DEBATE: Disney Monorails. Magical - Yes. But Effective?

[raidermatt]

I think this is quite an assumption.

Its my impression that this has actually been discussed publically by Disney. If nobody else remembers it that way, I'll back off my statement as I agree it would be too much of an assumption.

 

[BRERALEX]

maybe DTD should have the TTC and there is room over there......knock down disneyquest HAHAHAHA i kill me.

a line goes from the d.t.d.t.t.c. (wow) a line goes to OKw and PO and back

another line goes to MGM to AK

another line goes to Epcot

another line goes to Mk

a line is built from epcot to AK

a line is built from Ak to mk

It's already too many lines too many transfers. under the current system whats the biggest problem.....the boardwalk? maybe there should just be a baby express monorail from the boardwalk to DTD instead of having to catch a bus back to dtd you take an express monorail and then you catch a bus.

you know what my biggest problem is gonna be pickin the right monorail when i come out of a club drunk. im going to end up in queens.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

DK - I hear you on the transfer thing. I have 2 little guys and the strollers are a pain...

My "plan" was just a hypothetical idea. Yeah, it does seem a bit much with all the transfers, but there is potential. Let me answer your points.

1. Yes you still have to take a bus, but it is a shorter distance and hopefully at more frequent intervals.

2. Connections are required, but the beauty of it is that the process is always the same no matter where you want to go on WDW property... Bus, local hub, central hub to park - reverse the process to get back to your hotel (or any hotel of your choice...).

3. Will people stop driving? Hard to say, but if it becomes easier, quicker, and simpler to get anywhere on WDW property using the same process, it might do the trick. Plus, you always take a monorail to a park....

Or, you could really up the ante and eliminate parking at the parks (save for handicap, etc...) and have ALL parking located at the central hub.

I'll send you a PM about the firm thing....

 

[BRERALEX]

a central hub between epcot and mk of course would be awesome. open 22 hours a day to service me coming out of PI.

my central hub would have 4 lines.

1. to mk

2. epcot to mgm

3. AK

4. dtd

Estimates put the monorail expansion price tag around $1 Billion.

thats from the intercot website in an article about monorail expansion nixed for the bigger bus system. I really would rather have 1 billion or part of put into expanding AK and bulldozing CA
and refurbishing everything in need of refurbishment

 

[Another Voice]

The "rumored" once and cancelled master plan:

The main line would extend the MK-Epcot beam down to the Disney/MG Studios and to the Animal Kingdom. Stations at Epcot and the Studios would be built allowing for guests to travel both north and south. By reconfiguring the Magic Kingdom Express Line to be part of this beam, there would have been no need to transfer trains when traveling between any of the parks.

Associated with the center line would be regional lines – just as the Magic Kingdom Resort line loops around the Seven Seas Lagoon and connects those resorts to the TTC. Epcot would be the central station for an extension to Downtown Disney and the Hotel Plaza. Also considered was a centralized parking facility for day guests. Since the roadways around Epcot can handle the traffic, off property guests could park in a new lot and "park hop" across the property using monorails instead of driving from one lot to another. This central parking plan may/might/could have been built further south, nearer to I-4 and US 192 to provide better highway access.

Monorails are by far the most efficient means of transporting guests on property. Any kind of rail system – heavy, light, monorail or subway – works best when moving large volumes of people between areas of high concentration on a predictable schedule: something like an urban rush hour or several theme parks. Busses, even slightly cheesy touristy open air kinds, work best on low demand, low density areas because they can uses existing roadways where cars still car the bulk of the traffic. These areas could have included moving people between resorts, within resorts, or from resorts to centralized stations.

All of these issues are well known within the company and there have been several attempts over the years to correct the situation. Some came very, very close to being built. But restoring the transportation system on property doesn't produce big enough dollars in an on a simple spreadhseet enough for a certain executive. It's far easier to make the guests deal with the problem ("please allow one hour to travel to your destination") then it is to create a real solution.

P.S. – the monorail system wasn't nixed in favor of a "bigger bus" system. The whole "Magic on Demand" fiasco was an attempt to reduce the size of the fleet, not expand it.

 

[BRERALEX]

P.S. – the monorail system wasn't nixed in favor of a "bigger bus" system.

oooops my bad your right wrote that too fast.

monorails are ahhh ok. theone at newark airport is downright depressing cause your passing by the ANheiser busch building and two sucky towns, newark and elizabeth.

themeing themeing themeing

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Especially the one at the mall outside Detroit

You have been out of the Metro Detroit area for some time, eh Scoop?

The monorail you're talking about was taken out of service (I mean completely dismantled) in the early to mid-90's....

 

[Another Voice]

Anything that cruises up and down Hollywood Blvd. hauling tourists is by the definition "cheesy".

The same goes for hearses used as tour busses, Humvees stretched out into limos and any wheeled vehicle which contains a working hot tub.

 

[BRERALEX]

I just can't wait to see the big concrete pillars cut through the Boardwalk...

exactly. it would be too much too many lines too opposing to the beauty of the resorts and the overall atmosphere. my university can't even get a parking deck because it would be too much of an eyesore. So I couldnt see it possible for them to build so many new routes that it wouldnt interfere with the overall themeing.

ahh maybe they should just cut big holes into the swan and dolphin and run the track through there and to boardwalk and link it all up. it be gross.

 

[wdw4us2]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
For this reason I believe Disney would be better served by a subway system, rather than monorails. But again you have to consider whether that would be any more efficient than the current WDW transportation systems.

While I like this idea, and it would certainly take care of the concerns of the "ugly pillars" from the monorail, this would not be a reality in Florida.

Anytime you dig underground in Florida, you run into water in a very short distance. Also, the ground is mostly sand, not soil. This is one of the reasons the Utilidor under the MK is actually the ground floor and the park is the second floor. I don't see how they could build an underground subway without it costing a fortune, if it could be done at all.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

Wondering why some type of light rail couldn't be put in to handle the Epcot/MGM/DTD loop with stops at hotels. It'd be easy to theme it. Such a loop would be cost justified if you can move people from hotels to profit centers. One thing that stops me from going to either Boardwalk or DTD at night is the sheer amount of time spent in transit or worse yet...waiting for a bus a 1AM.

 

[raidermatt]

Are the ugly pillars a major source of complaint from guests at the GF, Poly and CR?

Perhaps, just perhaps, there is a route that would not take it down the middle of the BW?

But, as Mr. Voice alluded to, monorails are most effective during peak people moving times. However, that only happens a few times per day (probably just opening and closing).

So it would benefit large portions of guests....after all, that's why they call them peaks, right?

In the end though, I think we all agree that there is no longer anything inherently novel about a monorail. So, with that novelty gone from when they were first introduced, the question of efficiency comes into the forefront.

All I can say is that you are too quick to discount the intangible benefits of the Monorail. Novel or not, people like it. They like the views from the elevated track, they like seeing it whiz by, and they like going through the CR. If Monorail expansion is done with these things in mind, it will continue to have appeal. (That does NOT mean I am discounting any other alternative form of transportation)

You know, we have BART here in the Bay Area, but you can't compare a BART experience that consists of the smell of urine and views of the Projects with a Monorail experience in WDW. I've yet to have to step over a sleeping hobo to get off of a WDW Monorail.

 

[hopemax]

Does anyone know anything about http://www.skytran.net/?

I believe that Personalized Rapid Transit is the future, but I don't know how viable it is right now and in the swamps of Florida (I really can't believe you guys are talking subways in Florida!).

So I answer my own question, kinda. Sample project:

http://www.skytran.net/03economics/s10.htm

 

[Another Voice]

"I just can't wait to see the big concrete pillars cut through the Boardwalk..."

You're right - dirty overcrowded busses spewing black smoke across the vast plains of asphalt are much more appealing.

Let's just settle on "magical" open air donkey carts for those that want it. The rest of us will simply avoid going to WDW.

 

[airlarry!]

I just want all the people who think monorails, even with the allegedly 'big ugly concrete pilings', are inherently less magical than buses to speak up so we can 'count the noses.'

It makes sense to AT THE VERY LEAST put in a monorail to the DTD area. I can't believe Disney has never done it yet. I know many people, many people who don't want to drive out there, but would gladly hop on a monorail out the old village to shop and be entertained.

 

[Barb]

All I can say is that you are too quick to discount the intangible benefits of the Monorail. Novel or not, people like it. They like the views from the elevated track, they like seeing it whiz by, and they like going through the CR. If Monorail expansion is done with these things in mind, it will continue to have appeal.

I agree. I can't help but smile when we're driving up to the Magic Kingdom gate and the monorail goes whizzing by. Before we bought into DVC, my husband would insist we only stay at the monorail resorts. While I can't debate the pros and cons of the reality of the monorail, I can tell you that all the things raidermatt stated are an important part of our WDW trip.
Adding any sort of efficient transportation system can only be a plus. When the buses become a problem, people tend to drive their own cars from park to park. Why wouldn't they want to make getting from one place to another easier for their guests?

 

[d-r]

I want to say that I was thinking exactly what HOPEMAX said - in terms of both a subway in the high water table, and in the implementation of sky-tran like system. I think about this every once in a while, and it seems to me that is the way to go!

DR

 

[raidermatt]

Skytran is an example of the kind of thing that WDW should consider.

As I said, it doesn't HAVE to be a Monorail expansion.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

WOW!! What a thread!! It’s very hard to play catch-up with something this unwieldy. But that never stopped me before!!

My first thought, while reading it the first time was all the negative views of monorails. It is a position I do not understand. Some salient samples:

Originally posted by Mr. J. Cricket
Honestly, I think the monorails are only perceived as magical because they are Disney monorails. I've ridden other things like them and sorry, but they were just like riding a city bus, but slower.

Originally posted by thedscoop
Multiple concrete lines with all the required pillars and stations throughout WDW would just look bad and, unlike some other types of transportation are pretty permanent.

Originally posted by thedscoop
Well if monorails have become passe' for Fairlane Center in Dearborn, Michigan, then by all means, Disney needs more...

I just can't wait to see the big concrete pillars cut through the Boardwalk...

I really can’t see for the life of me how some obscure (and if you don’t happen to live in that city it is obscure) monorail system has anything whatsoever to do with Disney’s monorail system! Maybe someone can explain it to me.

And I really want to know, especially from Scoop since he seems to head the charge on this issue, if you can really, honestly, truly and from the bottom of your magical heart, tell me you find a bus more “Disney” that the monorail?

The second thought that struck me was from BRERALEX when he said:

I think there just isn't an ideal transportation system for the way WDW is spread out

This, of course, is in the wrong thread. It should be included in the infrastructure thread (but lord knows if I’ll ever have time for that one with the rate Mr. Kidds brings up new topics!!!). It is EXACTLY what I meant by the term ‘haphazard’ with little or no foresight. Thank you for summing it perfectly and understanding, on the most basic level, the meaning of it all!!!

Third thought. I cut out and saved all those zany references to subways. It was a little tough through the tears of laughter, but I managed. I got all the way up to wdw4us2 and decided to scraps all the inane references in favor of repeating this little gem of wisdom!

Anytime you dig underground in Florida, you run into water in a very short distance. Also, the ground is mostly sand, not soil. This is one of the reasons the Utilidor under the MK is actually the ground floor and the park is the second floor. I don't see how they could build an underground subway without it costing a fortune, if it could be done at all.

Thank you wdw4us2!! You literally took the words out of my mouth!!!

An hybrid double-decker well-themed bus with an open-air second deck would be every bit as magical to me (if not more) for traveling throughout WDW than a monorail…

… Imagine how much fun it would be to travel from your resort to MK on a sunny day on the open air level of a double decker bus that does not spew out any nasty emissions.

Scoop, Scoop, Scoop. What am I goin’ do with you?? Do you really think an open air double decker bus would fly in June, July or August?! Come on!! You’re going to cut capacity in half for more than half the time!! Not to mention the other issues that have been brought up by other posters! I’ll grant you that it is ‘Rockwell’, as it paints a pretty Walt type picture. But like most of his depictions of ‘normal’ life, it just doesn’t work in the real world!!

Last thought (hey!! Who was it that said hurray!??) It is of course Raidermatt!! WOW! When I’m catching up I sometimes start formulating responses as I’m reading though the thread the first time. Every time I have a thought on a subject or think of some pithy remark, Sir Matt’s been there – done that!!! It pleases me no end!!!! But at the same time it’s a bit frustrating!! He keeps stealing all the good bits!!!! Such as:

For instance, the quickest route is not ALWAYS going to be the most desirable for WDW guests. Most will sacrifice a few minutes in speed if the experience is upgraded. This dynamic rarely comes into play in transportation systems designed to deal with work commutes.

And!

What I can say is that this issues of grey colored monorail lines all over the place can be tossed out immediately. They are considered a bonus by the vast majority of guests who stay at resorts that they are serviced by, and just about everyone of us gets at least a bit of enjoyment at watching a monorail glide by.

And then there’s the exchange with Mr. Kidds, with Sir Matt taking the first quote! (double quote alert!)

Disney has indeed worked out some expansion plans, and likely would have implemented them were it not for a reluctance to come up with the up-front capital.

I think this is quite an assumption. Even before ME tightened the purse strings there were probably lots of plans that were conceptualized and put to paper but didn't happen for a variety of reasons. You've been riding shotgun with Baron too long and all you can see as motivation for anything is $$$$

OK, Mr. Kidds!! Take it back!! You are WRONG!!! Plain and simple!

There were probably NOT lots of plans that were conceptualized and put to paper but didn't happen for a variety of reasons.

If you think about it Ei$ner came in relatively shortly after EPCOT. And try as I might I can’t think where those plans would have had them build a monorail! All the resorts (save the Golf Resort, which was never part of the plan) and ALL the theme parks were connected by monorail! It is Ei$ner that did away with that “Standard”!!!!

One more dangling thought:

The problem is then that you have a system designed for peak times operating during a day which most of the time is non-peak.

Yeah! Kind of like running empty buses back and forth between resorts at three in the afternoon, or at any time opposite of the rush! VERY EFFIECIENT INDEED!!!!

Whew!!!! I’m done!! I'm going back to read the link provided by Hopemax. I'm sure I will like it!! She 'Gets It'!!!

 

[airlarry!]

Is this Skytran thing for real?

My only beef with it...it seems to be only for 1 or 2 people. If it had capacity for 5-6 people, then I would seriously go nuts for it. It Looks Cool!