would just tell them that my Mom likes me home for dinner on Sunday nights. True, but I could get out of that dinner if I wanted.

Point being: you do need to take into account that they're young teens/pre-teens and not adults.

Also, on the allergy issue, I have a feeling it's more that the parents don't understand rather than the kids. The kids probably get it because he eats lunch with them everyday, but when there are the "restaurant parties," the parents make a big deal about him not eating what everyone else is and it makes him uncomfortable. Anychance you can talk to the parents before the parties and if they don't understand have a family issue that suddenly arises?

 

[Tantor]

I do not tolerate it. DD did not get a Facebook account till she turned 13.

 

[luvsJack]

All of my kids have told white lies to get out of doing things friends. One of my son's would even text me from a friends house and tell me to call him. That way he could tell the friend I called and he needed to go home. It cut down on the, "come one man, you don't have to go yet" and the "will you run me to the . . . (where ever the person needed to go)"

The lies the OP is talking about her kids telling are perfectly understandable. Like the one about going to church activities. Some people are going to invite you every week no matter what, that is what their group leader is telling them to do. Her dd wants to remain friends with these kids and, from the sounds of it, it includes most of the kids around. Her daughter doesn't want to be the "odd man out", no one does at that age; so it would be really hard to say "i don't feel comfortable at your church" or "i don't believe in what your church does". If these kids were raised in the church and everyone they know is in a church, they are going to look at her like she has 3 heads and may start treating her that way. Keeping friends is way too important to kids to expect her to say something like that.

Telling little white lies does not lead to lying to your parents or to get out of trouble.

Adults tell little white lies all the time. How many of us have turned down lunch invitations because we didn't like someone who was going? Do we say, "no, i can't go because i don't like alice"? Of course not, we say something along the lines of "I have to much work to do" or some such and then we convince ourselves that it really wasn't a lie.

 

[okeydokey]

But a canned response, as some of you have suggested, would still be a lie. In the two examples I used, the truth would be this:

DS: Thanks for the invite but as I have told you a million and one times, I have food allergies and I can't eat at XYZ Restaurant. Since your party is centered around food instead of games, I really feel left out. But hey, thanks for inviting me.

I should mention the last three invites he has received have been to the pizza joint and two were held at the Japanese place. There weren't any games or events. They just went to eat. Not much fun for a kid that can't touch any of the food. No biggie. I am not at all mad about it but after explaining multiple times that it won't work for him, people just don't seem to get it.

As for DD, if she was honest, she would have to say:
As I have told you a million and one times, I am not religious. While I appreciate you inviting me every single week to your youth group, I have also told you in the past that I am not interested in attending every week yet you keep inviting me. Going once or twice to check things out is one thing but I don't have any interest in attending weekly because I do not believe in what you believe in.

In both situations, it seems much easier to say, "I have other plans but thanks for thinking of me." In fairness, both of my kids are rather busy and usually do end up doing something that particular day but they may not actually have plans at the moment they say they do.

Your son can just say, "Sorry, I won't be able to come". No need to make up an excuse.

 

[beattyfamily]

I do not promote or condone lying but I do teach them not to hurt people's feeling so a white lie to spare their feelings is acceptable.

If I find out that my 13 year old used me as an excuse not to go out with a friend ('my mom won't let me'), it's not the end of the world.

 

[KristinBelle]

Freaks here and no, we don't teach our children to lie.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I would like to respond to this thread however for the same reason I cannot delve into as per DISboard rules, is the same reason my dd has to lie at school.