David's Vacation Club Rentals

[Robo-Daddy 3000]

But again, people were going to Disey way before they could rent DVC, those that could not afford to stay onsite, stayed (and continue to stay) offsite. Disney still sells them park tickets, meals and souvenirs, regardless of where they are staying. So that in itself is not a reason for them to care if they stay in a rented DVC unit or offsite. And certainly not a reason for your suggestion that that is the reason DVC has allowed David to operate.

I don't know what percentage of renters end up buying after they rent. I would imagine some do. It seems like it could be a valid reason to allow him to operate for whatever small numbers of new buyers it might be bringing in. If not that then what reason do you think it is that DVC has allowed David to operate?

In fact, in a way, his service is in competition with Disney, as any units not reserved by DVCerss are turned over to Disney for cash room profits at 60 days.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

 

[Robo-Daddy 3000]

Small correction. It is not 'their' product. It is 'your' product, managed my them. You bought and paid for 'your' product and upkeep it with the dues and fees that you pay.

Managed by them according to their rules.

Renting Vacation Points Restriction

Use of the Vacation homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes...is expressly prohibited.

A Member who maintains a web site offering rental of Vacation points is clearly renting for commercial purposes


Are you operating in violation of the above rule? I believe that you are. What do you believe, David?

It is no different than if you had a set unit and time each year. If you did not attend during your set time, your unit would remain empty. Should the people you bought the unit from prosper on your misfortune? With you receiving nothing? Would you feel obligated to contact them and tell them to go ahead and use your unit for their own windfall?

I understand that you are bringing two parties together for their own mutual benefit. And you are being compensated with your own bit of windfall.

I am not looking to debate my service with you. It is what it is. I have helped bring 1000s of guests and 100s of members together for the mutual benefit of all.

And to your credit everyone who has posted here has said that you provided them with excellent service and I think that most if not all said that they would use your service again.

I've only posted this because your passionate position puzzles me. I am not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do, just curious as to what the motivation behind the emotions are.


David

--

You are using MS to run your business. I pay for MS through my dues- my product-to make reservations for myself. You use MS as an essential component in running your business. How many times a day are you or the people who work for you calling MS? I don't want my dues being used to help run your business.

 

[Chuck S]

I don't know what percentage of renters end up buying after they rent. I would imagine some do. It seems like it could be a valid reason to allow him to operate for whatever small numbers of new buyers it might be bringing in. If not that then what reason do you think it is that DVC has allowed David to operate?

Three possible reasons...it isn't an illegal business under law, it is not based in the US, and the current way he operates is not, in itself, prohibited under DVC rules. DVC did change the ability to add an associate to an unlimited number of memberships, enforced the one transfer per membership per year clause, and gave a vague definition of commercial renting of 20 or more rentals per year.

There are certainly more rules that DVC could could create to thwart such an operation, but would implementing those rules also have detrimental effect on the membership as a whole. Sometimes these things fall under "be careful what you wish for...."

I would suggest that the best way to make your point is to contact DVC directly, probably through an old fashioned mailed letter, and voice your concerns over the use of MS time. Put the ball in their court, and let them do what they deem best...that is why we pay our dues.

 

[mdinme]

Wow - I dont see how David's business is hurting anyone...heaven forbid as owners we have the option to have someone else handle our rental coordination! Clearly we are allowed to rent out a reservation, just not commercially, so I dont see how any rules are being violated here.

We are new owners and have not had to use David for either side of a transaction, but I have already recommended his site to friends who are interested in staying in a DVC unit vs. a CRO room and will definitely consider using him should we ever be in that position!

Well how many points does he own and when does it become an issue for others. If he owns 10,000 points hes grabbing a large share and hes selling them for $13 a point (way too high) which means the price to rent may be affected for others. IT may not be aproblem at this point but if DVC doesn't have some sort of cap on how many points a person can own or sell it could become a simple case of cornering the market...

I pm'd him a few months ago and asked how much he charged per point. When he said $13 I said "bye."

I'm willing to do a little work to get points at $10 and occasionally less. Trust could be an issue but I think the vets here will tell you they only know of one or two incidents and both were preventable.

On the other hand... I'd hate to have Daddio not be able to take care of his family if this is truly his gig.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

I've questioned why he is allowed to maintain a website for the sole purpose of renting out points when it seems to me to be against DVC's own rules.

This seemed to go far beyond "questioning"

Peronally, I would like to see Disney crack down on his "business" and put him out of business.

Meanwhile my dues (and yours) go towards funding MS which he uses to make a profit for himself.

Why do I care if he's making a profit? All I care about is my overall level of dues. Whether an owner uses their points to send Aunt Gertrude on vacation, or has David rent them out it still takes MS to process the points. And I'll bet anything David can use the points quicker and more efficiently (i.e. *less* cost to us) than if the owner used them himself.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

I would suggest that the best way to make your point is to contact DVC directly, probably through an old fashioned mailed letter, and voice your concerns over the use of MS time.

Before he does that, he should think a little more about his concern.

Whether David calls, or somebody else calls, MS is going to get involved utilizing the points. If he's made thousands of calls, he probably can do what needs to be done much more efficiently than if others called.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

Why would Disney care if DVC rooms are filled?

Perhaps - and I know many here think this is crazy talk - DVC actually cares about helping members. An owner who gets paid something for her points rather than having them go to waste is a happy owner.

 

[RobDoc]

Well how many points does he own and when does it become an issue for others. If he owns 10,000 points hes grabbing a large share and hes selling them for $13 a point (way too high) which means the price to rent may be affected for others. IT may not be aproblem at this point but if DVC doesn't have some sort of cap on how many points a person can own or sell it could become a simple case of cornering the market...

He owns no where near 10,000 points and is well below the current ownership limits placed by DVC. What ANY member charges to rent is up to that member - including you and Daddio. All aspects of his business are presently in full compliance with all DVC rules and policies. Those suggesting otherwise should definitely consider forcing DVC to enforce any policies you feel are being violated (... and that is DVC's responsibility to it's members) and to suggest any changes you feel should be made to those policies. Most of the rentals accomplished thru Daddio's service are not made using his own points - he is merely finding renters for those members interested in renting. He is providing a service to those members.

I pm'd him a few months ago and asked how much he charged per point. When he said $13 I said "bye."

That is exactly your prerogative - just as it's every member's prerogative to charge whatever they want. There are certainly many on the Rent/Trade Board willing to accept less - and some who will only accept even more than that. It is up to the parties involved to agree on the price. If it's too high - or too low - feel free to decline.

I'm willing to do a little work to get points at $10 and occasionally less. Trust could be an issue but I think the vets here will tell you they only know of one or two incidents and both were preventable.

Are you aware that members who rent their points via Daddio's service usually get $10 per point from him (unless they are distressed points nearing expiration) without the need to do anything except call MS to make the reservation?

 

[RobDoc]

True. But DVC/MS knows what is going on here. They know about his "service" and they choose to allow his "service" to continue because it helps fill rooms. Like I said in this thread earlier on:

From page 13 of the 2009 Vacation Planner:

Renting Vacation Points Restriction

Use of the Vacation homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes...is expressly prohibited.

A Member who maintains a web site offering rental of Vacation points is clearly renting for commercial purposes.

Is the bolded sentence above from the 2009 Planner - or is that your own interpretation of the DVC policy? If you assert that maintaining a website for renting is not allowed, I will beg to differ with your opinion and interpretation since the DIS has maintained such a website since 1998 within full view of DVC. They are well aware of our site and I know that many MS reps have even referred DVC members to the DIS ... and to Daddio's site http://dvcrequest.com/ . A number of DVC Guides have also referred members to both sites when asked if DVC will assist with rentals.

If sites like the DIS and dvcrequest violate DVC policy, should Disney have stepped in by now? DVC does have the responsibility to it's membership to enforce all of it's policies. If members feel they are not upholding the policies, members should force them to do so.

 

[E&K's Dad]

You are using MS to run your business. I pay for MS through my dues- my product-to make reservations for myself. You use MS as an essential component in running your business. How many times a day are you or the people who work for you calling MS? I don't want my dues being used to help run your business.

Just my two cents. . .

Rob- Remember that those MS Cast Members are also compensated by the dues being paid by the members who are choosing to rent their points through David not just yours. How about we look at it this way. . .your dues can pay to feed the Animals at the AKL and the rest of ours can go to pay MS for booking reservations.

I have never used David's service because I am a new member and am choosing to use my points, however, I think that David's business provides us, as owners with more options that in the long run add value to our ownership interest. If DVC MS offered us the option to rent or trade our points for cash in the way that David does, I am sure many people would choose to use MS directly rather than using David(no offense David). But until that time David is an option and from what it sounds like he's a pretty good option to use.

 

[a742246]

Before I bought into DVC I rented points. If not for renting those points I would not have bought in. The few thousand that we spend at Disney each year would not have gone into Disney's pocket if not for renting those first points. I am sure there are many people like me out there.

So my final words to David is "Good for you".

 

[Robo-Daddy 3000]

Three possible reasons...it isn't an illegal business under law, it is not based in the US, and the current way he operates is not, in itself, prohibited under DVC rules. DVC did change the ability to add an associate to an unlimited number of memberships, enforced the one transfer per membership per year clause, and gave a vague definition of commercial renting of 20 or more rentals per year.

There are certainly more rules that DVC could could create to thwart such an operation, but would implementing those rules also have detrimental effect on the membership as a whole. Sometimes these things fall under "be careful what you wish for...."

I would suggest that the best way to make your point is to contact DVC directly, probably through an old fashioned mailed letter, and voice your concerns over the use of MS time. Put the ball in their court, and let them do what they deem best...that is why we pay our dues.

Thanks for clarifying the situation for me. As per your suggestion, I will contact MS.

 

[Robo-Daddy 3000]

Is the bolded sentence above from the 2009 Planner - or is that your own interpretation of the DVC policy?.

On page 13 of the 2009 planner:

Use of the Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purpose other than described is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

Example: A Member who maintains a web site offering rental of Vacation is clearly renting for commercial purposes;



Doc, that is what it says in the planner. Those are not my words. The bolded words above are the words that DVC included in the planner.

DVC does have the responsibility to it's membership to enforce all of it's policies. If members feel they are not upholding the policies, members should force them to do so.

I agree!

 

[toniosmom]

I've only been a member for two short years and have not yet needed to rent any of my points. However, I plan to call David to do that for me, if the situation should arise. I am very concerned that I would be one of that small percentage of owners who had a problem with a potential renter and I just don't want to deal with that.

As other posters have stated, I think many renters are future DVC members who are testing the waters. That certainly can't hurt my membership. The more members, the more resorts Disney will be building, further expanding my vacation destination potential.

So, David, I wish you all the best and much success. I hope that you are around if I should ever need your service.

 

[RobDoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WebmasterDoc View Post
DVC does have the responsibility to it's membership to enforce all of it's policies. If members feel they are not upholding the policies, members should force them to do so.

I agree!

What have you done to force DVC to act?

Your original post did not mention that the DVC Planner used that as an example - thus the question. Since it was used only as an illustration, I would assign different weight to the statement and accept that it would need to be enforced on a case-by-case basis. Does dvcrequest.com hold itself out as a member? If so, there could be some basis from the example used - but in this situation, dvcrequest.com is not renting points as a member, they are simply brokering rentals for other members, just as the DIS DVC Rent/Trade Board serves as a medium for members to find potential renters for members of our DVC community.

If anyone feels strongly that DVC is not acting in the best interest of it's membership by upholding stated policies, it could be necessary to seek the action of a court to force such action. I would be very cautious in applying personal bias in viewing many of the vague policies in the DVC POS. I believe that most of those policies are intentionally worded to mainly protect DVC itself and not really designed as the rigid formula some would proscribe.

DVC has been very cautious over the years about stating a firm policy to define "commercial activity". They have issued some "guidelines" (like a 20 reservation limit), but even those have not appeared in the POS. The most recent POS modifications included the restrictions limiting individuals to be listed on a maximum of 4 different memberships as Associate Members - but no clear definition of "commercial" was included in that revision. Changes to the number of transfers allowed annually have occurred twice (the original policy was one per Use Year - subsequent changes allowed multiple transfers and then a return to the one-per-Use-Year original policy). Even the maximum number of points allowed for owners has been increased over time - but never any clear definition for "commercial activity".

It seems that members ourselves have a varying opinion about such a definition, but only DVC can actually define that.

It may be like art, where one may not know what constitutes good art but do know what they like.

Ahh, the eye of the beholder!

 

[Chuck S]

Thanks for clarifying the situation for me. As per your suggestion, I will contact MS.

To clarify:

Every member with any specific concerns should contact Member Services or Member Satisfaction. I certainly did when they removed the glassware form studios, even though they had a legitimate reason (sanitation) for doing so. Sanitation is still a legitimate concern, I urge everyone to wash glassware before use, even though it may look clean.

But as far as David's site, I don't have a problem with it, as members often make the same number of calls to MS, they need to call and check availability for their renters, whether David does it or the renting member does it.

If DVC does decide to make rules that would thwart such a practice, those rules could have a very negative effect on the average DVCers. For instance, they could prohibit members from changing names on reservations...meaning if you decide after a reservation is made to add a relative to your traveling party, you'd have to cancel and rebook the reservations...possibly losing the reservation to the next person on the waitlist. Or they could institute a rule that says no multiple reservations for the same time frame as a way of limiting a members ability to rent out multiple units during a busy time...but that would also mean an owner couldn't book multiple rooms for friends/family traveling together. So again, it boils down to be careful what you with for...and the steps that may be taken to satisfy your goal.

 

[mikeandkarla]

I don't get the problem with David's business. It seems as if he is selling his service, renting other DVC members points. I see this as a benefit to all DVC members as a potential way to unload some points(if necessary) with very little time spent.

 

[NewDCLGuy]

As per your suggestion, I will contact MS.

Is it really appropriate to put a "good vibes" smiley face after your plans to try and destroy a business that provides a great service to your fellow DVC members?

And if you really cared about your dues and my dues, would you waste MS's time with this call? I gotta believe Disney knows what is going on and has already decided to tolerate it. You think your call is going to change their mind?

And, let's just supposed you do change their mind, what then? Sure, you get to brag to your family how you destroyed a man's business, but how do you expect Disney to shut him down? They can't just snap their fingers and magically put him out of work. They would have to implement rules that make it difficult for him to continue.

And if it makes his life more difficult, it makes your life more difficult, and my life more difficult, and every other member's life more difficult. Not that I think Disney will listen to you, but if they did, is it really worth inconveniencing every DVC owner just so, uh, I forget, other than the thrill of destroying a business, what do you get out of this again?

 

[nunzia]

As I said in the last post that debated David's business, I really don't have any problem with it as DVC knows about it and allows it (alhough I would not be surprised if he is the main reason the associate rule was changed) I did not like the idea of having someone on my contract, so glad that's gone. I don't mind him being the broker, and I don't mind calling MS as long as it isn't multiple times for a reservation. If I ever need to rent points I'd consider using him. My big question...it was stated his business isn't based in the US..Where is it based? that surprised me.

 

[CarolMN]

I don't see how Disney could legally shut down David's business without stopping members from renting ther points period.

How is it different from what the resellers such as the Timeshare Store do? Think about it:

Members are allowed to resell their contracts. The broker finds a buyer and helps the buyer and seller complete the transaction. One of the the things the broker does for the member is contact Disney to get ROFR waived.

Members are allowed to rent their points. David finds the customer and helps complete the transaction. One of the things David does for the member is contact Disney to see if there is availability.

So the TSS brokers sales and David brokers rentals. Both are legal services.

Unless David is somehow violating Disney's copyright laws (doubt it), I see no legal basis for shutting down his website. Of course, if Disney adds additional restrictions on renting itself, it may no longer be a viable business and he'll shut it down himself.

Keep in mind that the individual owners / members who use his service are the only ones Disney can easily impact directly. For example, perhaps the "Associate Member" change was aimed at David, but it directly impacted only the individual owners. We members are the ones that now have the restriction!

As Chuck said, be very careful what you wish for - it will come back to bite YOU!