Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Dracula]

Update on my chargeback: Chase came back and approved the credit. I received my letter this afternoon. Dispute resolved, credit approved. Mind you my dispute was less than 1k, so I don't know if he even fought it. I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond. I did not have to send anything.

Thank you for the update. Unfortunately for David, if a significant number of renters pursue chargebacks rather than accept vouchers, and these chargebacks all get approved, it would be next to impossible to avoid bankruptcy.

Assuming the average booking horizon is 7.5 months, and the resorts would be closed for 2.5 months - this means 1/3 of David’s book of reservations would have been canceled. Since he only holds in cash ~25% of the funds paid by the renter (the money meant for the owners at check-in time), assuming 80% of renters file for chargebacks, basically all this money would be gone to reimburse renters.

A resort closure of 4 months would be certain bankruptcy. I would think David really really hopes the resorts would open really really soon, no matter what the parks do.

 

[disneypharm]

I would have definitely considered a voucher to save his business if he handled this mess better. His new contracts are so bad for owners and renters that there is no choice but chargebacks. I had several things cancelled (eg, shows, musicals, tickets etc..) because of this pandemic and I either donated the funds back to the nonprofit or small businesses or took the voucher, but after the way David's handled everything, I refuse to do business with them.

 

[dragonflymom]

I started 4/21....and he had two billing cycles to respond.

Does this mean David's has two billing cycles starting from 4/21 to respond, meaning he can still respond up through approximately end of June if he has not responded already? It would be interesting to know if David's had responded between 4/21 and 5/8, or whether Chase looked at it as fairly open-and-shut and decided in your favor.

 

[Disaseny]

Does this mean David's has two billing cycles starting from 4/21 to respond, meaning he can still respond up through approximately end of June if he has not responded already? It would be interesting to know if David's had responded between 4/21 and 5/8, or whether Chase looked at it as fairly open-and-shut and decided in your favor.

Yes, he had two billing cycles to respond. Not sure if he did and decided not to fight it or like you said Chase decided it was open and shut.

 

[Disaseny]

I would have definitely considered a voucher to save his business if he handled this mess better. His new contracts are so bad for owners and renters that there is no choice but chargebacks. I had several things cancelled (eg, shows, musicals, tickets etc..) because of this pandemic and I either donated the funds back to the nonprofit or small businesses or took the voucher, but after the way David's handled everything, I refuse to do business with them.

I was on the same thought on the vouchers until I saw the terms of the credit. I talked with a friend of mine who works with lots of terms and conditions daily, and they said no way would they accept them.

 

[izzy]

On the Cruise Critic website numerous people are doing chargebacks against Princess because of how long the refunds are taking. It was mentioned that when a chargeback is filed that the merchant is also hit with a chargeback fee by the bank. So, that’s even more money leaving David’s coffers. I really don’t see how he’s going to dig his business out of this overall mess. You can’t have both renters and owners mad at you for how the current situation is being handled as well as being distrustful of the new contract terms and conditions.

 

[3babiesmom]

I am a renter and my trip was scheduled for May 26-Jun 1. So the "voucher" David is offering, is that my only option?

I am perfectly happy with postponing my trip, I just don't want to lose all my money and David's is making me nervous.

 

[banzai75]

I am a renter and my trip was scheduled for May 26-Jun 1. So the "voucher" David is offering, is that my only option?

You can try a chargeback on your CC once your check in comes and the resort is still closed.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

While I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David. I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.

David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down. Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate. But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips. It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted. This is not to excuse David but it is reality. Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat. I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.

I don't see evil motive here. I agree with results and path to them.

 

[TheWheel]

While I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David. I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.

David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down. Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate. But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips. It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted. This is not to excuse David but it is reality. Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat. I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.

I don't see evil motive here. I agree with results and path to them.

I don't think most of us see evil here. I think what we do see is someone who through their own fault of not having properly designed contracts has essentially left both owners and renters believing (rightfully IMHO) they are due either refunds or final payments at check in date.
Poor contracts and all, I believe if managed differently we would have seen both renters and owners be much more willing to work with David's to get to an agreeable position. However, actions in the past few weeks have shown that they / he are much more concerned with their position than they are with either renters or owners. I think most renters and owners wish a positive solution for both sides and would be willing to do what they could within reason to help aid the other side even if they were to suffer some level of loss. What neither side appears to be interested in is watching both parties getting the short end of the stick while David tries to ensure he can still dock his yacht.
The flip flopping and attempts to change the rules as he goes along while trying to maximize his profits and further minimize his risks on the backs of both parties suggests he will be very lucky to come out of this with the business intact which creates further risk and stress to renters and owners alike. So unsurprisingly people believe he should be accountable for that.

 

[lawboy2001]

Wouldn't you have started earlier than April 21st? Isn't a billing cycle approximately 30 days?

He had 2 billing cycles to respond. He obviously responded much sooner.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Here is where I disagree. There are clear lines of change in what David responded with. My point is that the original response was predictable and fit with the the world David and the rest of knew. I am new here myself but I don't recall seeing posts on the issues with David's contracts pre C19. Pretty much everyone seemed ok with David outside his large cut. Naturally the first response was WAIT! And clearly David was overwhelmed with nowhere near the people to respond much less resolves issues. So communications were a giant issue. Then the issues with the contract that became clear with 20-20 hind sight came into view. AND after that came the 'owners shut down the resort and caused the problem' and 'contract impossibility'.

Each of these hind sight times (paradyms) came with different solutions and answer from David. The facts changed dramatically from mid March to April to today. It is easy to say flip flop. reality is that as facts change and reality emerges responses have to change as well. Disney closing for 2 weeks and public announcements that it was going to be open by April 1 or Easter for sure mattered. The response for a 2 week shut down and a 2.5 month shuts are completely different.

Finally and without taking a side you can claim David is soley responsible for the contract issues. Yet you have a motive to take this position don't you? For how many years and how many hundreds of thousands of points was the contract fine and not objected to?

I don't think most of us see evil here. I think what we do see is someone who through their own fault of not having properly designed contracts has essentially left both owners and renters believing (rightfully IMHO) they are due either refunds or final payments at check in date.
Poor contracts and all, I believe if managed differently we would have seen both renters and owners be much more willing to work with David's to get to an agreeable position. However, actions in the past few weeks have shown that they / he are much more concerned with their position than they are with either renters or owners. I think most renters and owners wish a positive solution for both sides and would be willing to do what they could within reason to help aid the other side even if they were to suffer some level of loss. What neither side appears to be interested in is watching both parties getting the short end of the stick while David tries to ensure he can still dock his yacht.
The flip flopping and attempts to change the rules as he goes along while trying to maximize his profits and further minimize his risks on the backs of both parties suggests he will be very lucky to come out of this with the business intact which creates further risk and stress to renters and owners alike. So unsurprisingly people believe he should be accountable for that.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

The wheel - well stated !!

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I don’t think David or any of his employees are evil. I don’t think they are intentionally trying to screw us.

I think they are looking out for their survival right now above all, and as such none of the decisions being made are in my best interest as a renter, or in owners best interests. They have past the point of satisfying customers (which is owners and renters), IMO.

 

[Sandisw]

While I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David. I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.

David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down. Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate. But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips. It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted. This is not to excuse David but it is reality. Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat. I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.

I don't see evil motive here. I agree with results and path to them.

I don’t think evil is the way I describe this, but rather him deciding to make decisions only with his interests in mind.

He could have allowed renters and owners to connect to work things out if at all possible, This would have reduced charge backs, reduced the number of renters needing vouchers, and kept owners and renters feeling like everyone was working together.

As an owner with a rental, I have lost confidence in the way he does business But, the good thing is we all get to decide how to evaluate his actions and whether we want to continue working with him after the choices he has made during this situation.

 

[lovethesun12]

While I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David. I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.

David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down. Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate. But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips. It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted. This is not to excuse David but it is reality. Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat. I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.

I don't see evil motive here. I agree with results and path to them.

Yes. I would like to add that here there was/is guaranteed access to interest free emergency loans for some businesses, and also a current program in place for loans of up to 6 million for med/large businesses.

Those saying he will go bankrupt are just making assumptions. I'm not saying it won't happen, but all travel related businesses are probably in for rough times. Some will suffer through and some won't.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

As a business in order to keep your customers and your revenue you follow your word - it is your good will - without going into all the accounting rules etc
Go back to the beginning of this thread and read what David posted on His websites stating he Would work on a case by case basis - then read this Whole thread for example after example of him changing his his tune to the same people time and again
Any business who I have dealt with who were awesome for years does not earn a free pass to screw me over just because they decided to look out for their own interest in a bad time and not their customers

 

[WanderlustinFP]

I would have no issues with a credit, but his new terms & conditions are more like limitations that decrease the value of my current rental agreement. I would have no recourse if he decided to change the value of the credit in any way.

 

[Dracula]

Yes. I would like to add that here there was/is guaranteed access to interest free emergency loans for some businesses, and also a current program in place for loans of up to 6 million for med/large businesses.

Those saying he will go bankrupt are just making assumptions. I'm not saying it won't happen, but all travel related businesses are probably in for rough times. Some will suffer through and some won't.

Please keep in mind David does business under his own name, as a sole proprietorship. Why in the world would he go in the hole up to $6M in order to keep operating? Also, small businesses in Canada can get emergency loans for up to Cdn$40,000 - this is about $30k, probably good for the renters booked on 1/4 of a resort closure day.

 

[Marionnette]

While I totally agree with the CC approach I think there is to much pointing of the evil finger at David. I am pretty confident that nobody, not even David can be blamed for not having a contingent plan for C19.

David had his established, safe and profitable world smashed and turned up side down. Disney with a staff of professionals including lawyers and DRs had really no better answer as reading this entire thread will demonstrate. But David has immediate issues and cancelled trips. It was a panic situation and I think poor decisions, not thought out plans and poor execution resulted. This is not to excuse David but it is reality. Disney has billions in cash and billions more in credit to keep them afloat. I am pretty David had none of that except some relationship with a level 3 attorney (or para legal) at a big firm.

I don't see evil motive here. I agree with results and path to them.

Evil? Self-interested and short-sighted is more like it.

I think I’ve said it before, as a small business owner I know that if you have good business practices, and make your customer happy, they will tell 2-5 people how wonderful you are. Piss off just one customer and they will tell the whole internet about your poor treatment of them!