DEBATE: Disney Monorails. Magical - Yes. But Effective?

Scoop are you thinking about the Detroit people mover? It looks like a monorail. It's a light rail linear induction thing.

http://www.thepeoplemover.com/

You know, I'm in Japan, and I got yen in my pocket...I think I'll go to Tokyo Disneyland this weekend and get away from all the nay-saying :);)

:> :| :- :+ := (I don't know how to make a sticking out his tongue smiley face).

y'all have fun and I'll check back in with you Monday :)

DR
 
Tyler -

Re: the BRT - Love the picture. What a great looking machine! Hopefully this is a viable alternative.

Its not just the cost of the Monorail, but the cost of alternatives, the cost of the current system, the long term expense, the difficult to quantify benefits of each potential plan....

Exactly - efficiency; cost effectiveness; functionability; capacity; mechanics; affordability; investment return; etc.... all need to be continually addressed.

If the design and function of the current system was not working we'd really see it. Guests would be alot more vocal than the traditional " My problem is I had to wait more than 20 minutes - maybe 40 minutes or 60 minutes and I am not happy."

An innovative unique transportation alternative simply to keep the flow of change happening at disney is not going to cut it at the multimillion to a billion dollar price tag. Aren't these the dollars everyone wanted reinvested in the parks? New rail systems look and sound great but I don't see how they a provide real option here in terms of cost/benefit either.


On the prototype bus we recieved, they were turned into Mickey Ears. Cute, right? Well... some religious groups felt they made Mickey look demonic... so that was no longer allowed to go on the rest of the new buses.

A similar idea had been tossed around with Disney execs, however, our legal department shot them right down. You'd be surprised at the things they will not let us have.

Here in lies the magical truth. Let the lobbyists and the litigators decide for all of us.
 
Originally posted by rwodonnell
Tyler, after I posted, I asked the rest of my family what the name of the driver was that we enjoyed so much. Sorry to say, none of them remembered, but I had thought I remembered it was "Tyler". My oldest son, 7, who has a great memory though, did remember a joke: "it wasn't my fault, or the bus's fault... it was the asphalt." Was that you? :)

LOL... That's my trademark joke! :)
 
Originally posted by thedscoop
It did not use bombardiers but we still thought it was so cool...

It should be noted that there are many other brands, and forms of Monorail out there. Take a visit to www.monorails.org for a look at the different variations, and the MANY monorails around the world. (They're not so unique and rare when you go global)

Originally posted by thedscoop
So, if he tells me that electric busses aren't an efficient option right now (are they, my friend?) even with Orlando having the perfect topography for e-buses (i.e. it's very flat), then I'll still dig around some but will pretty much rely on somebody with expertise like him over myself or others without that expertise.

The problem with alternative fuel busses, is that in comparison to Diesel engines, they're relatively new technology. As it stands currently, they're very fickle, maintenance intensive, expensive to buy and run, and not that reliable. And the Florida climate doesn't help any. I remember we had a CNG powered demo bus awhile ago, and it was always having problems. Now of course, it's not to say that it's not possible to have them down here... but personally, I'd wait a year or two for the technology to stable out. My personal favorite would be the Diesel-Electric hybrid. Currently, Boston's new Silverline will be getting some Neoplan articulated busses that will be powered by D-E hybrid engines. I'd be interested to see how they fare the New England climate.



Originally posted by thedscoop
So, while it is reasonable to expect a guest to wait 30+ minutes to ride Space Mountain, they'll hate to wait that long for a bus to get to Space Mountain.

An interesting story... when working at the MK monorail station, on the Express Load platform... people would be running up the ramp, just as I sent the train out... I'd tell them that the next train would be arriving in about 2 minutes. The reactions I'd get were unbeleiveable. Folks would be content to wait 30-60 mins for Space Mountain... but yet, 2 minutes for a Monorail was too much for them.
 

Originally posted by crusader
Re: the BRT - Love the picture. What a great looking machine! Hopefully this is a viable alternative.

It very well could be, *IF* properly executed. Special BRT lanes, different sized vehicles...



Originally posted by crusader
If the design and function of the current system was not working we'd really see it. Guests would be alot more vocal than the traditional " My problem is I had to wait more than 20 minutes - maybe 40 minutes or 60 minutes and I am not happy."

One particular day comes to mind... The introduction of Magic On Demand 2 years ago. What a day. Thankfully, I was working Monorails then. But at any rate, brand new system that no one was very familliar on... New technology that no one knew what to do with... and it all came crashing down. Within an hour, the Palm Pilots all crashed... Nothing was working right. No one knew what to do. And the poor guests actually did wait for an hour for a bus. And although I understand thier extreme frustration, the physical violence they inflicted on our cast members was unacceptable. So, yeah... if there were real problems like that, we would be seeing it a lot more, just like that one day. Thankfully, things are working right now, and while you may not think they're very magical... We do a great job with what we've got. (On a side note... MOD was retooled, and now is an excellent system with solid technology backing it, run by people who know what they're doing)
 
Tyler - they're not really content to wait for space mountain either and you can hear the complaints as soon as a line has formed.

But with transportation, the guest is venting - not merely at you but at whatever didn't go according to plan that day. They simply forgot to take a step back and look at the big picture. It's much easier to redirect all frustration toward the next visible thing that comes along and that inevitably will be transportation. Afterall it is what they start and end each day with.

The story about violence on the cast members is really tragic. I cannot understand why we do not have the respect we should for the people who work there.
 
Tyler, as posted by many others here, thank you for the insight.
MOD was retooled, and now is an excellent system with solid technology backing it, run by people who know what they're doing
So what you're saying is that there currently is a MOD system in place right now being used? Is this the system that mandates busses every 20 minutes or does it serve to lengthen or shrten duration between busses as demand is necessary? Just curious.

Another question for you: Do you consider the current system's handling of resort to resort travel acceptable (i.e. take a bus to DTD and get on another bus to that resort)? Is there a better way to handle this flow? Unfortunately, my experience with this resort-to-resort system has been that it can be slow. Essentially you have 2 bus rides and if you catch them at the wrong time (i.e. wait 15-20 mins for each bus coupled with 2 10-15 min bus rides) and you're talking an hour of your time. Please don't misunderstand my question - I'm not bashing. I like having someone else do the driving for me while I'm on vacation and have never rented a car on any WDW vacation (even with kids in tow....) It's just that it can be a rather long time if you're staying at OKW and want to eat on the Boardwalk....

Scoop, the monorail/tram thingy between the Dearborn Hyatt and Fairlane Town Center was dismantled in the early 90's. It had nothing to do with how well the system functioned (it was quick, efficient for a small point to point trip), but more because of the riff-raff hanging out in the mall that we're interested in taking a monorail ride who ended up at the Hyatt. The Hyatt didn't like that so it was taken down and replaced with (here's a shocker...) a shuttle service (van)...
 
So far, I've stayed out of this one, since I think the current bus/monorail/boat system works pretty well (and yes, I know I'm the minority). Frankly, drivers like Tyler (I know there are more, since we had one threaten to have folks who didn't get trivia answers correct go clean out the elephant stalls at AK) can make the whole bus thing not only bearable, but enjoyable after a long day in the parks.

I also believe that the fixed track idea would definately have its limitations. Here in the SF Bay Area we have a system called BART (not a monorail, but awfully similar) that connects outlying suburbs with downtown SF and during commute times it is *jammed* and if it breaks down the entire commute suffers. Anyway because I used to commute in a similar system, I don't really see the monorails as 'magical' and I would rather just get from here to there.

Anyway, I'll back off now and let y'all resume the debate about how to reform the WDW transport system.

Sarangel
 
Anyway, I'll back off now and let y'all resume the debate about how to reform the WDW transport system.
On the contrary. We need to hear more of your point of view. I get laughed off the internet by the likes of Baron when I say that there are lots of people who are pleased with the current system.
 
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
Tyler, as posted by many others here, thank you for the insight.So what you're saying is that there currently is a MOD system in place right now being used? Is this the system that mandates busses every 20 minutes or does it serve to lengthen or shrten duration between busses as demand is necessary? Just curious.

Right now, we use MOD v2.5... Busses are staged at a key location (Zone 6 = All-Stars parking lot, for example) From that point, they are dispatched to the resort to pick up for one of the four theme parks. Dispatch intervals and routes are demand based. For example... the dispatcher might see a light load for Epcot at Music and Movies... so they'll send one bus to go Music & Movies for Epcot. That bus then picks up for Epcot. Once at Epcot, instead of deadheadding (running empty) back to All-Stars, it gets dispatched to a Zone 3 resort (Port Orleans) to pick up for its home zone, DAK. They might be directed to go Riverside West, North, East for DAK. (Another bus will do FQ & RS South) MOD dispatch intervals can vary, but can run 5-15mins apart.

After 11am, we convert to FIDS... (Flexible Independant Dispatching System, often referred to as Flex Dispatch) Flex is based out of the theme park... no more sharing of buses. Instead of a bus being on a fixed route, each time they come into the theme park, they get a new dispatch. This maximizes efficiency by taking advantage of buses that return early. Dispatches now become On Time, Always.

All dispatches, both MOD and Flex are done via portable Tablet PC's equipped with RF modems (and with a paper backup in case of computer failure).

I have a much more detailed explanation over on the Transportation Board somewhere... i'll see if I can dig it up and link you.


Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
Another question for you: Do you consider the current system's handling of resort to resort travel acceptable (i.e. take a bus to DTD and get on another bus to that resort)? Is there a better way to handle this flow?

Well, that's a tough question. To be honest with you... I think that while not the greatest in efficiency, it's not as horrible as some folks can really make it out to be. Resort-to-Resort travel does not have anywhere NEAR the traffic flow that a theme park would have... but yet, to set up a system would require more buses than say, the Studios runs in a typical day. *shrug*

The real key to getting around effectivly is to use smart transfers. Avoid Downtown Disney, if at all possible. Use a theme park that is closest. For example, All-Stars to Contemporary... Head over to DAK, catch the bus there... or MK... and walk/take the monorail. If you had gone to DTD, it would take twice that time...


By the way... not only do I drive the buses, I do ride on them as well. Anytime family or friends visit me, and stay on property, my car stays parked. I drive all day every day, last thing I want to do when having fun. In addition, on my days off, I've also been known to just ride around property. In a little over two hours, I visited 5 resorts (not connecting), two theme parks, and Downtown Disney.
 
I have a much more detailed explanation over on the Transportation Board somewhere... i'll see if I can dig it up and link you.
I would appreciate that very much. Thank you.
The real key to getting around effectivly is to use smart transfers. Avoid Downtown Disney, if at all possible. Use a theme park that is closest.
We've often done the same in the past, even though the literature you see in the parks/hotels regarding resort to resort transfers tell you to use DTD as a hub.... It just seems that much more logical to use the first available bus to a nearby destination and catch a bus/monorail/ferry from there.... I guess Disney tells it's patrons to use DTD as a hub for simplicity's sake...
 
You may always wait for the next bus. You may not like that option, but it exists. Same with the monorail. Happens all the time.
You could also walk. Not a very customer-friendly solution, however.

Our typical statistics for "On Time" busses is in the 95-100% range. These are facts, with proven data.
Tyler, what you said was that 95% of customer complaints were either completely false or grossly exagerrated. Not that 95% of busses were on time.

Then would you agree that it is foolish to invest one billion dollars in a system that might not solve the problems like we want, and has no chance of ever producing any form of noticable return.
Sure I would, except that using the expanded monorail as at least a PIECE of the system has the potential to improve service, and does have added entertainment value to guests. Added entertainment value = added revenue for the entire resort. A grove of trees, a juggler on the Boardwalk, or a bus driver who tells jokes produce no direct return either. Yet they have value...

If Disney is going to invest that much money into something, they're gonna make gosh darned sure that it does what they want it to do.
I would expect no less. However, given the way certain major investments are not doing what Disney wanted them to, I cannot logically assume Disney is using the correct methodology when making their investment decisions.

Camp One (with Mr. Raidermatt as Cabin Counselor) appears to focus more on the quality of the experience of the transporation (in and of itself, certainly not a bad thing) and isn't real concerned with the efficiency of the system, both financially or more importantly logistically.
Just call me Tripper.*

Oh, Scoopy, Scoopy, Scoopy....so close, but yet so far.

Yes, I am VERY focused on the quality of the transportation experience, but I am actually VERY concerned with the efficiency of the system, both financially AND logistically. If I were only concerned with the quality of the experience, I'd be saying "Build the Monorail NOW!!!!"

But I'm not.

I'm only saying it does have entertainment value, and it is being dismissed AS A POSSIBILITY far too quickly. Despite Tyler's well documented experience as a Disney bus driver, and his imminent engineering degree, we don't have anything CLOSE to the information needed to make this call.

Most notably, we have absolutely ZERO info on real estimates of what the entertainment benefit of the Monorail (or any other system) might be. One simply cannot even begin to calculate the financial impact without this part of the equation.

Yes fixed rail has its limitations, but it certainly has benefit in the MK area when combined with the other transportation options. If it works as a localized line in the MK area, then it can work as a localized line in the Epcot/CBR area, if nothing else.

That's just one example of how it might be of benefit. IF an expanded Monorail were part of the plan, it wouldn't have to be an all or nothing deal.



Here in the SF Bay Area we have a system called BART (not a monorail, but awfully similar) that connects outlying suburbs with downtown SF and during commute times it is *jammed* and if it breaks down the entire commute suffers. Anyway because I used to commute in a similar system, I don't really see the monorails as 'magical' and I would rather just get from here to there.
Hey, Sara. Yes, I am VERY familiar with BART. In various periods of my Bay Area life, I've used it to commute from the East Bay to SF, and to Concord, and also from the Tri-Valley into SF.

And yes, during commute hours it is SRO on some lines. And yes, when it breaks down, it does wreak havoc on the commute. And certainly I agree it is not exactly a magical experience (per my "urine" and "Projects" comments earlier)

But its also a necessary part of the Bay Area's transportation system. While I wouldn't want it to be the ONLY way to get around, it is necessary to have anything close to resembling an efficient overall system.

*Somewhat obscure movie reference.
 
If I were only concerned with the quality of the experience, I'd be saying "Build the Monorail NOW!!!!"
Really? Is it possible to have the quality transportation experience you are referring to without the efficiency? I don't care how Magical a monorail car, or the view from it, might be - if the trip takes significantly longer than a bus and you are standing the whole time is it going to be a quality experience?
 
DK, in the context of Scoop's descriptions, efficiency was separate from the "quality" of the experience, and it is in that hypothetical context that I made my comment.

I agree that in reality, the efficiency effects the quality of the experience, and cannot be separated. That's one reason why I am not calling for Monorail expansion. We don't KNOW how various potential plans would effect efficiency, nor are we equipped to produce a reasonably well-informed cost/benefit analysis.

It should just be an option on the table...
 
Originally posted by raidermatt
Tyler, what you said was that 95% of customer complaints were either completely false or grossly exagerrated. Not that 95% of busses were on time.
I'm sorry, I probably did not make myself clear enough. Indeed both statistics are true. They just happen to be around the same percentage.
 
I'm sorry, I probably did not make myself clear enough. Indeed both statistics are true. They just happen to be around the same percentage.
No problem, but I still dispute the statement that 95% are grossly exagerrated or completely unjustified. As I said, the real number always falls somewhere between customer and employee perception.

No worries, just a difference in opinion based on our experiences.
 
Hey, Sara. Yes, I am VERY familiar with BART. In various periods of my Bay Area life, I've used it to commute from the East Bay to SF, and to Concord, and also from the Tri-Valley into SF.

And yes, during commute hours it is SRO on some lines. And yes, when it breaks down, it does wreak havoc on the commute. And certainly I agree it is not exactly a magical experience
I expected that you, of all people Matt, would be familiar with it. My point, however, is that BART and the monorail are pretty similar in user experience (as I would guess are the rail systems in DC & NY, though I've not seen them), and that that similarity makes the monorail seem less magical to me & more mundane. Commute times are crowded whether it is a work commute or a park commute. If you catch a seat, it can be pretty nice, but I'm not crazy about standing in a crowded train (of however many rails) any more than I'm crazy about a crowded bus.

That being said, for those commute times at WDW, give me the fastest, most efficient way to get from resort A to park B & I'm a pretty happy camper (shorter standing times are the best I can hope for). I'm not saying the busses are magical, but they are pretty efficient (in my experience, YMMV).

You could also walk. Not a very customer-friendly solution, however.
Actually, in many places on property, you can't. At least not easily. Very few of the roadways have sidewalks & I sort of get the feeling Disney would prefer that you didn't walk from point A to point B. They did finally put in a walkway from the Boardwalk to the Studios, but I recall it being a big deal when it opened. I also got the impression that Disney only put the walkway in because guests were walking in out of bounds areas because they were frustrated in *not* being able to walk the relative short distance between the two points.

Sarangel
 
This is from a post I made back in November... I've slightly modified it to reflect current changes.


I keep throwing out terms like "MOD" and "Flex Dispatch"... and I know a lot of y'all might not be too familiar with them and how Disney Transport works, so I thought I'd explain them in greater detail.

Unlike many transit authorities that some of you might be familiar with, with little exception, Disney Transport does not use Fixed Routes. Because of our unique guest traffic flow, much of Disney Transport is done dynamically. As such... things can vary throughout the day.

Disney Transport is divided into 6 Hubs, or what we call Zones:

Zone 1: Transportation/Ticket Center
Zone 2: Magic Kingdom
Zone 3: Epcot
Zone 4: Disney-MGM Studios
Zone 5: Downtown Disney
Zone 6: Disney's Animal Kingdom

Opening drivers will be assigned a resort area, and a zone to pick up for. Busses will be staggered so that the opening drivers will pick up approx every 15 minutes. For example, I might be assigned to go through the All-Stars, and pick up for Zone 2... this would mean that I'd pick up anyone going for breakfast (or Early Entry) at the Magic Kingdom, Contemporary, Polynesian, Grand Floridian, Wilderness Lodge, or Fort Wilderness.

Starting at 8:00am, we start our Magic On Demand. This is where things sometimes get a bit confusing, so I'll try and explain it the best I can. (It's important to note that Zone 1 and Zone 5 do not participate in MOD... more on Zone 5 later.)

Each Zone has a staging area where the busses all report to. At the Staging Area is a Dispatcher (Field X). Staging areas are as follows:

Zone 2: Stages out of the Magic Kingdom bus load zone, South Loop. Zone 2 covers Contemporary, Polynesian, Grand Floridian, Wilderness Lodge, and Fort Wilderness

Zone 3: Stages out of a parking lot between Riverside and French Quarter. Covers all of Port Orleans. Also has a dispatcher at Epcot itself.

Zone 4: Stages out of the Studios Charter Bus parking lot. Covers Swan, Dolphin, Yacht, Beach, Boardwalk, and Caribbean Beach.

Zone 6: Stages out of a parking lot between Sports and Music. Covers All-Star Sports, Music and Movies. Also has a dispatcher at DAK itself.

It's important to note that Coronado Springs, Old Key West, and Animal Kingdom Lodge do not participate in MOD. The reason for this is that they typically do not have the demand that MOD was created for. These resorts are Flexed all day long. More on Flex later on. Coronado Springs was added to MOD when Caribbean Beach shut down due to the added guest traffic, however, when CBR reopened, it was moved back to Flex.

This is basically how it works. Busses are staged at their appropriate staging areas, and are dispatched to their home resorts to pick up for all four theme parks. If they get dispatched to another zone, they drop off at that zone, and then get reassigned from that end back to their home zone.

For example:

Bus 4805 belongs to Zone 3. He gets dispatched to pick up at French Quarter for the Magic Kingdom. When he gets to the Magic Kingdom, instead of deadheading (running empty) back to Zone 3 staging, he gets dispatched to pick up Wilderness Lodge/Fort Wilderness for Epcot. Once at Epcot, he then returns to Zone 3 Staging, and starts the process all over again.

Magic On Demand offers greater utilization of our busses by eliminating deadhead runs. Busses are full on both journeys. This system is highly flexible, and allows our drivers to better serve our guests.

It is important to note that although this system is influenced by guest demand, it is not driven solely by demand. Busses are dispatched at regular intervals by the Field X Dispatcher, and depending on demand, are instructed to go different routes. If there is an increased demand in a particular area, the dispatcher will increase frequency, or possibly send two busses at once.

Another note... Morning routes for the MK are typically as follows:
Contemporary & Polynesian
Wilderness Lodge & Grand Floridian
Fort Wilderness

Morning routes for Epcot Resorts
Swan, Dolphin, & (Boardwalk)
Yacht, Beach, & (Boardwalk)
(Boardwalk)

Between 10:30-11:30, the Zones transition into FIDS, or Flexible Independent Dispatching System. (We call it Flex Dispatch for short.) No longer are busses shared between the Zones.

In the past, we used to use fixed routes for our busses. Each resort area would have 2-4 busses on that specific route, and they would just go around in circles, with pre-assigned dispatching times based on a set cycle time.

For example, if I was at the MK doing the Riverside #2 bus, my times out of the MK might be 1:00, 1:36, 2:12, 2:48, and so on. I would be given 36 minutes to do my route. Now, some days, I'd come back to the MK with 10 minutes to spare, and I'd just sit there for that time, waiting for my time out. Other days, I might encounter a delay, or something random happens, and I end up running 5 minutes late.

Another example... I might get assigned the 4:12 Riverside run out of the MK. That is now my dedicated route. I do that run, and arrive back at the MK at 4:28... The next Riverside dispatch is at 4:38... and if I were on the old style routes, I'd hang out for ten minutes. However, we have a 4:30 French Quarter run. So, now I become the 4:30 French Quarter bus... and another bus that arrives at 4:35 becomes the 4:38 Riverside bus. The same dispatch times exist.. the only difference is that different busses handle them.


With Flex Dispatch, the dispatch times are still there, in a manner of speaking... However, no bus is assigned to any fixed route. As the bus approaches the hub, the driver calls in for a dispatch. The Dispatcher uses a portable tablet PC that selects the next dispatch. By doing this, we eliminate the wasted hold time, and put it to use. It also compensates for any delays that a driver might encounter. One special benefit... if a bus needs to be taken out of service, it no longer creates a gap in service. The Tablet PC's allow for special dispatches as well, so if there is a 200 person group that all wants to go back to the All-Stars, we can handle it. It should also be noted that the Tablet PC's have the capability to generate a new set of dispatch times based on how many busses are running, and how the demand is.

Typically Flex will run from 11:00am, until park closing. At that time, the various hubs will switch to Float Mode for the exit. Floating is just when the dispatcher sends busses to wherever they are needed most. If a load zone is light, they will tell the driver to hold at that load zone for 5-10 mins, or until full. For heavy load zones like the All-Stars, they might send two busses to double load.


A few notes:
Downtown Disney operates with Flex Dispatch all day long.

Fort Wilderness Internal busses, and TTC busses operate via fixed routes. These are the only busses that are on fixed routes.

Okay, I think I got everything there... if you have any questions, or desire clarification, please feel free to let me know.
 
Maybe this might help. It seems one of the problems with buses are that they are using the same roads as general traffic. Perhaps dedicated bus lanes/roads could be built to get the buses separated from congestion. This would make sense on long runs. Construction would be the major cost (and a lot cheaper than monorail structure). Maintenance should be low considering there wouldn't be weather and high traffic damage.

And you have flexibility. Also ideal for the BRT.
 
Tyler - thanks for the detail. It is interesting to see the behind the scenes workings. Keep posting over here - as you can tell, we have a lot of "fun" ;).
 











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